Straight Answers - The ExU's Rebuttal Thread

That's because you can't see it...DARTH_HOLLIDAY'S SUPERWEAPON, EVEN MORE POWERFUL THAN THE DEATH STAR AND TRILLIONS OF TIMES MORE MIGHTY (and invulnerable to blasters, the Force, and lightsabers) which MUTILATES ITSELF ten times more than the Yuuzhan Vong!

Look upon the DARK UNIVERSAL BACKWARDS TIME TRAVELLING PLANET SMASHER CRUSHER DARKIFYER! BAHAHAHAHAHA!

I got just as much a kick out of that as you get calling us mechanically controlled weaklings.

 

"Wait...I think I see something. No! It can't be! Antilles Base, some kind of new weapon is attacking me...aggghhh...


Helpppp...




















zzzZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZ..."

 

*Transmission Jammed*

The following was rebroadcast on Sturm's emergency channel...

"We were patrolling...(static)....suddenly saw an enormous vessel...(static)....curved structure....(static)....crappy-looking....(static)....consisting of duct tape and cardboard....(static)...Overwhelmed!!!! ARRRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE HORROR!!!!!!!!!! "
- They Came From Beyond The Outer Rim, by Darth_Holliday

 

From what I have seen, Darth_Holiday did a great job. I take no offense.

 

Wow, the boards are slow today.

"I'd like to have an argument."

Brownie to the first person to guess correctly.

 

I'm pretty busy here, what with ACT's coming up real soon now (Saturday), so that argument of mine will be up next week.

 

Excellent post at the beginning of this thread.

I used to love the EU< when Zahn's books came out, I thought it was great I was getting more story, when Anderson's came out, it was like a crap sequel to an ok movie.
Dark Empire I thought was ok, but I felt that the return of Palpatine cheapened RotJ so much as to make the film pointless.

I continued reading EU up until the NJO< after I read the 2nd novel, that was when I decided that I'd read enough, and nothing was getting any better.

I also GM the SWRPG, and I have actually asked a couple of players to stop playing the game, as the game was set in the prequel era, I was quite happy making up the events that were brought on by the characters fit ionto what I was writing, if one of them had managed to overthrow Palpatine, or something equally changing, so be it, we went with it.

The players I asked to leave were the ones who started bringing EU novels to the games with them, and whenever something in the game came up that would contradict some future event came up, the book would be basically thrust at me, usually with the words "But that can't happen, read page XXX"

Why do non and ex EU fans care what is written? Why can't we talk about the films, play the RPG or just enjoy the saga without getting our ears bashed by some EU freak who can't deal with the fact that most SW fans haven't a clue what a holocron is?

Why do EU fans think that we must all accept it all as "it happened" when we're dealing with fiction? Particularly when that fiction is the work of one man's vision, and the add on stuff merely professional fan speculation?

 

I found your post as bland and unimaginative as you claim the EU is supposed to be.
You didn't like EU? So what? Who cares? I thought "Independence Day" sucked royal a$$. But I know many people who really liked it.

EU is not meant to be perfectly in line with the content of the movies. The author's are probably SW fans themselves and are probably just happy to be able to write an honest to goodness book about one of their favorite movies.

Take it or leave it, thats what this stuff is here for.

 

Count_Drew-ku, check your PMs. You might want to tone down the verbiage, unless you want to risk offending people.

Devilanse, tell you what. As I said again, and AGAIN, and AGAIN, this is a thread for people who come trolling at ExU and wanting some "straight answers" in the words of BitterPower. This is it - a place for people to take their arguments, cause I hate it when the ExU thread gets clogged with a canon debate.

 

I agree...But your above posting is mostly reasons why you (and others) believe that EU is not worth the paper its printed on. Alot of times it isn't. Courtship of Princess Leia? brrrr....I did like the "Heir to the Empire" series. I don't accept any of these books as gospel. Its strange how these arguments rise up. Aside from T. Zahn coming up with the name Coruscant for a planet, George has used nothing from EU.

 

I could correct your last point, but I don't feel like it.

 

This is a rebuttal to a post made by Darth_Holliday in the thread here.

Part 1 ( Part 2 in second post )

Why is this forum turning into a politically correct Twilight Zone wherever the EU is concerned? PadmeBra is right.

I could criticize any and all aspects of the Star Wars films to my heart's content. I could do threads called "Jango Fett Sucks" or "Anakin is a horrible character" or "AOTC wasn't very good", and no one would question the validity of such threads. If I did any of the above, I'd get agreements, disagreements, pro and con arguments, maybe some emotional debate....but nothing like what I'd get if I criticized a single little bit of the precious EU. Why does it rate so much more protection? Is it that much holier than the films? Or is it more fragile? What's the deal?

Yes. No. The fact is, people become defensive of that which they love. You of all people should know this.

Personally, I do find myself pretty miffed when someone slags on something from the movies...I'm a fairly mellow, easygoing guy and have enjoyed about 95% of what Lucas has churned out since 1977. That includes Return of the Jedi, the Special Editions, The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones.

When someone disses the EU in an unfair way, and presents plain wrong information, my natural reaction is to present my point of view and inform them. But it seems that, like those that love the Prequel Trilogy, hate is a cheaper commodity to aquire. So their reactions to my points of view aren't exactly tactful. And that is what drags the debates down and just pisses everyone off. The key for both sides is to present an unbiased and fair assessment. It's not always so easy, however.

Think about this for a second. I could start a thread called "Han Solo is weak, and he sucks". If I did that, would I be accused of "slandering a great character" or "making the board an uncomfortable environment for Han Solo fans" or "dividing Star Wars fandom along Han Solo lines"? NO. It would be silly hyperbole to say stuff like that. Now, insert the phrase EU in place of Han Solo. See what I'm talking about? And those are actual arguments I've heard. No criticizing the EU because it makes the board an "uncomfortable environment for EU fans".

I don't know if I've seen anything become that extreme, but trolling is trolling. There's good and bad ways of presenting an opinion.

I know there's supposed to be all this peace and goodwill between this thread and the EUDF...and I do appreciate that they've decided that we don't deserve to be bombarded with attacks. That's fine. But you know something? I'm still not a fan of the whole "defense force" movement in general. A wacky pretend "pseudo-military" group (with call-signs and everything) who act as "watchdogs" and swarm to threads en masse in order to shut out dissenting opnions?

First of all, you're wrong on this first point. The EUDF does not "shut out dissenting opinions". What we do is defend the Expanded Universe. In most cases, that is informing people of any wrong information they may have presented, and to stifle trolling.

In recent months, the most common case is when someone says Timothy Zahn picked the name "Coruscant" from a list that George Lucas made up for him. Which is complete fan theory and is disproven by quotes at the official Star Wars website. That's just one example.

Secondly, Defense Forces exist for each of the movies, also, here at the JC. Does ANH really need a Defense Force? Or ESB for that matter? Probably not, but exist they do.

Thirdly, I don't think I've ever seen "swarming" EUDF'ers in a thread. I've seen people post links and report problem areas at the EUDF Home Base in the EU Misc. Forum, but nothing on the overexageratted level that you present, Darth_Holliday. Most of the time, even *I* don't visit the Home Base, despite me holding the rank of Commander, and when I perform my "duties" as an EUDF mem

 

Part 2...

There are always going to be people that are SW fans, meaning fans of the SW films. Guess what? That's MOST of the fanbase and ALL of the casual fans. Most regular people on the street like SW. Sure...not as much as you or me, but they still enjoy it. They like the excitement, the simple Good vs. Evil story, cool lightsaber duels and space battles, and weird aliens. Try telling those people about the EU and see how long they want to listen. They're not interested in the 342nd "Aliens from Beyond the Outer Rim" invasion or the 567th limp Imperial remnant battling on 30 years after ROTJ just for the sake of keeping the series going.

So what's your point?

::Enters technically-minded correctional mode::

IIRC, there has been aprox three "invasions" by extra-galactic or "unknown" aliens in the EU, and the Empire officially died with Palpatine at the Battle of Endor. The war with the Imperial Remnants was finally ended with a truce fifteen years later.

Why does the forum have to be artificially manipulated into a state where everyone has to pretend that they like the EU? It used to be pretty obvious that this place was one of the few on the internet where people didn't pretend that the EU had a bearing on the Star Wars films or that it was a gospel extension of the story.

As far as I know, the majority of people still do not believe the latter two things. But some do. I happen to be one of them. So what? Opinions differ. Even if George Lucas himself sat down to write one EU novel, some people would yet still not accept it into their view of the continuity.

Do you not realize that most of the people who come here do so for humor or at the least to NOT BOTHER YOU PEOPLE? You've got half the forum now. Won't be long before the whole freakin' thing is polEUtically correct. This is the ONE PATHETIC THREAD that dissents.

You sound like you feel threatened, D_H. Take deep breaths. It will be okay.

It's ridiculous to think that the Emperor died in ROTJ?

You're right, it is.

It's ridiculous to think that WHEN WE SAW HIM DIE IN THE MOVIE, HE DIED? I repeat--IN THE MOVIE, EMPEROR PALPATINE DIED. No, what's ridiculous is to convince yourself that things you saw in the movie didn't really happen (e.g. Palpatine or Fett's deaths) just because 15 years later, some second-rate author wanted to cash in on a beloved movie but wasn't creative enough to come up with his own villains.

So you're basing your entire hatred of the Expanded Universe around the "second-rate" works of Tom Veitch? ?

Again, it sounds like you're threatened that people have these differing views of the Star Wars Saga.

I personally don't care at all what people think about Palpatine or Boba Fett. Someone who only likes the movies? Sure, they died. It's made implicit by those sources alone.

Someone who likes the EU. Sure, they survived.

Another step in the right direction is just dealing with that. Not everyone's view of the SW universe is the same...that's the great thing about personal interpretation.

The SW movies are just a diversion, while the EU is this wonderful in-depth world?

Well, I guess you think of them as two seperate universes. I do not. So yes, I would say that the Star Wars Universe as a whole is magnificently in-depth, and is quite expansive. It won't be easy to tire of thousands of stories and games. Certainly not as easy - as great as they are - of six movies.

But that's just me.

That's a pretty crappy thing to say, and most SW fans would disagree with it.

So my view, and opinion, of the SW universe is "crappy"?

It's a slap in the face to Lucas and all the other people who make those films.

Really? Hmm. But I thought Lucas created and has allowed the EU to exist? ?

You can argue all you want about how the EU is set up to make money...argue to your hearts content. But, in the end, it provides enjoyable reads to thousands of fans. Just like the movies. And just like the movies, the cash infl

 

I think DH made some good points. And I really don't understand why some EUers are so militant. They feel compelled to "teach" those not familiar with EU and they get all bent out of shape when anyone criticizes it. I liked TPM and AOTC. Those movies are bashed unmercilfully on a daily basis in their respecitve forums. Do I ban them for trolling? Of course not. So why is the EU treated differently?

 

"You didn't like EU? So what? Who cares?"

Apparently, you do Why else would you be bothered to read and reply

The fact is, people who dislike the EU, are still gonna dislike the EU, no matter what you say or how you try to "enlighten" them about the EU. So....GET OVER IT!

quietlunatic and Darth_Holliday are trying their damndest(sp) to keep the ExU thread civil and sane. You try keeping things civil when you have fanatics trolling repeatedly in a short timespan. Then, why don't we have a "Defense Force"? Because we don't take ourselves seriously enough to do so. Unlike the cult-like devotion that the EU has.

Oh and to the *snicker*"commander"*snicker*" of the *snicker*""EUDF"*snicker*", referring to your two posts, is that what the *snicker*""EUDF"*snicker*" does? Using their "wit" and sarcasm to respond to a well thought out rant by someone who voices out his opinions(which happens to differ from yours)? Darth_Holliday has a right to voice out his opinions and you, *snicker*"commander"*snicker*, have no right to dismiss his opinions just because they are not Pro-EU You do know that your title of *snicker*"commander"*snicker* is make believe right?

Respect the opinions of others and they will learn to respect yours.

Learn to lighten up.

 

Wan, trying my damndest isn't all that great when we do the " " routine with an organization who's on so-so terms with us. Keeping the peace with the EUDF would prolly be a good idea when trolling is at an all-time high.

 

(sigh) wouldn't it be cool if you don't like what a threads says you don't read or post on it? Or would that make too much sense?

 

I'm not sure. Perhaps you should ask the following trolls...

 

Okay, I'm here finally. Guess it would be kind of unseemly of me to not bother posting on a thread about the ExU issue.

First up...

Sturm, I was using fairly obvious sarcasm that I guess you didn't perceive a couple of times in there. Trolls said that we were illiterate and that we probably want to kill ourselves because an EU character was in the background of AOTC. Sarcasm = what I do. Almost all the time, sad as that may be. Especially on my thread.

Yeah, there haven't been EU titles by the exact identical names I put out there in jest, but I'm simply pointing to the ridiculous fact there are twenty something EU titles with the word "dark" in the title, and I think it's funny. Throw words like "black" or "shadows" in there, and you probably get up into the forties. There really is an EU comic called "Shadows of Darkness". I didn't make that up. I compiled a list of the "dark" EU stories a while back, but I'm too lazy to look it up on my own thread right now.

And I said "most of the EU that you love so much", meaning the basic founding works that all the EU has followed. The ones that EU fans consider classic. The ones that got the ball (of dung, as it were) rolling. Almost all EU fans have read the Zahn Trilogy, Dark Empire, COPL, etc. I used to read all the original EU books as they came out, when it was always a big event. It's branched out a lot since then.

I called YOUR opinion crappy? Come on. I did no such thing. It was specifically directed at the guy on my thread who said the SW films were merely a diversion, but the EU is what made the GFFA such a fantastic world. That ALWAYS irks me. If you like the films and think the EU adds depth to that, good for you. Personally, I still like the Visual Dictionaries, Incredible Cross-Sections...stuff like that in general is really good. But I still am not going to put it on the level of the movies.


quietlunatic

Your essay was great. That note about what LOTR would be like if Frodo was sentenced to spend eternity destroying The One Ring over and over again was brilliant. That's the kind of analogy I've been reaching for, and it's been right under my nose the whole time (I'm an equally huge fan of the LOTR books and movie as I am of SW...even if it's officially unpopular to like the LOTR films on a SW forum with some of the more insecure fans ). Here's another example in a similar vein: the adventures of Luke/Han/Leia in the Expanded Universe is a lot like the Greek myth of Sisyphus pushing the boulder in Hades forever. Modern day translation: EU is hell!

I don't know what I can add here that would be helpful...maybe a little background on my thread? That's what people probably want, since this is supposed to address questions about where we're coming from. There are probably questions about it, I'm sure. You want info about the ExU thread?


Here's my story:

THE HISTORY OF DARTH HOLLIDAY AND THE EXPLOITED UNIVERSE THREAD

I used to be an EU fan, although I never called myself that or even used the term "expanded universe". Early nineties, basically. Read the same original stuff all you EU fans read, and become increasingly disillusioned with it. At some point, I'd just had ENOUGH. It's interesting, because later I found out that such an experience happens to lots of people that read the EU. They get to a certain point where the repetition and the dragging out of the story becomes exhausting. Then they quit, and they end up questioning the whole thing. Something along the lines of "Was THAT really Star Wars?"

I stuck with the EU for a while, even though I'd get really disturbing feelings that the direction of the stories was NOT the SW that I knew and loved. Every EU novel or comic I ever read (probably closer to thirty or so) had at least one item that made me angry or caused me to drop the book in disgust. I think halfway through "Black Fleet Crisis", I gave up. Stuck on a 17 hour plane ride to Australia with only one book, that happened to be the worst book I'd ever opened...

 

You self-important wind..D'oh!

 

Padme Bra, I agee with you about the STAR WARS movies being bashed, but everyone having to walk on egg shells when posting about the EU. I don't understand why that is.

Darth_Holliday, I was born in 1965 and I have been into STAR WARS since 1977 and I enjoy STAR WARS in all of its' forms and I understand your comments and I take no offence to your satire. From what little I have seen of your satire, it is hilarious. You have done a great job. You have a great sense of humor and a talent for writing.

Don't defend your opinions, nor your satire to those who have no intentions of understanding and/or accepting your opinions and/or your satire.

Keep the sense of humor. Those of us that have a sense of humor are really fortunate.

STAR WARS is supposed to be fun and enjoyed. It's a shame there are those who don't understand. You do. Great for you. Great for all of us who do.

 

If you want to know the truth of canon, then write any questions, comments, or any other concerns to:

Lucas Licensing
P.O. Box 2009
San Rafael, California 94912

Why bother picking apart quotes when you can ask the source directly?

 

Would you purists quit "raping my childhood!"

Holliday said...
"And I said 'most of the EU that you love so much,' meaning the basic founding works that all the EU has followed. The ones that EU fans consider classic. The ones that got the ball (of dung, as it were) rolling. Almost all EU fans have read the Zahn Trilogy, Dark Empire, COPL, etc."

Please... please... for the love of all that's holy... I hope you're not suggesting that those books you listed - the Zahn Trilogy, Dark Empire, COPL - are...
1. The books that we love so much.
2. Are basic founding works that all the EU has followed.
3. The Ones that EU fans consider classic.
4. The Ones that got the ball rolling.

These books - the ones you listed - began publishing in 1991 - some 14 years into the expanded universe! Hardly classic. Hardly anything that got the ball rolling. Are hardly founding works of the EU.

The EU books which ARE classic, the EU books which DID get the ball rolling are the original Marvel ongoing comic series and the original Del Rey novels - Splinter of the Minds' Eye, Han Solo at Star's End, Han Solo and the Lost Legacy, Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharu, Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of OSeon and Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of Thonboka. These books began planning even prior to the release of the first Star Wars movie - with Marvel and Del Rey working out their contracts in 1975 and 1976. They founded the EU. Specifically, Marvel was the first ever spinoff work to tell new stories of the Star Wars universe. Del Rey followed shortly after with the sequel to Star Wars (1977), Splinter of the Minds Eye.

The Zahn trilogy is hardly classic, nor is it hardly anything which got the EU rolling. It was a new novel trilogy by a new publisher, 14 years into the expanded universe. That's it's place in Star Wars history.

And, I'd seperate Dark Empire out of that post-1991 eu, as it had been planned at least as of 1988. But, that's a minor point. Even it came more than a decade into the EU.

So, please, you can make fun of the EU all you want, but all I ask is that you get things right in doing so.

 

Genghis12, are you trying to tell me I have to go back and look at the comics/books that make Jabba the Hutt a human?

Or the one where Han runs around with a giant bunny?

 

...and they get all bent out of shape when anyone criticizes it.

Maybe you should visit the Lit forum a little more. Some of the most hard-core comlpelists can be the most vocal in criticizing works and ideas in the EU they don't agree with. <glances in genghis' direction>