So, we've discussed Kyp to death. How about "Should Revan have been forgiven?"

Let's look it over.

Kyp blew up Carida, a military target that resulted in severe collateral damage. One of the worlds Bel Iblis would have blown up with the Suncrusher (in all likelihood), had he his way. He also blew up several other Star Systems.

Darth Revan conquered most of the galaxy with tortured and brainwashed Jedi Knights, treasonous forces, and ancient technology in an unprovoked military war.

However, Darth Revan was given the Republic medal of honor at the end.

So.....what should have happened to Revan?

 

The Jedi? Forgiving and attempting to redeem someone? t3h amazingz!

I guess the question is "Does Revan saving the Republic (arguably twice, once in the Mandalorian wars, and the second in the events covered by KOTOR1) outweigh the harm he did while leading the Sith?"

I suppose the other question is "How valid is a forced redemption? How does the Jedi Order's brainwashing of Revan factor into this?"

 

The way I see it is that they had no choice but to forgive him. They needed him to find a way to beat Malak, and only he could find a way to get to the Star Forge.

I guess after he had beat Malak and saved the Republic they could have told him alright now you have to pay for starting this mess, but I don't really see the point of that.

Personally, I think he earned and deserved his redemption.

 

The Jedi should've forgiven him. The Republic should've executed him.

 

The good Revan did outweighed the bad. And the celebration at the end with all the troops cheering him leads me to believe they forgave him pretty easily.

 

With people like Carth, Dodonna, and Vandar to weigh in for him I'm sure the rest of the Republic would've been convinced. On the other hand, I think it would've been slightly more interesting if the galaxy as a whole never found out that the Jedi that saved them all was Revan.

 

How well known was it that he was Revan at that point in time? I doubt your average soldier would have any idea he was the one who started the war against them right after the battle at the star forge.

 

Well Vandar did say how Revan was the prodigal knight. So unless the Republic troops were deaf they should have heard. And Dodonna did say all their names would be known to the farthest reaches of the outer-rim. But KOTOR II seemed to give the galacti impression of "Oh yeah Revan saved us... then he creamed us... Then he saved us... ahh who cares?"

 

They probably placed all the blame that Revan did on Malak somehow. It would have made them feel better.

 

Yeah I'd see it as what Count Dooku was thinking in the ROTS novel. Revan and Dooku were the honorable leaders who didn't know the travesties their underlings Malak and Greivous were doing. After all Malak destroyed Telos and Taris. Revan seemed more keen on taking planets and defeating the Republic with as little damage as possible. With the exception of Carth it seemed most of the Republic military held Revan in pretty high esteem.

 

But yes, in your personal opinion, do you consider it an outrage?

Because, let's face it, Revan may have saved the galaxy but it was because he endangered it in the first place.

 

Perhaps the Jedi stopped Revan from saving the galaxy? Until KOTOR III comes out we won't know the true threat the True Sith offered. For all we know Revan's unification of the galaxy could have saved it from a worse war under the Senate. Revan saved the galaxy from the Mandalorians, he attempted military unification of the Republic(but until KOTOR III comes we can't make judgement), he saved the Republic from Malak. All in all I would have forgiven Revan with the information I have now. But if KOTOR III comes out and the True Sith turn out to be 20 Sith Lords pretending they're important I may change my mind.

 

This is a very intriguing question. It's probably even more convoluted by the fact that the Jedi and Republic were not really on the same page for this. Let us see what we have....

Jedi POV: 1. Revan defies the Jedi Council and goes to fight the Mandos. (-)
2. Revan manages to be very instrumental in beatings the Mandos. (+-. The Jedi were probably happy the threat was gone but probably more irritated at the accolades he is being given by the Republic)
3. Revan takes a bunch of Jedi Knights and turns them dark. He begins attacking the Republic and Jedi. (-)
4. Revan is attacked, captured, and brainwashed. His brainwashing is complete enough that he is off to destroy the Sith he created. (+)
5. Revan, basically singlehandedly steers Bastilla (A Jedi instrumental in the war due to Battle Meditation) away from the dark side and defeats Malek and the sith. (+)

Republic Point of View:
1. Revan is one of the few Jedi that is willing to help defend the Republic. (+)
2. The Mandos are defeated in large part due to Revan. (+)
3. Revan and the other Jedi that just finished fighting for the Republic start to attack it. (-) as well as (WHAT THE?)
4. Suddenly, it Revan shows up at the head of a triumphant Republic task force that beat the Sith, killed Darth Malek, and destroyed the Star Forge. (+) as well as (We are soooooo confused.)

In general, I believe that the decision on what to do with Revan in this scenario would be left to the ranks of the Jedi. It could be considered that the Republic, much to the dismay of the Jedi Council, encouraged Revan to continue on the course that eventually led to his fall. Although there seemed to be a LOT of Jedi mistrust in this time period...the entire sequence might have been a great PR coup for them. "We tried to tell you that the Jedi should not be involved in a war like this. The council may have ideas that make no sense at the time but we have our reasons. If Revan had abided the wishes of the Jedi Council this never would have happened. Once Revan was reunited with the Council, it was easy to steer him in the proper direction. See what can be accomplished when the Jedi are all working together?" I could imagine them saying....touting this near disaster as an example of the strength of the Jedi.

 

Is it valid to even say Revan was "brainwashed?" Brainwashing is like you take person and turn them completely around, and program them to serve you interests. That's not particularly what happened with Revan, he was given forcible amnesia and just tossed out there on Bastila's ship with no clue he was Revan, Force-sensitive or anything else. He was sort of left to his own devices, banking probably on him following his instinct to do good and help out. Redemption came at his own hand when he chose to serve the Light even after finding out what the Jedi did to him. Sure, he was given a clean slate to make choices again... but none of those choices were forced on him.

 

He wasn't Revan. Revan died on the bridge of his battleship. What culpability did the new mind the Council built have for the actions of a dead man, other than a few ghost memories?

 

Revan was Hell and Gone into the Dark Side by that point. Look at his holocron for Darth Bane.

Plus, Telos happened under Darth Revan's control and he didn't stop it.

Counterpoint, Revan eventually did regain all of his memories.

 

So? Memories aren't a personality. Revan's consciousness was gone, and a new one was built. Unless the return of the memories was accompanied by a degeneration of the programmed personality and replacement with the original personality, which I find highly unlikely, they're memories of another person entering and being filtered by the new consciousness. Releqy A'kla has many of her father's memories. She is not Elegos.

 

I think that's silly. Revan is the same man that he was, without or without his memories. The person who became the Dark Lord of the Sith is Logan Starr or Athena or whoever Revan was constructed in your game. All that was removed was the Dark Side of the Force corruption that came with his cruelty.

 

i'm just confused by the conflicting cases in sw canon where a jedi will committ unspeakable atrocities (kyp, revan), and the government is only all-too-willing to turn the culprits over to the jedi for justice. this seems to suggest a very strong trust in the wisdom of the jedi. but later on, in cases such as the persecution of jedi during the vong war, or the jedi stance on the confederation war, the government seems to see the jedi as a tool to be used. just once, maybe, i'd like to see the government of the time bearing witness to horrible jedi crimes and then refusing to turn the criminal over to the jedi.

in terms of revan, he's too badass not to forgive. actually, i would say he's more forgivable than kyp, as revan more than righted his wrongs.

 

Until we have the whole story, I'm not really ready to make a judgement.

Right now, I lean towards "yes". Revan was not a mass murderer in the sense that he massacred people just for the sake of it. Many of his kills were in a war/combat situation. Telos is an exception. If it is to be believed that he tried to conquer the Republic to save it...then I think it is more forgivable.

His flaw I would think was that he was maybe too arrogant (sort of like Jacen Solo) to believe that he was the ONLY one to take the burden of saving the galaxy.

KOTOR III should clear this.

 

I think the real question is "How much of Darth Revan is there left to forgive?" How much of the original self is there bouncing around in that damaged brain of his?

 

I guess I'm a little surprised.

Revan, for me, is guilty as sin. Memory-less or not, he deliberately set out to conquer the galaxy for the power of it. As he explained to Darth Bane, any previous alturistic motives had long since been wiped away by the height of his power. He craved power for its own sake and that was all that mattered.

Soldiers and military targets or not, they were people. He also tortured and brainwashed every Jedi he could lay his hands on.

He was a willing and evil monster that attacked the Republic plus its member nations.

Kyp Durron waged war against the Empire, an evil institution, for revenge. His crimes are also minute by comparison to the galaxy that Revan's forces ravaged.

 

I don't see why there's any question about Revan's redemption. If you can accept Vader's redemption Revan's shouldn't be much harder given that he did more to atone and for all intents and purposes wasn't even 'Revan' when he destroyed the Empire he had built.

 

It all comes down to that old question of identity.

In the case of Revan, I agree with Havac but only in part.

Charname (that is, the Revan we play in KotOR I) should not be held accountable for the crimes of Revan the Sith Lord. Though he's got the same core personality (so says Kreia, anyway) he's not really the one responsible - any more than my reincarnation (or whatever) would be responsible for any crimes I'd committed.

That said, it is clear that the general public don't know the ins and outs of why Revan turned against Malak. Disciple, after all, believes that the Jedi council just talked Revan around to their way of thinking. So whilst I don't think "But-I'm-Not-Revan-I'm-Charname" should be held accountable by those who know the full story, I wouldn't be surprised if there were many, many, many citizens who thought he should be punished. Killed even.

Once Revan gets his memories back things become more tricky. I don't think, like Havac, that it's a case of him "having someone else's memories", I think it's him truly becoming Revan again - minus the blinding corruption of the dark side. This, along with his own acceptance of responsibility for crimes he previously felt "weren't his", is probably what led to his exiling himself (essentially) from the galaxy and going on what I assume is a suicide mission.

Once Revan's mind is completely restored (so, skipping out the part of "memory loss or not"), I agree with this entirely.

In terms of their evil and damage to the galaxy, Revan >>>>>>>>>>>> Kyp Durron.

Of course, the same goes for their cool factor too.

 

Forgiven? Not totally, but accepted as a war hero, yes. A man who had done bad things, but had eventually won the day for the Jedi and the Republic. Yes, he had killed and gotten awfully lot of people killed - and importantly from the point of view of the Jedi, had taken a huge number of Jedi to the Dark Side and eventually to the Dark Side Hell for all eternity - but at that point, after the victory against Darth Malak, there was no really other option to accept him as a war hero and if not totally forgive, then at least not accuse him openly of what he had done. They had to accept the current situation, basically.

I am reminded of an Afghan comment which I read after a new government had been established after the fall of the Taliban. The person said about the new ministers that "They are all war criminals, but they are all that we have." And perhaps it was like this with Revan. Yes, he was a former war criminal, but he had won the war to the Jedi and the Republic and he was all they had and they needed him. This does not mean that they would have or should have forgiven him. But they had to move on, accept that he was a changed man and more useful free than in prison. And this they did, as apparently - based on KOTOR II&DB: PoD: ANotOR - Revan did act as a Jedi Master in 3956-3955 BBY before he went to fight the True Sith.