Slaughtering Children

But my reply isn't 'but he killed children!', it's 'Padme's personality is inclusive, loving and non-selfish, she should have felt more saddened by their deaths than she was.' I think the very qualities that would allow her to eventually forgive him would cause her more outrage at the original confession. Other characters viewed Tuskens as monsters, she wouldn't have. That's my point.

 

But Padme has seen what the Tuskens are capable of at the Podrace in TPM. She saw them shoot at all the racers including Anakin who was a 10-year old boy at the time. By AOTC, she hears Cliegg Lars say that they killed 26 people that tried to rescue Shmi and that he lost his leg in the process of this failed attempt. It's difficult for Padme to be upset by what Anakin did to the Tuskens when she knows that they are just as monstorous as he was.

 

People, there is a difference between the slaughter of the Tusken and Jedi children. The slaughter of the Tuskens was a crime of passion, and the slaughter of the Jedi children was done in cold blood. THAT's why Padme was surprised. She even thinks about it in the Revenge of the Sith junior novelization by Patrica Wrede. If you don't believe me, here is a passage:

"Not Anakin!" Padme protested. "He couldn't!" But he had, once before---when he murdered the Sand People who'd killed his mother. He was angry then. He lost control. He wouldn't just...He wouldn't!

 

Agreed.

"I, couldn't... stop myself. I-I, destroyed their camp and slaughtered them all like animals. I hate them!" -- No need to rub our faces in the blood of the little ones and mommas. Less would have been more, there.

 

Additionally, we're forgetting the build-up to the younglings reveal. Obi-Wan, who Padme knows and trusts, tells her that Anakin is evil and has killed younlings, the closest thing to his own children a Jedi is supposed to have. Padme, pregnant with Anakin's child defends him to Obi-Wan, only to be proven wrong. It's understandable for her to be more moved by this than his "understandable" rage for which he feels guilt. Not only have the circumstances changed, but it must also be closer to home for it to be the children of the Jedi order.

 

I beg to disagree - with the assumption he killed at least 15 - it was no longer a "crime of passion." I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think a jury would buy multiple deaths as crimes of passion.

Earlier in the thread, when I was disageeing, I was disageeing with the comment that Anakin was right to kill the Tusken young because "they'd grow up to be adults." In THAT sense the Jedi youngling killing WAS the same.

 

Oh, I quite agree as many of you are pointing out but I continue to disagree with the notion that killing the Tusken young was okay because they would grow up to be adult Tusken.

That is exactly the same as saying the Jedi kids should be killed because they would grow up to be adults.

And that indeed has been said by some on more than one thread.

 

What?! Who ever said that the killing of the Tusken kids was okay?

 

They would if they knew that the people Anakin killed were involved in the kidnapping, torture, and murder of his mother.

Except the Jedi are suppose to be Anakin's allies. They all trusted him including the younglings and he betrayed them all because he wouldn't let go of his fear of losing Padme.

 

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point?

 

I don't know about this Valairy_Scot, a murder can be downgraded to voluntary manslaughter if it happens because an individual catches their spouse cheating on them. In this case, if a man grabbed a golf club and killed both his wife and her lover, it would still be considered voluntary manslaughter. As terrible as infidelity is, seeing your mother tortured and having her die in your arms is, in my opinion, exponentially worse. And would likely induce an equally extreme response.

We also have to consider that Anakin was already armed upon entering the camp, so it's not as though he would have to search for a weapon, and he's extremely powerful. If an ordinary man killed dozens of people with a sword, it would doubtlessly take him a quite a while. But Anakin has superhuman abilities and the Tuskens merely have woefully outdated weaponry. I think, in this instance, it's possible that it wouldn't have taken Anakin long at all to wipe out the camp. At least not long enough for him calm down.

Remember, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If adultery can allow you to kill two people (one of whom you claim to love) as a crime of passion, then torture and death, I'd imagine, could push an individual into an even less rational frame of mind. Just my two cents on the matter, though.

 

It is somewhat pointless to "argue" how long it took Anakin to kill however many Tuskens he killed because we know the answer to neither question.

I also find it abhorrent to hang the answer on how many deaths are understandable in what time frame so I don't wish to discuss ("argue") that particular point.

I don't think killing in passion is a defense, at least morally. It can be a mitigating factor and play into the severity of the charge and punishment.

 

A couple of facts here.

1) ANH shows three ARMED Tusken warriors flee from what they think is a danger.
So it is clearly established that Tusken CAN and DO run away from danger.
So to assume that every last Tusken blindly charged Anakin, hedless of their own lives is not only illogical it also runs counter to Tusken behavior.

2) We see Anakin kill three Tusken before the cut, all three he killed with his lightsaber and he did not use super speed. So from the film there is no basis at all to assume that Anakin when through the camp at lightning speed or used any kind of force powers.

3) In RotS, Padme does not know the details of the jedi killing, all she knows is that Obi-Wan says that Anakin has killed children, not if it was in cold blood or heat of the moment.

To sum up, time to kill ALL Tuskens in a camp of about 20 tents. I very much think this would take much more than the 30 seconds some here seem to argue. He has to search each tent, chase after those that run and yes some WOULD run. I do not duspute that some Tusken would attack him and yes he would kill them with ease but it still will take time.
So while we do not know how much time it took some here say with certainty that it was very quick. There is no evidence for that, true there is no direct evidence that it took several hours either but given the size of the camp, how Anakin killed the first three Tuskens and his later statement that he killed them all, a longer timeframe than 30-40 seconds is very likely.

About Padme, her biggest flaw is not telling Anakin that he needs help and that he should inform Obi-Wan about what happened, that is VERY irresponsible on both her and Anakins part.

Regards
Nordom

 

Sorry forgot one other thing,

About a person finding his wife in bed with another man and he kills both.
To fit Anakin this person would then kill the mans entire family and then everyone in the area. Would this still be viewed as a crime of passion? I doubt it.

Speed? Well assume that this person just happens to have a big bomb in his car and after he kills his wife and the man, he goes to his car, takes out the bomb, arms it, drives away and it blows, destroying the whole area. Would this still be a crime of passion?

Regards
Nordom

 

This is what I think:

Morally, should he have gone after Tusken children? No.

However, can I understand why he did it in the heat of the moment? Yes. For all he cared, every single Tusken was responsible. Even if they didn't lay a finger on Shmi, they allowed the tortures to continue instead of smuggling her out to safety.

 

Nordom, I don't mean to be a pain or to sound churlish, but almost every time a thread on this comes up (and there have been a few), you make the same critical and/or incriminating points time and time again, which are almost all refuted as baseless, only for you to continually repost them as if nothing was ever said. It gets tiring. Here would be the perfect, most well worn example:

And as many have pointed out, these examples showcase two DIFFERENT circumstances... almost entirely. In ANH Obi-Wan clearly knows how to startle the Tuskens and summons a method suitable... either that or it is something about him that directly startles them (a previous confrontation could be likely, or the fact he's a Jedi.... you have to wonder what kind of event from the past would make Tuskens afraid of a Jedi ). But even that they are startled by this particular sound or vision of Obi-Wan alone, it doesn't mean that if they saw their own being murdered, on their own territory, they would not unite to try and put an immediate end to it. The method Obi-Wan uses to startle them at first - the the call of the Krayt dragon - may harken back to something that goes to the core of the Tuskens wildest fears, and represent something we don't understand; a myth, a legend, even a superstition. Obi-Wan's assessment that they're "easily startled" might well be owed solely to this or his well ascertained Jedi status alone. Remember they're not so startled that they wont "be back in greater numbers" as Obi-Wan warns. This implies they are not alien to putting up a fight if they feel they can better their odds. Cowards run and stay running. That they will come back at all highlights its probably not that simple. You don't become a tribe of feared "monsters" by getting a reputation for being cowards:

"Thirty of us went out after her. Four of us came back"

And remember, if ANH was the authority on all Tusken behaviour regardless of the situation (as you seem to insist it is) wouldn't it be contradictory for the tuskens we do see react to Anakin's attack to run towards him??? They're not being cowards. Sure, they're startled. But they move towards Anakin to try and stop him. What makes you think the other tuskens would have done anything different when they appeared from their huts? They're an aggressive tribe. They're going to rightfully try and protect their own (territory and personnel included)

And this proves.... what exactly?

 

What are you talking about?!

Shmi's kidnap was a tribal crime. A crime by more than one. That Tusken tribe captured and tortured her over a prolonged period. The same tribe killed 26 of those who tried to rescue her. How can you equate it to a single individual's crime?!

The most suitable hypothetical example would be a known gang taking part in a crime against one of your own... not with an individual sleeping with your wife. You might argue that Anakin did not know which of the individuals took part in or contributed to Shmi's death, but in a way, they're all at least complicit in it because not one of them appeared to do anything to help her. It was normal, everyday life for them.

This is not to excuse Anakin, of course. Two wrongs dont make a right. But you cant equate what Anakin does with blowing up a largely innocent town to commit revenge against one person. Thats just laughable. That tribe, as one, committed an act of prolonged murder against Shmi. In revenge, Anakin committed the same sentence onto that tribe.

 

Well I've made no assumptions. I've only highlighted alternative possibilities. I've not tried to prove anything via this route. I'm in no way sure of what happened during the tusken slaughter. And I grow lethargic of people who do make assumptions on deliberately ambiguous elements, only to use such a platform to find fault with the films (especially when counter possibilities exist and are easily sourced). I mean, whats the aim of "fans" here? To see the movies in the best and most consistent possible light? Or is there some other agenda lurking? I know what my intention is. And I would make no apology for it. Those who want to find fault for the sake of it can do so. But I still think its a baseless argument to say that the tusken raiders would have almost certainly fled Anakin during the assault, simply from what we see in ANH. As I've said, we only see the ones present before the cut run towards Anakin, not away from him. My position here is one of uncertainty. I'm happy to accept that the specifics of what went on from the moment we cut to Yoda meditating, until the moment Anakin returns to the Homestead, is basically unknown, save for the general outline Anakin gives us later. There are others however who will argue that we can actually work out certain specifics, if not a large share of everything that happened (when they're only really speculating), if of course it suits the idea that the films are in some way flawed.

 

You made a great point earlier, d_arblay. Maybe the tusken raiders in ANH fear Obi-Wan because of something he had done earlier, but they may also fear him because he's a Jedi... and so was Anakin when he did what he did to them in AOTC.