Should the Rebels have lost the Battle of Endor?

Aside from the fact that it would make much more sense to have an Imperial victory, magically giving the Rebels an easy victory over a more powerful enemy just cheapens what happens in the Death Star throne room. Palpatine constantly uses the seemingly inevitable Rebel defeat to tap into Luke's anger and turn him to the dark side. But if the Rebels were to win anyway, then what point is there for Luke to even consider turning? It all becomes a psychological mind game rather than an actual temptation. Now if the Rebels were to lose in space and be forced to surrender, then it adds more to symbolism to when Luke finally throws down his lightsaber, that he would sooner accept defeat rather than give in to the dark side.

Furthermore, it means that the outcome of the lightsaber duel would actually have an effect on what's going on outside. Once Vader throws Palpatine down the reactor shaft, that leaves Luke in a position to order all Imperial forces to stand down. Or if that isn't convincing enough, Vader himself could give that order to Piett and Jerjerrod as his last act before dying.

 

So, the Throne Room Stuff gives the Rebels their cheap victory instead of the Endor Stuff? That's still the same result.

The Throne Room Stuff still matters either way because it saves Anakin and is Luke's final test as a Jedi.

 

Even if we are generous, and assume that Vader issues the withdraw command, AND that all of the Imperial forces listen, you still have the Death Star to deal with. You can't leave it in the hands of the Imperial Forces, nor does the Alliance fleet have enough personnel to leave even a skeleton crew on board. Granted, it would have been useful to still have the Death Star during the YV invasion in the EU, but for the movies, you would have to ask what happens to it. The rebel victory does not cheapen the throne room battle, either. There were two different fights going on, you had Rebels v. Imperials, and you had Jedi v. Sith. The throne room didn't win the war for the rebels, but it did serve to defeat the Sith. Luke's battle was not the Rebellion's battle. Once Luke started Jedi training, he was serving an even higher purpose than the Rebellion. Two separate, distinct battles going on, both needed to be resolved.

 

OMG ... that's rich.

 

The Death Stars never stood a chance.
On the first one, they leave a hole as big as a womp rat to the reactor core.
On the second improved one, they leave a hole you can fly the millenium falcon thru.
What kind of a suicidal maniac was designing those things anyway ???


Binks Bros Construcion Company ???

 

huh? What's wrong with that?

 

well, to be fair, voodoopuuduu , it wasn't finished yet.

 

I don't think Bigboy29 understands what I was saying...Had Luke been only serving the Rebellion, he would have stayed on Endor and helped Han & Leia destroy the shield generator. His actions in turning himself in to Darth Vader, and then consequently going before the Emperor had nothing to do with the battle between the Empire and the Rebels. With the shield generator's destruction, the Death Star, with Vader and the Emperor aboard, was going to be blown up anyway. His going there did not advance the Rebel mission. Luke actions were completely independent of the Rebel mission, he turned himself in for personal reasons, to try to convince his father, Anakin Skywalker, to cast away the Darth Vader persona that he had been wearing for the last 23 years, and to defeat the Sith. Luke was not trying to defeat the heads of the Imperial State. He was trying to defeat the Sith Lords. That they happen to be the same people is merely coincidence. Luke's mission as a Jedi Knight was to defeat the Sith, not to defeat the Empire. For Luke, the battle between the Jedi and the Sith was more important to him than the battle between the Rebels and the Empire. If that wasn't the case, he would have stayed on Endor and helped with the shield generator. His Jedi status represents a higher calling than being a Commander in the Rebellion forces. In fact, his actions probably could have warranted a court martial. A Commander, with detailed knowledge of the mission, and Rebel command structure willingly turn himself into the enemy? Borsk Fey'lya may have even considered it treasonous...Yet, Luke was serving the Force by his actions, even if it meant potentially compromising the Rebel mission.

THUS, he was serving a higher purpose than the Rebellion.

 

Darth Davi ... where on earth are you coming to this conclusion? Luke turned himself in to plead with his dad to come back to reality. Nowhere in the movie can you assume that he wanted to kick ass on the Sith and destroy them.
Where are you getting this?

 

But, Darth Stewie was told it was an aesthetic choice by the architect.

 

You mean besides everything that Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi told him? The parts about destroying the Sith? The whole training in TESB, where Yoda trains Luke specifically to defeat the Emperor and Vader, who conveniently enough, happen to be the two Sith Lords in question?

Luke turning himself in to Imperial forces was not part of the Rebel plan to destroy the shield generator. Luke does it anyway, abandoning his mission with the Rebels, in favor of pursuing a personal mission. He put his personal goals ahead of the Rebellion goals. Perhaps you assume that there is only one meaning of destroy...When Luke successfully converts Anakin back, did that action not destroy one of the Sith? Darth Vader was destroyed, and in his place, Anakin Skywalker reemerged. His reemergence as Anakin then directly led to Darth Sidious being destroyed. Luke accomplishes his mission.

Any military commander who intentionally surrenders himself to the enemy, outside of mission parameters, clearly has to be putting something ahead of the mission. The goal of the Rebels on Endor was to destroy the shield generator, so the space fleet could move in on the Death Star. That's it. Yet, Luke, who was a part of that Rebel group, abandons everyone, to pursue his own private mission. Luke surrendering was not part of the mission, he was going off on his own. Luke Skywalker stopped being Rebel Commander, and acted as Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight. Did his surrendering help the Rebels on Endor? No. In fact, with the presence of a Jedi, its entirely likely the job would have been accomplished far smoother. Did Luke's surrendering to Vader help the space fleet? No. Who did it help though? It helped the cause of the Jedi. Luke was a Jedi. They were Sith. Luke abandons his mission on Endor in favor of confronting Vader and the Emperor. Just because you automatically assume that destroying the Sith means killing the Sith, is not really my problem. The Sith cease to be, as a direct result of Luke's actions. Actions that went completely against the mission on Endor. Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi to defeat the Sith. That was kind of the whole purpose of Luke being a Jedi. Neither thought Anakin could be redeemed, that Luke could turn Anakin back was only an added bonus, one that only Luke thought worth pursuing, not part of Yoda or Kenobi's plan. They trained Luke to defeat both the Emperor and Vader. When Luke turned himself in to Vader, he knew that Vader would bring him before the Emperor. This is why he already attempts to turn Vader while still on the surface...clearly, if he could convince Anakin Skywalker to cast off the dark side ahead of meeting Palpatine, two Jedi going against Palpatine have better odds than he would have had by himself. Do you seriously believe that once Luke converted Anakin back, that he wouldn't have made an attempt to kill Palpatine, had he not been crippled by the lightning? Look at the facts.

Luke is trained as a Jedi Knight by Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi, both of whom tell him that his father is beyond redemption, and that it is his job to defeat Vader and the Emperor.

Luke abandons his mission on Endor, to confront Vader, which conveniently puts him in a position to challenge the Emperor.

Luke destroys one of the Sith, his father, by turning him back to the light side.

That converted ex-Sith destroys the other Sith by throwing him down a shaft.

End result? Both Sith are destroyed. One physically, one mentally/philosophically.

Luke did this as a Jedi, combating the evils of the Sith, not as Commander Skywalker, combating the evils of the Empire. Luke's identity was that of a Jedi, not as a Rebel Commander. Jedi is who Luke is, Commander in the Rebel military is just his job. The Death Star, with the Emperor on it, was going to be destroyed anyway. However, it was the responsibility of the Jedi to defeat the Sith. Had Luke stayed on Endor, the Sith still would have been destroyed, but not in a way that validates the sum of Luke's training. Others could have done it, but, as the sole living Jedi in t

 

That was not the bone of contention, DD.

It was your assertion that Luke's mindset was on destroying the SITH on DS2. I still don't think that was his plan.

 

And yet that is exactly what gets accomplished, isn't it? His former Jedi Masters trained him to do exactly that...I just think you are hung up on how you are defining "destroy". If Luke merely wanted to talk to daddy again, he could have done so while still on Endor. Yet, he willingly goes with Vader to the Death Star, where he knows he will be taken to the Emperor. Luke gets what he wants...the only Jedi in the galaxy in the same room as the only two Sith in the galaxy. Luke throws down his lightsaber not because he refuses to kill his father. He does it because he realizes that he is angry, that Palpatine has successfully manipulated him to the point that he is using the dark side to do it. It wasn't the act, it was the attitude. Luke would have struck down his father if he deemed in necessary. He tried to convert him back, but that is just a case of hoping for the best, and planning for the worst. Luke knew going in that if he failed to talk his father into turning back, that he might be forced to kill him. He had a duty as the only Jedi in the galaxy to try to eliminate the Sith, one way or another. And what happens? When Luke enters the Death Star, there are two Sith. When Luke leaves the Death Star, there are none. Mission accomplished.

 

Though what with his constant refusal to kill his own father, I think it's safe to say that destroying the Sith wasn't his primary objective. He went to Vader just to make him turn back to the Light Side. He was disappointed that Darth "then my father is truly dead" Vader takes him to the Emperor - he didn't count on it.
"When Luke enters, there are two Sith Lords, when he leaves there are none" is more of a correlation, really. All the time spent on the Death Star (except when he swings at the Emperor) is used to try to redeem Vader. Luke didn't destroy the Sith, Anakin did. Solely because of Luke, but that doesn't make it Luke's mission. In fact, he seemed to care little about the Emperor's presence either way.

 

Yep.

And your assertion that Luke was dissapointed ... that Vader cuffed & stuffed him, and took him to DS2 ... is how it comes across in ROTJ.

Nowhere ... I mean nowhere do I get the sense that Luke is rubbing his hands together with a smirk, thinking "My plan to destroy the Sith is all coming together now!"

 

Yeah, he didn't manipulate events Palpatinesque so that his capture would guarantee the downfall of the Sith.

But I'd still call the whole Vader business a "higher purpose than the Rebellion"

 

I see what you are saying, but it isn't quite right because Luke threw his lightsaber away - you can't exactly kill two Sith Lords without one. Luke's mission was never to destroy the Sith - that was Yoda and Obi-Wan's mission for him. Luke walked in to the death star attempting to redeem his father and he did it - he facilitated Anakin's return and allowed for his father's redemption. From there Luke's mission was complete and he was a hero. But make no mistake - Anakin had to CHOOSE to follow the path Luke opened up for him, he could have let Sidious kill Luke and gone on being a Sith. So it was Anakin who overcame Vader (with Luke being the redeemer) and that is when Anakin fulfilled the prophecy as the chosen one - finally destroying the Sith once and for all and bringing balance to the force.

Luke's role was crucial because he could have killed Vader and game over. But Luke is a hero precisely because he remained focused on his goal of redeeming his dad and didn't allow his momentary dance with the dark side, or Yoda and Obi-Wan's desires distract him from that ultimate purpose.

 

Many folks do ... but did Luke?

I would have liked to see a scene where Luke is frantically looking to transmit a message to GoldLeader or Ackbar to "call off the strike! I got Vader - and the Emperor is dead! Call it off!"

OR

Prior to the battle, Luke giving a line to Mothma or Ackbar about saying ... "Hey, if I can get my dad to switch, we can end this war today!"

Something like that would reinforce that the 'Vader business' was his ultimate purpose.

But as it stands, I don't think there's enough evidence to say Luke was more concerned with the Sith - as opposed to the Empire.


I think alot of this speculation about Luke comes from the PT. Since 1999 when Jinn told everyone to leave and "we'll handle this .." we have had this notion that the Jedi/Sith struggle is more special or "higher" to the War.

 

He thinks it more important because he uh leaves to do it. Why would he do that if he thought it didn't matter as much? He does what he thinks he has to do and lets the Rebels do what they think they have to do
The Death Star still needed to be destroyed. Why would the gunners stop firing? They have a standing order to fire at will. Dead Sith Lords can't (and if they can, won't) tell them to stop.

 

Because Luke and Vader were close to being blown up .... Luke might have tried to transmit a cease or pause fire since him and his dying pops were about to be blown up.

I don't think he cared about being the last Jedi or anything.


EDIT: oh yeah, and just because people "leave to do things" - doe'nt make those things higher - Anakin killing T.Raiders, that Ewok who stole the bike, etc.

Luke did something he wanted, maybe a little greedy? Can you see it that way?

 

As a Jedi, aspiring or real one, he would have sacrificed himself to stop the Death Star. I'm sure Anakin would have agreed. Just because Luke thinks it's more important to him to save his dad, doesn't mean he'll interfere with the Rebels.

Anakin didn't leave to kill the Tuskens, he left to save his mother - that was obviously the most important thing to him, above his order from the Jedi Council to protect the Senator who happens to be the love of his life. If that doesn't mean it's important, nothing does. Killing the Tuskens was just as much a reaction as rushing at Vader for threatening your sister. Nothing to do with thinking.

 

I always envisioned the two events being intertwined through the force. As long as the cloud of the dark side of the force enveloped the battlefield, the rebels did not have a chance. Luke, by drawing the ire of the Emperor and Vader towards him (and also creating conflict within vader) was able to lift the cloud of the dark side of the force from the battle field.

If luke is on the planet when the shield generator goes down, Vader is free to hop in his fighter and prevent the death star from being destroyed.

If luke is not occupying the emperor and vader, then the field commander at the base gives constant relays about the tactical situation and does not do bonehead things like open the doors and send the rest of the troops into the forest....

If the emperor and vader escape the destruction of the death star, they go to the nearest star destroyer and lead the attack of the fleet against the scattered rebel fleet.....

with the emperor dead, the galaxy is forced to find a new leader....

the battle in the throne room is not just an afterthought....

 

Should the Rebels have lost the Battle Of Endor?

Hmm.

I think that anytime your allies are intelligent teddy bears that have trouble seeing over a countertop, much less plausibly defeating a detachment of Stormtroopers and Biker Scouts, then yes, the Rebels should have lost, but, see, Uncle George was apparently fresh out of ideas and he also had to end the trilogy at some point.

If any of them Ewoks had tried to tie me to a pole like some deer, we would've had a problem.

If I was a smuggler with an eight-foot tall space Sasquatch who had my back, I'm not havin' some teddy bear
thing rollin' up on the set.

 

I think more focus on the bows and arrows being able to be fired at a rapid speed wouldve sold the idea more that it can pierce a troopers armor (Ala "Predators" shot of the improvised arrow piercing a tree). I understood what they were aiming for in ROTJ but id probably clearly show how these Ewoks pulled this job off.

 

Yeah ... it was campy fun.

If you watch AOTC battle, then watch ROTJ - it's like going from a battle in Saving Ryan's Privates to a fight from the old Batman show -

But the Ewoks won, somehow they pulled off a great ambush. So my answer to the posed question is NO.