so was anakin skywalker a product of palpatine's experiment or what?

"Lucas Quotes" are as viable inside of canon as any Newbie's posts are, here at TFN. If scripts are rubbish when it comes to canon, then so are quotes. And, all we're left with is: Qui-Gon's POV based upon a possibly misread prophecy and Palpatine's Opera-house story. As presented, that Trilogy-spanning origins' question wasn't left to be answered definitively. Neither POV offered to us contradicts or invalidates the other... so the debate will never end.

 

I think i remember Palpatine saying he killed Plagius before Plagius could find the secret to keeping people from dying, and that he would need Anakin's help to finish Plagius' work, was it in the novelization maybe?

I forget if that also included creating life as well? Palpatine claimed he had the power to create and save life just to tempt Anakin and turn him, then says that Plagius only started the work, and that Palpatine and Anakin would have to complete it if Anakin would be able to save Padme?

I'll have to dig around for my RotS novel when i get home


Because if in the same part where he tells Anakin the Sith can create life, he also says that he has the power to keep Padme from dying, then later reveals he actually doesnt yet have the power to keep Padme from dying, then you could think the create life part was also a lie.

 

agreed..this is just gonna as endless debate..cause nobody considers ANYTHING as canon anymore..heck even the name Star Wars,or which is the true color of the sky is being questioned!!

Shadojoker

 

Exactly, there is no definitive answer that Anakin was created by anyone other than the Force (according to Mace Windu in the movies), so stating that he was Palpatine's or Plagueius' creation definitively is just flat out wrong.

On Lucas quotes, I would agree somewhat in that he changes his mind and it can be hard to keep up, but we're not talking about Abel Pena or Pablo Hidalgo quotes here, we're talking about the guy that created it all. That's a bit different. He can change a character's history with the flick of a pen (see, Clone Wars).

 

Mace Windu never said that Anakin was created by the Force in ANY movie.

What WAS said in the movies is:

A.) it was possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians (said by Jinn)

B.) a Sith Lord could manipulate the midi-chlorians to create life (said by Palpatine)


Therefore:

A^2 + B^2 = C^2

where

C.) conceived by the midi-chlorians because they were manipulated by a sith lord

 

As a theory, you can say C
But there is no definite answer either way

 

Mace doesn't say it in context alone, it's when you put Qui-Gon's assumption, and Mace's answer:

QUI-GON
A boy... his cells have the highest
concentration of midi-chlorians I
have seen in a life form. It is
possible he was conceived by the
midi-chlorians.

MACE WINDU
You're referring to the prophesy of
the one who will bring balance to
the Force...you believe it's this
boy??


So, it stands up as much as any "answer" out there. i.e. none that you can point to and say it's so.

 

Bingo. Canon became a complete joke the day Lucas was quoted saying like this: "(...After the saga ended) Luke didn't get married, the Emperor had no clones and the story ended." If we take Lucas at his word, EVERYTHING after RoTJ is null and void. Add that one to the laundry list of contradictions and its easy to see why lots of fans ignore whatever he says. I just wish he had the stones to tell his friends "no, its my story..." *sigh* but he didn't. And now, Anakin has no father and Darth Vader cries about his wife. I have to find that Maul quote about "the (Sith)experiment on Tatooine"... canon-monkey-wrench if there ever was one.

 

Rhonderoo i remember in multiple occassion Mace "indirectly" said Anakin was the chosen One regarding Anakin's conception from the Force..in Revenge of the Sith on the ship w/Obi-wan & Yoda,in AOTC with Mace,Yoda, and Obi-wan walking thru the Halls of the Jedi Temple..then Obi-wan said "His abilities have made him...arrogant." Can someone add on this?

Shadojoker

 

rhonderoo - Jinn says midis and Mace says chosen one and bringing balance to the force. He never says, implies, or in any context theorizes conception by the Force. Their conversation deals with conception via midis referring to a prophecy of bringing balance to the force. It in no way, shape, or form, deals with conception via the Force

Shadojoker - Mace and other Jedi refer to Anakin as the chosen one in all 3 PT movies, but they never mention Anakin being conceived by the Force. TWO entirely different concepts.

 

Absolutely see what you're saying, it's never stated, in the context that says Anakin is the Chosen One, therefore must be created by the Force. That same context would be Palpatine stating that Plagueius learned to manipulated midi-chlorians and using that to summize that Anakin was the product of Plagueius' manipulation. There's nothing anywhere that directly states that, not even remotely. The good news is in fanon, you can see it however you want.

 

i understand but the chosen one in my opinion means "The Holy One" or destined by the will of the Force.. as I stated before.. If Plagueus or Papydious "created" Anakin then he would be the "Pre-Chosen One" and not the Chosen One..

Why would A Sith Lord create something that would bring balance to the force by destroying itself? It's like what people were saying about Jesus Christ was demon-possessed while he WAS casting out demons!!?? It's just NOT possible!! His response was beautiful

Mark 3:21-26 (New International Version)
21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[a]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."

23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.


Point being..Sith Would/Could Not "Create" a chosen one to Wipe themselves out..doesn't make any sense..fanon or canon..Anakin is the Chosen One created by the Force..the Chosen One = undetermined or affected by mankind/aliens/etc.. thus its NOT two entire different concepts..in my opinion!! Anybody who denies this logical cross-reference must be on death sticks!!

Shadojoker

 

In a world where everything tastes like chicken, I prefer ostrich.
Makes for some really good nachos.

 

Sith wouldn't create something that destroyed themselves...

Isn't that what every single Banite Sith did?

 

I still dont understand why Palpatine would not have told Anakin any of this directly. It would have very easily brought him over to the dark side and made him his apprentice.

That's the big hole in this theory for me

 

The difference being that a Sith manipulating midis to create life IS stated. The Force manipulating midis to create life IS NOT stated - or implied.

The analogy isn't accurate for a number of reasons. Jesus did not turn evil, join the devil, and then get redeemed. Jesus is also God.

The Sith could create their own destruction just like Anakin created the situation that led to Padme's death, something he was trying to avoid after all. It's called irony and tragedy, and has been around since storytelling began. Think Oedipus and Shakespeare.

Do you really think that the Force creating a being that puts the Force further into darkness and unbalance while enslaving the galaxy and destroying the Jedi is more plausible than the Sith creating their own destruction in a quest for more power? Death sticks laced with spice!!!

 

I dont think there was ever supposed to be a direct analogy or a re-telling of the Jesus story. I think it was just similar in that a mortal being was created by a higher being

It would also be ironic that the very being the force created in response to the growing dark side power was one that would almost destroy the jedi

We still dont know for sure either way

The Force doesnt control free will, so i dont see how this is that crazy of a theory.

I find it hard to believe that Palpatine knew the Sith created Anakin yet did not use that to bring him to the dark side


In the novel Palpatine says:
"That power only my Master truly achieved, but together we will find it"
So if anything, it seems it would be Plagius who created Anakin.

I dont know, I just find it hard to believe that something that large as the person who created Anakin was mentioned barely twice in the movies and hardly at all at that, and never definitively gave the answer to Anakin's creation.

It's just such a large plot point to be completely glossed over and barely implied

But again, there is no definite answer either way

 

The difference being that a Sith manipulating midis to create life IS stated. The Force manipulating midis to create life IS NOT stated - or implied.



But it's not stated that the Sith manipulated midis to create Anakin, so it's just as much conjecture as saying that the Force manipulated midichlorians - it's never clarified, and may never be. We can argue this into the ground, but there is not one iota of proof that Anakin was created by the Sith. Not even Merk's dancing Mon Cal. And until GL comes out and says he was or lets someone write down in continuity that he is, we're where we are now. Which is fan speculation, but nothing more, either way. I hope I don't come off as snarky, this is just one of my biggest peeves in the fandom, and one of those things that seems to always get posted as "fact" when it's not.

 

yeah mine too

neither theory is confirmed, and there is just as much "evidence" for both sides. If you choose to believe the lines thrown out by Palpatine, fine, but if someone doesnt agree, it doesnt make them wrong

 

So IF Darth Maul called the boy who Jinn found on Tatooine the "Sith Experiment", what would that mean to the "Sith didn't make Anakin" crowd? Better yet, what would that mean IU?

 

I don't think the analogy is there at all, but the poster made the analogy so I was responding to that. I don't think the Force is a divine "being" at all, it is an energy field according to the movies.

Not snarky at all, hope mine isn't either. Just good debate. One of my pet peeves is when people claim Force conception as fact, or say it is supported by movie dialogue, when it is not even mentioned as a possibility.

There still is a big difference between the 2 theories. Sith manipulating the midis to create life is mentioned in the films, while the Force doing it is not. Therefore they are not "just as much conjecture" with regards to each other. One has a basis in the film and the other does not. It's not even mentioned as a possibility - relating to Anakin or in general - where the Sith is mentioned in general TO Anakin.

As far as "someone write down in continuity" goes, wouldn't the producer's DVD commentary on the matter count?

Maybe we are getting ahead of ourselves, because it is never stated for fact that Anakin WAS conceived by midis, only that it is POSSIBLE he was.

I disagree. There is no evidence that the Force can or did manipulate midis to create life. However, there is evidence that a Sith could manipulate midis to create life, to which the producer calls important information on the origins of Anakin on the DVD commentary.

I'd be interested to see the Maul "experiment" quote, because that would make for further evidence. Also, didn't the Vader book say that the Sith lore is that Anakin was created by the Sith?

 

As far as "someone write down in continuity" goes, wouldn't the producer's DVD commentary on the matter count?



Not really. You can take a lot of this and spin it the way you want, and satisfy yourself that this is what George meant. When he was asked point blank, he said that it's something we'll never know.

 

THANK YOU MARMKID!! as for you T-R..
Dude you got to be kidding me..The analogy is that Jesus(God) is the chosen one of the divine...Anakin is the chosen one of Force(which I believe is divine in the Star Wars universe)..aka "May the Force be With You" can be just the same as Christians or others say.. "May God Bless You","God Bless You","Peace Be With You,etc.."

May the Force Be With You is an implied statement that may something divine watch over you & protect you..

the analogy to people saying Jesus/God is demon-possessed driving out demons is that story ALONE. I was NOT referring to Jesus's life but this situation in comparison to Anakin. Anakin couldn't be created by Evil to drive out evil! Not possible! Hope you understand the analogy now..

Shadojoker

 

I guess it depends where he said it (Shadow Hunter or whatever his book was called is where I imagine it must be?) and then the fun discussion of ?levels of canon? that I know nothing about and honestly don?t care to

I would say that if he did say that, its an odd thing to have thrown in a book and never referenced again and not used by Palpatine to directly turn Anakin to the dark side. But if it the quote is accurate, it seems to swing a little towards the Sith made Anakin side, though since its not in the movies or necessarily confirmed by GL there will always be a hole in it I guess

Well the analogy is certainly there

Jesus, born from a mother and no father
Anakin, born from a mother and no father

The Force can be seen as the Jedi?s religion, even if you don?t view it that way. I agree that its not necessarily divine, but Qui gon refers to it as having a will

Being refered to as the Chosen One who will save the Jedi from the Sith is similar to Jesus being Chosen by God to save mankind

The analogy is certainly there, I don?t think there is any disputing that. It doesn?t necessarily go that far, but it is there

Well the Jedi have a prophecy of a Chosen One who will bring balance to the Force. I forget how it was said, but does the prophecy include the Chosen One being conceived by midi-chlorians?

And if we are going to get this technical about it, it is never said in the movies that the Sith created Anakin. That is just inferring that from Palpatine?s line about the Sith being able to create life. We can assume he meant Anakin, but that is only an assumption just like it is an assumption that the Force created him.

I don?t know how that goes really
I wouldn?t consider it to count absolutely if its not said in the movies. Now if it was GL talking on the commentary, that might count more. But producers aren?t GL

Yeah that is true
But unless we are getting a PPT Pre-Prequal Trilogy, I think that we have to assume in one way or another that he was conceived by midis

I really wish that was never introduced and Anakin Skywalker was just a really powerful Jedi who betrayed the Order like I originally thought before the PT. I don?t think this really adds much to the overall story