Lit A/V Star Wars Episode IX: Duel of the Fates

I think there was always going to be baggage with Ben Solo being the main villain and then dying, because he’s literally the child/nephew of the OT heroes and the grandchild of the PT heroes. It’s an awfully bleak way to conclude this family of characters, by having their kid ultimately murder them and destroy their life’s work.

But at the same time, the redemption we got largely feels half-hearted (though I personally love the Han Solo scene in TROS) and many still feel that the conclusion of Ben’s arc and that of the Skywalker family was too bleak. Having him live, even if it was in exile on Ach-To or wherever might have mitigated some of that by giving the audience room to dream, but who knows.

 

I would advocate for living because at least there is always a chance to do MORE with it...Like the idea of the possibility can always be more enticing even if something is never done with it.

Star Wars isn't just a 9 movie Saga, there will be a 10-12....and there could be a "Continuing adventures of Rey and Friends" ala the Thrawn Trilogy in any format. So even if how we got Ben to his "redemption" point was half-hearted what might come after could be interesting and fascinating.

Star Wars is serialized storytelling it just needs to embrace that side more.

 

For me it would have elevated the Sequels slightly, in the sense that I thought Adam Driver gave the best (or at least my favourite) performance in those three films and it’d leave the door open for something more down the line.

Though, mind you, I don’t think post-IX books, comics or games are a certainty if they have their eye towards 10-11-12.

 

It's not whether or not they WILL happen but the promise of leaving it open ended TO happen i think is more important regardless.

All it takes it one good take or story to make the previous one be forgiven.

Like at worse fans of the ST who were disappointed by TROS could come to see TROS as just as a small bump of the road of future stories with the characters in the timeline are stellar and amazing.

 

Thats how I wanted Jacen Solo to end up instead of him dying

 

yeah that was the same story hook that had a half lightsider, half darksider Jedi Council set 500 ABY I think.

 

I saw this fan artwork of Tor Valum the other day, and I really loved it because it doesn’t base his body on the Oracle’s, which I’ve seen many others do.



Of course, the script itself does not support this body form, as it mentions Tor Valum walking on his hands. I’m not sure if he does so Dug-style or in some other creative fashion. I do wonder if the intention would’ve been to have him be an animatronic? That said, a more humanoid design like this one would’ve made him fit well with the cantina aliens from ANH, so it would’ve been cool to see that kind of classic SW alien as a villain.

Although the presence of a Sith Master would’ve raised some questions, I think it would’ve been a cool feature in the story, and a fun way to bring in some Sith history to the light. We got that anyway in a different form, of course, though perhaps not as explicitly as if we’d seen an ancient master who is still around millennia later.

 

I'm not against the Tor Valum idea but I don't think Episode 9 is the place to do this in. It's like adding Palpatine in 9 as well but at least Palpatine has history and a connection to the Saga, this guy just pops up outta nowhere and just adds more complications to the lore already.

But that's EVERY version of Episode 9 problem is trying to stuff to much at the end.

 

I actually once had an idea for a potential sequel trilogy reimagining that introduced Tor Valum during the events of The Last Jedi as a sorta "dark Yoda" that Snoke sent Kylo Ren to complete his training with as a parallel to Rey training with Luke at the same time.

 

The question is, how and why was Tor Valum created and what does he add and why? What does he complicate and why?

His age being 7000 years I think was the most surprising revelation. He dates back to the first Sith, and outlived them all. Either as a species longlived or through unnatural dark side means. But how does his ever being around presence impact, weaken or strengthen all other Sith in between since then? Is he the surpreme mastermind behind them all? Is he weaker than them and just a tool each of them used for training the next generation?
Introducing species that have lifespans in the hundreds of years, or thousand like Yoda and Maz, always has story repercussions. Thousands of years now including Dark Ages, information loss and else is even more complicated but not impossible.

To truly understand Tor Valum, I think, one needs to get deeper into how and why he is what he is and then the weirdness of his introduction might be lessened and actually he might work within the context of SW.

Tor Valum might live or survive thousands of years, but in return for his longlivety he had to sacrifice something else other Sith were not ready to give up, or that only his species could sacrifice even. Maybe Tor Valum is tied to a place he cannot leave, like the spirit of Exar Kun. Or he is liek Odd Bnar, the Neti Jedi Master, entering his not mobile stage of life to survive for millennia. Immortality at a price may be his bane and have reduced him to a mere teacher unable to ever escape his students becoming stronger than him.

I think Tor Valum is the dark side equivalent of Odd Bnar given the Dark Empire pulls of Episode IX even in early ideas that did not went full Dark Empire Palpatine Clone yet. So Tor Valum as a symbiont or parasite of the Oracle or giant baby makes a bit more sense now, if that is why he survived as long. Maybe he needs the power of the giant child he is leeching to survive. Like all Sith are leeches. Like the old vampiric leech off of the young always in stories, be it metaphorically or physically even to replenish their own youth and lifeforce.

Interesting enough is that there is only one power that Tor Valum does not posess, that could free him of his immobility and enable him to become strongest of all Sith ever. Bodyhopping! Were he to leave his immobile form he could survive through various bodies and stay mobile. But whichever apprentice figured that power out never told him how to do it. From all other apprentices the teacher learned something as well as teaching them something. But not this one crucial power he seeks.

Likewise, Palpatines remote controling people like Snoke is a power Tor Valum might find useful to drive other people while himself being stuck in one place. Either he did not posess that one either, or his reach was limited only.

Therefore I think, what called from the Unknown Regions, the call that Palpatine feared and Vader could not hear as per Aftermath books, that was Tor Valum, not Snoke, not Exegol! Like other Sith before him, Palpatine knew it is dangerous to go there, to even risk Tor Valum getting his secrets about bodyhopping and remote controling people. Would Tor Valum read his mind he might snatch these secrets.
And later when reborn as a clone, Palpatine was as stuck as Tor Valum in an Ommin harness, merely remote controling Snoke, hoping to free himself of immobility and failing body via bodyhopping one day.

The tragedy of the Sith is that the single lonesome parasite can never know the true ultimate power they seek, which is that of symbiosis and love, a true dyad. No mimicry rule of two, no leeching parasitism can ever come close to it. I like how Lucas microbiotic world and symbiosis vs. parasitism in micro and macrocosm is everpresent in the ST, be it DotF or TROS or the entire ST. Hidden in plain sight less obvious than Mortis perhaps but still around.

In all that regard, Tor Valum is a great important character. Reducing him or merging him to the Oracle that was barely in TROS is a shame, but it works. The problem is only that superficially, he'd look weird and people might in fast paced Star Wars not have had the time to realize his true background and implications necessary to understand his role.

 

Tor Valum adds nothing of value.

If they're desperate to use him, either chuck him way back in the past, and/or remove his association with the Sith. Have Revan kill him or something.

There's no need to try and out-do the original films by having there be some mysterious ancient villain behind the scenes all along. It just devalues everything else that came before, in favour of a mediocre idea that Colin Trevorrow had.

 

Again the ultimate problem is adding SO much in one movie

hence why the streaming service has been the biggest god send for well...ALOT of storytelling in all honesty

 

With enough time in development and with a clear enough idea of what the endpoint is, you can do a lot with one movie.

IX’s greatest mountain to climb was a horrible combination of TFA and TLJ have some big issues with laying out a story path and conclusion that everyone was in agreement on and Bob Iger pushing the movie to meet the 2019 deadline, which is...not optimal at all.

 

See i think 9 COULD have made not having a plan mattered and retconned everything to make sense....Granted I think the whole "Have a plan" thing is overrated. Just make strong individual films and build off of it like Marvel does....People who think Marvel has a plan....They really really don't.

But you are right that pushing the movie back would have helped immensely.

Honestly 9's issue that both JJ and Colin were not great fits for this material.

Personally I say just have Rian do 9 and then at least you hav 2 outta the 3 films be cohesive with each other.

Even if I think TFA and TLJ are actually very cohesive and folks are too stubborn to not see it.

 

I look at something like No Time to Die, which had to conclude a 5 film arc and basically serve as a direct sequel to a largely disliked previous entry...and it succeeded. They managed to salvage some really disliked concepts from the previous film and make them the emotional core of the new film and a lot of people loved it.

So I don’t think the only options for consistency are “be like Kevin Feige” or “make it into a streaming series”. With enough time, talent and enthusiasm you can do a lot within a single film.

 

Fair ...But i still rather have a streaming show than a movie.

 

Personally, I don’t think one medium’s inherently better than another. Duel of the Fates could have been 12 episodes instead of one 2 hour movie and I’d have still disliked it.

 

Again fair, I have no desire to see the Synder Cut and that's a 4 hour mini series.

BUT

I still like Streaming series just overall.

 

I like both streaming and movies, but I prefer the concision and clarity that a good movie has over a long series. Most streaming series suffer from having no one episode be especially memorable. That’s part of the point, but it makes rewatching more tedious. And rewatching is essential to this art form for me.

I do think a good Episode IX was possible even as a follow-up to the previous movies. The biggest issue was timing. Carrie Fisher died, the schedule was mostly unchanged, and the filmmakers couldn’t adapt to that. There may have also been more executive pressure after TLJ and Solo’s mixed audience reaction. Whatever the cause, they failed to end the trilogy well. But that had less to do with having a plan or with following what came before.

 

Carrie Fishers was the domino effect that set all things into motion.

I honestly am not even sure really about how much TLJ and Solo played into things since they had Palpatine plans since October when JJ was hired pre TLJ release.

Also Abrams is just not good at finishing stuff, he's a good starter not a finisher.

 

The stuff with Carrie didn’t help, but even looking at Duel of the Fates which was written when she was still alive, Leia’s role wasn’t exactly the backbone of the film.

 

Still it was the catalyst...Can't talk me outta not believing that.

 

The catalyst for what?

They were struggling with IX’s story when she was still alive, so I don’t know what she could possibly have been the root cause of. Seems more like her death made one problem even worse rather than being the instigating factor.

 

I was thinking about the DOTF script the other day, and the specific wording used to introduce Tor Valum rang a bit differently in my head this time.

Kylo first hears about him through the Emperor's holocron, which he finds in the ruins of Vader's castle in Mustafar. The holocron contained a message from the Emperor meant for Vader in the event that Endor did not go as foreseen and the Emperor was killed in the confrontation at the throne room. He instructs Vader to complete Luke's instruction by taking him to the Remnicore System. Palpatine's recording tells him:

"There you will find Tor Valum, Master of the Sith Lord who instructed me."

When Kylo finally meets him in Remnicore, he calls him a Sith Master, to which Tor Valum replies that he is no master. Kylo asks again whether he trained Darth Plagueis, but Tor Valum says that name means nothing to him. He eventually agrees to teach Kylo his ability to cheat death by means of consuming the Living Force of other creatures.

Now, this says a few things to me.

The first is that this entire scene and character are meant to evoke Luke's encounters with Yoda in Empire, with the spirit of his former master telling him where to seek additional instruction. As with Yoda, Kylo finds Tor Valum in an unlikely place and in a state that is far from the dignity one would expect of a Jedi/Sith Master. And also as with Yoda, the title Kylo gives to Tor Valum, "Sith Master," is something the being himself does not accept, similar to how Yoda rejects being called a "great warrior."

The next thing this says to me, which still connects to Tor Valum's role as a dark-side counterpart to Yoda, is that he was intended to be not just any teacher to Darth Plagueis, but his actual master. Tor Valum would've been the canon replacement to Darth Tenebrous. But beyond being simply the canon version of that Sith, this detail would've changed what we know of the Sith lineage. It would've meant that the Sith had not passed on their legacy from master to apprentice in a neat line of succession since they were thought extinct. In this version of events, after their apparent destruction a millennia before, the Sith had truly died as the two-person order we are familiar with, with Tor Valum preserving Sith teachings for centuries until the eventual rise of Darth Plagueis and his line of Sith Lords. Likely other Sith Lords could've risen before him, as apprentices to Tor Valum, but would not have succeeded in their plans or survived. So Tor Valum serves as a living receptacle of Sith teachings, not quite a Sith himself, much like Yoda was originally intended to be for the Jedi in the original trilogy.

That's the main thing that struck me in the last few days, the change to Sith history. But there was one final point that also came up, and that's how Tor Valum fits in with the prequels. Specifically, he connects to a line that Sidious says in ROTS and that we logically understand is referring to Darth Plagueis himself: "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret." With DOTF, that "one" would've now meant Tor Valum, since Sidious had obviously killed Darth Plagueis and thus prevented him from truly cheating death. Of course, that's not remotely the original intention of the line. Lucas meant for it to refer to Darth Plagueis, and, more importantly, for it to be a complete lie. But with this script, it would've acquired the new meaning of referring to the old Sith teacher Tor Valum.

Anyway, these are just some things I found interesting while thinking about this again. Clearly Tor Valum's inclusion and age raise a whole bunch of questions that make things more confusing, which is why later drafts completely eliminate him and simply replace him with a holocron. He had a minor role even in the draft where he appeared the most, and I would've probably enjoyed seeing this character depicted on screen, as it would've brought some of that Jim Henson feel that TESB had with Dagobah back into the fray, only this side to expand on the history of the dark side. Its potential implications about the Sith lineage make me wonder if the idea may have originated outside of Colin Trevorrow and Derek Connelly, perhaps in things discussed in the Underworld series, but that's a subject for another thread.