Super Star Destroyer Resource thread

Since eight kilometers is still the figure that's used the most, I like to think that Lusankya and Executor are anomalies.

Eight kilometer SSDs have been rediculously powerful since the WEG era. It's already a stretch to believe that Solo's fleets were able to take on an eight kilometer Iron Fist. It becomes more difficult when you make them larger and larger...

So, IMO there are three types. The 17.6 Executor- Class SSD the 12.8 Super II Class Star Destroyer (purely speculation ), and the 8 kilomter Super Class SD.I blame all the mix ups onfaulty intelligence, which was cleared up sometime around the Black Fleet Crisis. After all, the analysis computer has an Executor Class SSD in its databanks.

 

Unfortunately, the official Star Wars website states that all SSDs are 12.8km, and that is the "most accurate figure". That's what's known as a "continuity fix". You basically take all previous figures and replace them with the current one, and make any other necessary adjustments.
Why people can't seem to figure this concept out, I'll never know.
Likewise, the 17.6 figure still isn't canon, according to TOS (according to them, the ONLY canon lengths have been 12.8 and 8, so I don't see why people keep bringing it up.

 

Unfortunately, the official Star Wars website states that all SSDs are 12.8km, and that is the "most accurate figure".

Except that, IIRC, Starships of the Galaxy was published AFTER the Databank entry -- thus 8 km for Executor is the most recent entry...

 

If we consider the films as ultimately overriding all other sources then they override The Official Site as well.

 

Yes, but any length derived from the film is problematic at best.

And since any published books - including Starships - have quite long lead times from when the text is written and when they're available on the shelves, and websites can be updated instantly, I'd be inclined to say that anything published recently that contradicts the 12.8 figure was probably written when 8 was the 'correct' figure, and don't count.

 

This thread is back? Wait! Wait, just wait a sec, I want to get . . . okay.

I've got my popcorn now.

Let's get the circuitous discorse going.

 

Hmmmm.. (Waves around 1:umpteenth scale of SSD menancingly)
After reviewing the posts in a most abrirtary fashion, I will in pronounce in the proud tradition of the many times tried but ultimately failed 'Rule-through-fear-by-threat-of-force' Tarkin Doctrine that I will accept 12.8km as the lenght I will refer to until further notice from higher authorities.

*Ends transmission, pomposity, sychopancy and bad taste*

 

I wonder what length is going to be in the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels...

 

Here is the list of sizes given by various books, with dates given(RaptorRage).

ISD" statement for Executor. Up to that point I believe the post-1984 8km figure was in effect in most published sources.

The Behind the Magic CD-ROM was released on September 21, 1998 with both 8km and 12.8km stated. There was an SW:TOS Executor databank entry around that time that is no longer online with an "over 8x ISD length" statement.

The current 12.8km Executor databank entry was put online on June 20, 2001 and AFAIK has not been updated since.

Starships of the Galaxy was released on December 1, 2001, and like the Behind the Magic CD-ROM it states both figures, 8km in the stats and "8x the length of an ISD" in the included fluff text.

On a personal note I found a Star Wars Starships desk calendar at Barnes & Noble after watching AOTC in the theater last May, which had been published around that time in 2002 and had the 8km figure stated.

Around August 19, 2002 WOTC put online their 12.0km Lusankya stats.

Star Wars Fact Files issue #47, Exucutor article, November 2002, 8k.

 

For what it's worth, I'd never heard any length other than 8,000 meters up until last month, when someone here pointed out to me that SSDs were listed as 12,800 meters at the official Star Wars website. Craziness.

 

Syntax, don't take this the wrong way...but you are sincerely dedicated to your beliefs, old man!

Can we please agree either to abide by the original premise of this thread:

Matthew Trias: "This thread is intended to clear up confusion over the Super- Class Star Destroyer/ Executor- Class Super Star Destroyer matter. It assumes that the ship seen in the Star Wars movies is 17.6 (optical illusion arguments aside) It further assumes that Executor was the only one of her Class and was the first true Super Star Destroyer."

Or can we agree that the films represent the highest level of canon?

If we accept the thread's basic premise then your arguments concerning Executor's length are utterly irrelevant to it, and are, to be honest, dear boy, a wee smidgeon distracting.

If we accept that the film's represent the highest level of canon* then it's dashed obvious that Executor is neither 5 nor 8 miles long.

* Subject to allowance made for errors in the filming e.g. the fact that every officer in ROTJ is the same rank, that occasionally film gets flipped and characters end up back to front (ESB it happens to Piett, and his rank badges end up on his right chest, ROTJ it happens to Lando and his sash gets crossed over), AND (one presumes) the instance you cite of Executor having no length at all.

On Continuity Fixes and the history of the Argument:

There is an unquestionable continuity problem. Executor does not have the dimensions ascribed it by WEG or WotC or the official site. George Lucas made some films because it was fun, and because he got money. If he upsets fans he may lose money, and there are lots of people who feel very strongly about Executor's dimensions.** Therefore, our desire to have a definitive length for Executor straight from the man's mouth is about as likely to come true as Dr. Saxton's desire for a future special edition of RotJ in which the rank badge error is corrected.

** For anybody who has just happened to wander in: Yes, we are freakin' crazy, nor can we ever find satisfaction...but we just can't let go! Help us!

Soooo....WEG comes up with a big length for Ex - hey, 5 miles is BIG - and people happily play the RPG. But beneath the quiet surface trouble is brewing. People start to think, "But Executor looks longer than that, surely?" They go back, watch the films and they're right.

Unfortunately, it all got a bit heated when Dr. Saxton composed his work. As I have opined before: his perfectly natural desire for accuracy has been unfortunately directed sideways into irritation at WEG for not getting their facts straight.

People start getting annoyed. Most people here have the same reverence for WEG as for a favoured relative. Threads on the topic of SSD length start getting closed because there is no debate going on about anything, just the hurling of vitriol.

Because of this Thread Openers become more cautious. Threads begin carrying specific notanda and legenda that contain the conditions under which the thread will operate. We see this thread's operating parameters above.

So, please, please, Syntax, and anybody else moved to suggest that Executor was not the "Saxton" length, do make your case, do provide us with your arguments, proofs, and sources.

But not here, not in this thread. Start a different thread and I will VERY happily debate with you in there, but this thread concerns the "Saxton" Executor and subordinate vessels. Please

Anyway...onto matters relevant.

Matthew, you seem to have inadvertently mislaid the irritatingly quirky Lusankya (12 km). Hmm, do you think some of it fell off? Seriously, I recall that it was battle damaged. Can anybody recall if a half mile fell off somewhere?

I totally agree with you regarding the idea that Iron Fist, Razor's Kiss, etc, must be 8. It always was a pain reading the books and having the poor wee Mon Remonda do such damage.

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? Never!"

If anybody happens to do RPG, would you consider running a little test for me of MR stats versus WotC's SSD stats? I'd be in

 

One thing we've noticed in the published sources is that an SSD, despite the high loss rate among the known vessels of the type, is a pain to kill. Every SSD that has gone down was either destroyed by sabotage (Terror, Knight Hammer), lucky hits (Executor, Vengeance, Iron Fist), or a hell of a pummeling (Reaper, Lusankya).

Sabotage is obviously something you can't defend against with shields and armor - if something messes with the reactor, a bigger ship makes a bigger bang. Lucky hits is a possible explanation for why Iron Fist retreated from a one-on-one duel with the much smaller Mon Remonda - with his shields crippled by Piggy's TIE strike, Zsinj knew that one good torp shot or turbolaser blast could decapitate the command tower or sail right into the hangars, not to mention he'd just come from plowing his way through KDY's Destroyer screen and was getting pecked at by four squads of torpedo-armed starfighters. Without shields, an SSD is a sitting duck for whatever comes its way.

In the third category, we get some idea of what it takes to kill one of these things when somebody doesn't set off a few hundred concussion missiles next to the engines, when the shield generators aren't picked off, when a TIE doesn't get loose in the reactor and shoot it to pieces, when a Corellian Corvette loaded with nergon-14 doesn't plow into the command tower, or when an A-wing doesn't crash into the bridge. It took another SSD to kill Reaper, Executor brushed off having three ISDs collide with her shields at near-lightspeed, and Lusankya stayed intact throughout a long "death ride" straight at a worldship that was just a bit smaller than a Death Star. Given the fact that most GFFA capital ship weaponry makes an H-bomb look like a firecracker yieldwise, you might need a 12.8 km or, dare I say 17.6 km, vessel to survive that kind of pounding.

 

Slightly off topic...
I know that then-Admiral Pellaeon transferred his flag to the Reaper for a time, directing the last Imperial offensive from her bridge. But I'd love to hear the circumstances of her death. Did the Lusankya take her down? Was it a truly epic battle?

 

"The New Republic attempts to move in on Moff Getelles? Antemeridian sector with two full fleets. They are successful, but moving any further into Imperial territory is nixed when Admiral Gilad Pellaeon?s forces strike back. The New Republic move is stopped, but Pellaeon loses the Reaper"

That's all that's said about it in Timeline Gold.

I rather hope that's one of the stories they tell if they ever decide to revisit the Bantam era and fill in the gaps.

 

The Problem with all this is that it CLEARLY states in the essential guide to ships and vehicles and the star wars encyclopedia that the EXECUTOR as in the flagship of Darth Vader's Star Destroyer squadron is listed as being 8,000 meters long, not 17.5 km now 12.6 km but 8 km 8,000 meters long.

 

Which is why I just go with the idea that LFL is terminally confused and get my lenght from Saxton's analysis. Besides, size DOES matter

*ducks rotten hubba gourds*

 

Matthew, you seem to have inadvertently mislaid the irritatingly quirky Lusankya (12 km). Hmm, do you think some of it fell off? Seriously, I recall that it was battle damaged. Can anybody recall if a half milel off somewhere?

Well, I was going by the stats WEG provided , but a friend remind me that
in math you sometimes shave off some of the numbers. So, I now interpret
erpret 12,000 meters to be 12,800. WotC just left off the 800 meters and gave an approximation. That's my "fix"


"Lusankya was also an oddity in that she was actually 4,000 meters longer than the standard Super- Class Star Destroyer ( which is usually 8,000 meters). extra space was devoted to prison cells and and interrogation chambers and whatever else the Mdme. Directoror might have required."

I was going on the idea that she was a modified "Super I" since she's shorter than the official site's "Super II". However, you can see from my response above that I've scrapped that idea.I consider her to be a normal "Super II. (M Auper with a 12.8 length.) But to answer your question, no I didn't get it from a sourcebook. Just another interpretation of facts.


I totally agree with you regarding the idea that Iron Fist, Razor's Kiss, etc, must be 8. It always was a pain reading the books and having the poor wee Mon Remonda do such damage.

Yeah.Even with the ships it had escorting it. As someonbe pointed out, even the eight kilometer SSD in WotC is rediculously overpowered. I can't imagine them tackling a 17.6 k ship.

 

Executor and Lusankya are BOTH KDY Super-class Star Destroyers... it doesn't mention anything about Super-I or Super-II like the very clear distinction of Imp-I vs. Imp-II...

 

Lusankya had about 10% of its nose blown off by the torpedo attacks in the X-wing: The Bacta War novel, which may or may not account for its "non-standard" length after being repaired. Of course Lusankya was 8km when the X-wing novels were published, but it apparently gained some water weight a few years later...

 

Some diners take their Super Star Destroyers very seriously. Personally, I always have them in moderation, and only once a a week as dinner dessert. The size they are, they're very filling.

 

Actually, while I don't believe in different-scale variants of the SSD, I do think the various illustrations show that after the launch of Executor and Lusankya KDY began producing what was probably the "production version" SSD. Compare the TESB and ROTJ shots of Executor and the Crimson Empire frame of the Lusankya and you'll find the later ships illustrated in the computer games and in SWAJ have a noticably different superstructure.

 

I hopw the upcoming NEGTVV will solve all these length hassles...

But I'm not counting on it...

 

It will have whatever the latest measurements at the official site is having that day.

 

By the time the book comes out, the SSD class will have been stretched to 45,047 meters, and will be made in eighteen different variants, some ranging from 40 meters all the way up to the 45,047 meter Executor that we all know and love.
*sarcasm mode off*

 

Righto, Matthew, thanks for the clarification

Cheers, RaptorRage, we can posit some significant rebuilding of Lusankya from her damaged frame, which'll nicely account for the odd length - as you point out.

"Executor and Lusankya are BOTH KDY Super-class Star Destroyers... it doesn't mention anything about Super-I or Super-II like the very clear distinction of Imp-I vs. Imp-II... "

Curse you dp4m! I must say that that is the biggest problem of them all. For whilst we can say that Iron Fist and Executor can't have been the same class, it's an annoyance having everything say that they're both Super-class. Matthew's fix is the best we're likely to get: Fighter jockey slang.

Saxton can go a bit far: see his comments on Ackbar's relevant line "Concentrate all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer." Sadly, Saxton's opinion that Star Destroyer equals interstellar version of a common naval destroyer requires his reasoning.

Now, this is sustainable, odd though it sounds. Let me just do a bit of historical background to set the scene.

WW1: the RN has 20+ Dreadnaught type vessels. Dreadnaught = they have a main armament of large calibre, long range guns e.g. 12" or 15". Previous warships generally had fore and aft turrets with a pair of huns, then a whole swarm of lesser calibre weapons.

HMS Dreadnaught herself had 5 turrets each with 2*12" guns, a top speed that was about 4 or 5 knots above that of most other contemporary warships of the day. In short, she outclassed, outgunned, etc, any other ship afloat.

Sounds similar to the blurb WEG have about Impstars, right? Capable of levelling an entire planet...vastly more powerful than any other ship.

Now, Dreadnaught was the only ship of her class built. So there were no other Dreadnaught class battleships. However, every up-to-date line of battle ship commissioned thereafter was of the same type - with a large battery of guns, like HMS Dreadnaught. therefore, these ships were known as Dreadnaughts.

As advances in warship construction allowed more powerful craft to be built the term "Superdreadnaught" came into use. This was an unofficial designation for immensely powerful vessels that still shared the features of HMS Dreadnaught, yet incorporated the latest technology. Examples include the RN's Queen Elizabeth class, Germany's Bismarck, and Japan's Yamato.

Whereas Dreadnaught had weighed in at about 21,000 tons displacement, Bismarck was c.50,000, and Hitler apparently had plans for vessels of c.250,000 tons.

As Saxton notes in TechComm, the weapons emplacements on Executor appear the same as those of the common ISD. That points to this hypothesis: that Executor is not a battleship compared to a destroyer, but a superdreadnaught on a vastly larger scale than that seen on earth.

Clearly, there's a counter-argument to this: that SW technology is more analogous to current tech than WW1 tech. Nowadays, every ship class carries missiles for anti-ship, and anti-aircraft warfare. Turbolasers could well be analogous to this, so Executor should be considered a battleship compared to destroyers because of her size and abundance of weapons.

Any thoughts, people?