Lit SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader

Dash Rendar with his uber-tricked-out Falcon wannabe was a complete poseur.

 

I can´t use Han Solo, so I´ll create Gary Stu Han clone.

 

I wonder if this is why Del Rey won't move on from the Big 3.

 

I have only heard the audio-book version of Shadow of the Empire, but the impression I got was that Dash Rendar was at least as good as Han Solo

 

I actually like Dash, was introduced to him via the n64 game,ah nostalgia. He was ok in the book too and yeah he was presented at least equal to Han. But aside of that it was more or less a Han replacement to me, although another book(Shadow Games ?) later fleshes his background and character a bit.

That said I actually prefer the Outrider and the YT 2400 model series to the Falcon.

Back to Vader, I enjoy his characterization in Perry's book. His "game of cat and also cat" was pretty amusing since Vader couldn't use the typical approach.

 

My impression was less favorable. I'm sure Dash is a great pilot but he feels the need to REMIND people he's a great pilot, which implies he's actually insecure about it. Likewise, he's formerly rich before he became a smuggler and has a tricked-out modern Falcon which (to me) represents the kind of conflict between muscle-cars (Han) and modern sports cars.

 

"Im the best at what I do but what I do is I flaunt about it."

 

Maybe because it is all he has? Unlike Solo who has Chewbacca Dash only has his ship and his piloting skills

 

and Leebo

 

And, later, his robot girlfriend.

 

I think Dash is the better pilot, but Han Solo has more tricks up his sleeve. Dash is actually a nice and upstanding guy (at least in Shadow Games) and Han more of a gangster.

 

I imagine the adventures of Dash & Guri continue via fan-fiction after SotE:E. that was a cool way to end that comic.


Anyway back to Vader, does anyone have a list of feats he has done as Anakin and Vader ? I heard he Force lift a Y-wing fighter but I dunno in what book/comic

 

Darth_Pevra, I feel there should be a Dash thread, but I don't think it could sustain very well. With only two books to the character, a cameo, and a video game. Only so much can discuss about him

 

One really cool Vader-involving story is also Crimson Empire 1. He is veryyy creepy in this one.

In Ninth Assassin he displays even more powerful telekinesis than that. He shoves away a small group of stampeding space buffaloes and breaks some trees, all at the same time.

 

I want this!

 

Since Steve Perry was the voice behind Journey's 1981 hit "Don't Stop Believin'", I'd certainly say so.

 

It's a bit of a golden age for Darth Vader fans with the extensive number of comic book series with our Dark Lord as the protagonist. I feel somewhat better about Starkiller defeating Lord Vader (twice) now that there's plenty of other series depicting Darth Vader as a force of incredible power as well as terror.

So what do people think of the comics so far?

Which do you guys like most?

 

I'm pretty content with how Blackman has handled Vader overall. I don't expect Vader to be an invincible juggernaut -- Sidious does want to replace him and it fits with the premise that he's half the man he was before he fell. I like the father-son dynamic Blackman explores with Lost Command and Force Unleashed.

 

Jeffrey Brown's Darth Vader and Son is my favorite. The way into my heart is adorableness and not...uh....whatever Blackman's comics are.


I love Force Unleashed, it actually got me interested in the EU. However Ghost Prison, Lost Command and FU2 brought him down to my least favorite EU writer.

 

I apologise for the semantic quibble, but he's not half the man he was... he's half the man he could have been.

Vader isn't just talking smack when he tells Obi-Wan the extent to which he's improved. By the time ANH rolls around, Darth Vader makes the Anakin Skywalker of the Clone Wars, himself one of the most skilled Jedi ever, look like a novice. Vader is THAT GOOD.

Or should be.

Still, on the whole --- and especially taking Ghost Prison into account -- I think Blackman's done right by Vader. Which is not something I can imagine the version of me who first created this thread having ever said.

Ghost Prison is fantastic. Okay, I think the ending is a little OOC for Vader, but on balance that's a small complaint.

 

And again, because it was cool the first time. I greedily claimed to be the guy behind the SOD thread.



Ulicus: "No Charlemagne19, **I** am its father."


How very true.

Thank you for creating it, Uli. I mean that.

Re: How powerful Darth Vader should be

My view on the subject was best summarized by Darth Sidious. I don't remember the precise line or even what book it is, which means I need to get my books on Kindle. However, he flat out says that no one is more powerful than Darth Vader even if Anakin is in a weakened state. I agree. Darth Vader is the most powerful Force User in the galaxy after Emperor Palpatine and I tend to think in the terms that he's the second most powerful period.

Still, Digital_Messiah nicely challenged me on the fact that these kind of power discussions are kind of ridiculous because unlike RPGs--fiction doesn't work with levels.

Darth Vader is able to steamroll over the vast majority of his opponents and is a mighty Sith indeed. However, there's nothing preventing sufficiently skilled or powerful warriors/Force users from challenging the Dark Lord. I tend to think, of all things, The Clone Wars handled it best. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker are the greatest warriors in the galaxy but combat is made up of a 1000+ varying factors which determine whether you win or lose. Likewise, demonstrably inferior Force Users can overcome or challenge them.

I think what the past twenty years have done for Darth Vader is helped Anakin Skywalker refine his technique as well as cunning. Darth Vader certainly thinks he's improved since the days he was Obi-Wan Kenobi's apprentice "When we first met, I was but a learner. Now I am the Master." However, I don't think the improvement is in terms of his lightsaber skills and fighting power but the KIND of skill he demonstrates. Pre-Suit Anakin Skywalker was able to kill the Jedi Temple's Battlemaster and kill God knows how many Jedi (I think someone counted the video game and in lack of a better source, it was something like 36 vs. Battlefront's 6 or so for the main front of the squadron).

Darth Vader is a hundred times better tactician, strategist, and thinker than Anakin--and the latter wasn't bad if the Clone Wars were any indication. Anakin was a bantha-poodoo poor Jedi but he was a Davinchi of War and the Clone Wars was his masterpiece. I think his skill at the Force has improved many times over as well in terms of channeling it and understanding it but I also don't think it's likely Palpatine sat him down that often to chat about the Dark Side. Maybe it's just because it doesn't make good storytelling but for Darth Sidious' apprentice, Darth Vader does very little learning and a lot of grunt work making sure the Republic transitions to the Empire. I'm sure Palpatine made Sith material available to Vader and we know the Dark Lord kept a Jedi holocron for himself (Junior Jedi Knights) but I wouldn't be surprised if Vader is largely a self-study.

This is why Darth Vader can be challenged by Obi Wan Kenobi (himself one of the best Jedi Knights in the Old Republic Era), Ventress (who I took the majority of her power to be skill in lightsabers versus the Force--note that Anakin utterly CRUSHES her once he realizes he doesn't have to fight her lightsabers versus telekinetically choke her in power chords), Maul (who he killed through cunning as well as superior hatred), Grevious (super-cyborg), and Starkiller (who Vader trained but also who has LOVE on his side--and I kid you not, I think that's why Luke beat him). So I'm cool with regular Jedi being a mild challenge for Vader but no actual danger unless they have superior numbers while "top tier" Jedi/Force Users actually require Vader to flex his muscles. The real danger, though, isn't from his combat skills or even Force use but his mind.

Not coincidentally, this allows us to see Vader fight more!

 

Eh, no problem.

Honestly, I'm a little embarrassed by that opening post these days.

You can be the adoptive father, if you want.

"And if you should encounter someone stronger than I am?"

Sidious almost smiled. "There is none, my son, even though your body has been crippled."
- Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Page 123 Hardcover

Could just be messing with him, of course... but it's in the very same book that Sidious reveals (via his inner thoughts) that he believes Vader is still capable of reawakening the Skywalker potential with him. So I'm inclined to think he's being upfront.

Also, there's this:

He recalled thinking: what if Anakin should die?

How many years would he have had to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millennium of being stifled?

None would be found.
- Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Page 133 Hardcover

It's actually stuff like that which leads me to believe that Starkiller is as powerful as he is as the result of midi-chlorian manipulation and gene splicing on Vader's part. I simply can't believe they'd have just stumbled across someone that gifted naturally. "Child of two Jedi" or not.

 

Vader vs. Dooku

I think Mathew Stover handled Count Dooku's skill level best. Count Dooku had an exaggerated sense of his self-importance and I'm inclined to think he's actually not that exceptional of a Jedi Master in the grand scheme of things. Well, as much as "JEDI MASTER" is not an exceptional thing (like, "not exceptional President of the United States" or "Joint Chief of Staff").

He's a placeholder for Palpatine because of Maul's death and I think it's summarized best by the fact Stover says that Anakin is able to hold his own against Dooku right up until Palpatine gets him to channel his anger--at which point Dooku is history.

It fits, thematically, that Count Dooku overestimates himself on every conceivable level. He's not actually a particularly powerful Sith Lord (again, 'particularly good Roman Emperor' equivalent). He's a Jedi Master that Palpatine taught how to use Force lightning and some "simple tricks and nonsense." He's not even all that great of a warrior, he just happens to be master of a very obscure style of lightsaber combat which almost no-one else is master of. Hondo is able to take him prisoner because Form II is useless against blasters.

Once he fights actual masters of lightsaber combat (Obi Wan and Anakin in ROTS), he's significantly more challenged and I honestly think he beat Obi Wan in ROTS as much by luck as anything else. He got a lucky shot in and if I was trying to sell Dooku short, I'd say Palpatine might have helped Obi-Wan's disabling.

Still, Dooku is all smoke and mirrors. He's not the Chosen One, the Apprentice, or the destined ruler of the galaxy. He's Darth Malak.

"I suppose… I suppose you speak the truth. I alone must accept responsibility for my fate. I wanted to be Master of the Sith and ruler of the galaxy. But that destiny was not mine, Revan. [cough] It might have been yours, perhaps… but never mine. And in the end, as the darkness takes me, I am nothing."

So yeah, Dooku is pretty much an "average" Sith lord.

Vader vs. Maul

I'm one of those guys who doesn't actually sell Darth Maul short. I think of him as, bear with me, the Snow Leopard (thank you Gamiel) from Kung-Fu Panda. Tai Lung was his name. He's basically the "Arrogant Kung Fu Guy" personified. It's not so much Darth Maul is inferior to Darth Vader, though he is, as Darth Maul is extremely focused on his physical prowess and capacities as a warrior.

Say what you will about his resurrection in The Clone Wars but I tend to think the fleshing out of his character was almost worth it. Darth Maul isn't stupid, by any stretch of the imagination. He's a little CRAZY by the Clone Wars but we see he's been trained in the sorts of stuff that Vader and Palpatine make look easy--tricking locals into believing you're here to rescue them, manipulating people, and knowing when to bully your lessers into submission for maximum results.

This is just my interpretation but I tend to think Maul is an overachiever in an area which Darth Sidious has limited interest in. I think of Darth Maul as a miscalculation on the part of Sidious, mostly due to the fact he was a much younger man when he started training his apprentice in the ways of the Dark Side. Sidious imagined he'd need a Hand like Mara Jade crossed with a Juggernaut like Vader. As time passed, we discovered that Sidious needed someone less like Starkiller and more a few million guys with blasters and armor.

Still, I liked the description that Darth Maul is one of the "greatest trained Sith Lords ever." We know Palpatine is actually a lightsaber prodigy/grandmaster with his own unique mixture of Form 1-VII and I think he passed that along down to Darth Maul. Maul is physically perfect (another humiliation by Obi Wan) and mentally disciplined into about the most masterful killing machine a being can be. This is why Obi Wan Kenobi is able to kill him and has more trouble later on--he's arrogant because Obi Wan is no match for him. Later Obi Wan is a Jedi Master without peer (save Yoda) but Maul is no longer underestimating him and probably gets a boon from his extra-hatred.

A contest between Vader and Maul I think would be pretty equal until the former wins, as we see, by superior cunning and hatred. But, yeah, don't understimate Maul. He's useless for Sidious' purposes but would have made a fine Dark Councilman in the classical era.

Vader vs. Ventress

This was a contest, as mentioned, decided in the early part of the Clone Wars. Padawan Anakin was able to crush her the moment he gave into the Dark Side. Later, when he decided to just Force Crush her with power chords, it was another case of domination. In short, whenever Anakin isn't holding back, Ventress is no match for Skywalker. I have no doubt that she would be utterly owned by Vader.

Still, I don't think Ventress should be underestimated either. I have my own theory why Ventress is such a tremendous danger to so many Jedi. She starts the Clone Wars pretty raw, a Padawan who hasn't finished her training, but I believe she is a prodigy with lightsabers. Her combination of Niman and Form II proves that.

But most of all--she has hatred that Dooku and most Jedi can't match. Of course, we later learn that she either began as a Nightsister or spent some time amongst the Nightsisters after her master. I personally favor the idea that Ventress sought out Force users to train her after her Jedi Master died and found the Nightsisters. The Nightsisters filled her head with all the crazy Anti-Jedi rhetoric that Ventress became so obsessed with.

Another reason why she's such a difficult opponent. Ultimately, her Sith training and Nightsister training PLUS her Jedi training STILL isn't enough to defeat Dooku.

Let alone Vader.

Vader vs. Starkiller

I've mentioned I think Vader considers Starkiller to be a surrogate son and apprentice. However, he's Darth Vader's son as opposed to Anakin Skywalker's own.

Vader can't form an emotional connection with Galen the same way he can with Luke because he's murdered Galen's father and he's not got his love for Padme to anchor him. Worse, Starkiller is as poisoned to the Dark Side as Vader so Luke's not there reminding Anakin of what sort of hero he USED to be. Starkiller's own feelings towards Vader are signifcantly more fatherly right up until his betrayal. After the second time it happens, Galen more or less gives up on Vader and does his best to kill him.

I tend to think Galen owes 99% of his success to Vader as might be expected. You can come up with any number of reasons why Galen is so powerful: Midi-clorian experimentation, Sith alchemy, the fact that two Jedi in love had a child, or the fact Vader might well have a Force bond with Starkiller the same way he has with Ahsoka Tano. Which, like in KOTOR2, could well explain why both are gaining power so rapidly. I'm inclined to go with one of the official explanations that Galen just has a very powerful natural connection to the Force versus high-midiclorians and he's extremely passionate. He channels his emotions very well and that contributes to ridiculously high Force power output. I remind people, Vader can do everything Starkiller can but force-lightning, it's just that he prefers to be less OVERT for lack of a better term.

Starkiller is Vader's Darth Maul but I'd say Galen surpasses Palpatine's apprentice for a number of reasons. First, I don't think Vader would hold back in teaching. Second, I'm inclined to think that Maul's biggest issue is until Obi Wan Kenobi he only GENERALLY hates. Vader has a very specific hatred that gives him a stronger sense of the Dark Side. So does Palpatine as he seems to open himself up to the Darkness more than anyone--perhaps because of his father. Galan's emotions are just far far deeper.

Which is why I think he was able to beat Vader twice. At the end of the day, Starkiller is fighting for the people he loves and channels that energy--which Vader CAN'T. It's why Luke was able to win against him. It also makes an interesting dichtonomy. Jedi cripple themselves by not drawing on their passions but you can't summon your passions very regularly unless you're emotionally unstable. Well, like Starkiller.

That 1% Starkiller owes to Juno Eclipse instead of Vader is the most powerful 1% of all.

 

Tai Lung was a snow leopard!
Tigress was the tiger

 

Thanks for the quotes!

I mentioned that above but I'm inclined to think there's something else going on there too. As we know, the Force can sometimes just naturally appear in people to a ridiculous extent. Palpatine was born to two random Naboonese people yet is the Ultimate EvilTM. Likewise, there's no indication Obi Wan is a chosen bloodline and he defeats Vader twice too. I suspect it's like Yoda says--the Force can do anything if you open yourself up to it enough. It's just Anakin and Luke were born the Mozarts of the Force. That doesn't mean that Beethoven can't make some damn good music.

It's also why Leia never quite became the Jedi luke was. She couldn't commit to it the same way. Jacen and Jaina did in lesser/different ways--which is why they seem able to smash through everyone else.