Sifo Dyas could be mistaken for Qui-Gon

The trouble with this is the fact that it bases the whole of Sidious Campaign on the hope that someone orders an army, Sidious is in position, when Maul says:

"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi"

Why can the Sith reveal themselves? becaise the final few pieces are in motion, I think personally the Clone army was already in the works and in Sidious hands by this time. Sidious order it himself, and framed Sifo-Dyas. The Dark Side clouds the Jedi's vision, so they can't see whats coming; it only makes sense to have Sidious order it

 

TPM takes place during 32 BBY, the same year Dyas is killed. It is within the realm of possibility that Dyas ordered the army before TPM events, and Palpatine was secretly contacting Dooku to be an apprentice, or at least was giving him that impression to use him for his own means. Then Maul dies so Sidious goes "oh, well new apprentice." I don't think it doesn't make sense that Dyas ordered the army and Palaptine just took advatage.

 

The point is that it's good advice in general. It's applicable to either topic. We should not expect Yoda's stance on assumptions to suddenly change to "assumptions are conclusions" just because the topic has changed.

Wookieepedia entries, if valid, are derived from other sources. That entry is based on the most straightforward reading of a passage from LOE which we have already been discussing here.

 

I won't dispute the wisdom in the advice, but is an impression and an assumption the same thing? Obi-Wan would appear to be commenting on an event that he was probably aware of already. I'm sure when a Jedi dies, esecially a council member as they would need to elect a replacement, the news is passed throught the order and everyone at least knows that they died, even if they don't know how. So is he making an assumption when he says "I was under the impression he was killed before that." However, it could be said that Obi-Wan's memory on te subject is "fuzzy."

So then there is no debate on whether or not Dyas commissioned the army. He did and Palpatine assumed control upon Dyas' death.


It is also worth noting that the term "almost" is in front of "ten years ago." That means that the order cold have taken place eleven or even twelve years before Obi-Wan discovers the clones, as it is only approximated at "ten years ago." I can say "World war II happened almost 50 years ago," doesn't mean it was a literal 50 years rather it was close to 50 years.

 

You were saying that some believed ROTS would give clarification to the Dyas mystery. I myself believe the AOTC already answered it by suggesting he was dead before the order was placed. With that going forward the Jedi would move on to different suspects and so would the audience. You believe Obi-Wan was wrong about Dyas. Based on the EU you believe that Dyas was alive during the time the order was placed and believe he himself made the order based on a paragraph from LOE. I interpret the paragraph quite differently based on who is speaking and who he is speaking to.

Lies of commission and lies of omission are both acts of deception. In this case, Sidious is committing lies of ommission. He is giving a false impression to the Senate which he is withholding information from and is subverting the truth to manipulate them into altering their behavior to suit his desires.

Whoa! You edited out the middle sentence between those two which was my main point. In it I point out that the lie is Sidious's feelings towards Padme's safety. He lies to her about wanting her to stay and you ignored it to post sarcastic remarks.

You were the one who wanted me to point out more of his lies and you completely ignored it here and distorted my point. In fact, I can't tell if you are fine with my other points that you haven't quoted or not because you do not acknowledge them.

Yes he did. He split the Republic in two by creating a civil war. There is the Galactic Republic and the Confederacy of Independent Systems. His actions are directly linked to it and when he tells the Jedi he won't let the Republic be split in two, he lies as he has every intention to do so. It doesn't matter if he plans on bringing it back together under an Empire years later, he still lies.

"Excellent. Everything is going as planned" - Darth Sidious at the end of AOTC


So what happens, Zam Wesell tries to assasinate Senator Amidala but fails and is surprised she had a decoy. Something Sidious knows all too well by now that she has. The person who hired this bounty hunter is the TEMPLATE FOR THE CLONE ARMY. Rather risky using him isn't it? Palpatine, in light of the failed assassination attempt ensures that two Jedi protect Senator Amidala. Hardly something you'd do if you want the next attempt to be successful. She of course fails and Jango shoots her to death with something that can be traced back to Kamino which is why you wouldn't use the template for the clone army to be involved in the assassination attempts unles

 

Then every act -- including every utterance ever made by anyone -- is an act of so-called "deception", since something is always omitted. Thus everything is "deception" and the concept has been utterly drained of substantive meaning.

You have no way to prove that he did not want her to stay for his own purposes. He said it would be safer to stay... which it was, as your "wipe them out" citation adequately proved.

When he says he won't let the Republic be split in two, the above is already the situation. By saying as much, he is announcing his intention to prevent the Separatists from ultimately becoming successful in this... which he did.

Which doesn't preclude the use of backup plans, and doesn't indicate precisely when the specifics of the current version of the plan were finalized.

Because we all know how much he cares for her safety. Wait, was that a lie or not? I'm getting confused.

The droids don't find anything regarding Kamino because there is no symbology or other such features on the dart which identify Kamino as the source. It's only recognizable to those who have significant experience in that exact area of space. It's not meant to lead Core-dwellers to the planet.

As I already said: So the two need to work together, you say? Meaning that Anakin needs Palpatine to make it happen? Meaning that Palpatine has the power to make it happen by working with Anakin?

Furthermore, Palpatine never said that Plagueis had the power to "cheat death". Strange, isn't it, that Plagueis supposedly achieved this great power, while Palpatine knew about it, and yet Palpatine still foolishly killed him before learning it?

 

No. Lying by Commission and Omission are only relevant to the subjects they pertain to. Its the vital information that you say or don't say that is intentionally subverting the truth of the subject at hand. You aren't intentionally withholding information about the last time you fell down the stairs in this conversation, its just not relevant to the subject at hand.

My "wipe them out" comment proves that he didn't care for her to live any longer at that point. Do you honestly believe he cared for her well being when he told her to stay there where its safe? Doesn't the TPM novel say Jar Jar notices a smile on Palpatine's face at the end of the scene where Amidala says she's going back to Naboo? Seems like he's happy to see her go.

It's just movement up until AOTC. Nothing has been made official by the time he is speaking to the Jedi. Thus in the opening crawl where it says they have declared their "intentions" to leave the Republic.

When he says he won't let the Republic be split in two, he is lying. He wants the Republic to be split in two so that a civil war will break out.

Because Lucas tossed that dialogue in there to ensure the audience understands it was the plan to land in the hangar and nothing else? Right. What is it you believe the audience is meant to take away from this after watching the movie? The line comes directly after Dooku tells him the good news about the war beginning. The audience will then believe whatever they did or had done to get the war started is going according to plan and they are pleased with how it happened. I think its safe to say that whatever plans he's referring to are the ones between he and Dooku.

Because we all know how much he cares for her safety. Wait, was that a lie or not? I'm getting confused. [/quote]


But you neglect what changed between "wipe them out" and AOTC. That being Anakin coming to Palpatine's notice.

However you interpret the scene, the Analysis Droid cannot identify it. Thus Obi-Wan goes to a local proprietor he knows. While not everyone on Coruscant can identify it, its still the melting pot of the galaxy where you'd have best chance possible to find someone who knows something about it. Sidious can plan for that easily. Especially since the Kaminoans are businessmen. Creatures do business with them. Dexter Jettster is not the only one on Coruscant who could identify it.

Also, didn't the AOTC novel have the SP-4 droid state that their records a very thorough when Obi-Wan challenges its conclusion? If all mentions of Kamino were erased, it would say that wouldn't it? The implication is that whether there are markings or no markings on the dart but instead funny little grooves, the droid would never be

 

In fact I'm going to re post what I said in the post above yours Fenn.

You completely ignored it in your last post. I have a good mind to end this debate here.




EDIT: In fact, we've derailed this thread enough. It's about Dyas being mistaken for Qui-Gon. Thus this needs to end.

 

Ah, but who decides what information is "vital", allowing the historical definition of lying to be subjectively and inconsistently thrown out the window?

Apparently you do, it seems.

Is that what I said in my post, or are you fabricating positions for me?

Doesn't the TPM film show the same thing?

No, he's not. He doesn't let the Republic split in two. It didn't happen.

One more time: backup plans.

So we're back to "lying by omission". Look up the definition of lie in a dictionary, and see if it says anything about "ensuring the best possible outcome for poor little helpless Anakin". It's clear you're really not talking about lying at all anymore, but a completely different concept: sheltering the listener from all possible non-optimal choices.

Not if they remain mortal and are thus still fated to die, and not according to James Luceno.

Possible comparison between Sifo-Dyas and Qui-Gon is still relevant here. We have precedent in Qui-Gon for certain respected Jedi Masters acting on their own without authorization of the Council and even "defying" the Council. In one interpretation, Sifo-Dyas was one of these types. In another, he was essentially selected at random.

 

Technically the republic does get split in two during the Clone Wars

Also he implies he would know the power to cheat death severaltimes:

Palptine: He taught his apprentice everything he knew - Wrong, Sidious did not know this power
Palptine: Only through me can you learn the power to save your wife from certain death; Wrong again, Sidious then stated they would have to learn it together, essentially he was no more wise on it the Anakin was, and also, as Yoda said, his wifes death wasn't certain - always in motion is the future

 

Two things: 1) He doesn't specify who "he" is; 2) There's a difference between having your master's knowledge and being able to duplicate his achievements.

I already answered this, twice. You're holding up two entirely consistent statements and acting as if there is some discrepancy between them. There is not. "Only through me can you learn the power". Check. Any more Sith running around at that point? "They would have to learn it together". Check. If they have to learn it together, Anakin needs Palpatine to learn it.

 

Okay I am going to step in here. Guys we really need to stop cherry picking individual sentences to reply to and actually try and have a discussion here. Arawn I am looking at you... Please remember that these big long line-by-line type replies are generally not allowed in PT. If you have any questions, please read the forum rules. In addition, please use the edit function with caution. Going back for an entire hour and editing a post up to ten times to add things is bad etiquette. We can do better than this. I don't want to have to turn the edit time in this forum down to some tiny amount. Let's just be mindful of how we're debating these concepts. Prepare a response, don't nitpick. Thanks!