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  1. ATTENTION: All leaks and rumors MUST be spoiler tagged. Information from official sources or the big trades do NOT need to be tagged

The “death” problem

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by SeparatistFan, Jun 16, 2022.

  1. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    That's the part I could be on board with as well. Use it a a temporary mode in which a mortally wounded darksider goes "berserk". Basically a last hurrah, ignoring the failing body and spending all remaining energy to go for a kill. Once that is accomplished, or the boost vanes as the chance is slipping, the collapse comes all the quicker and death is inevitable.

    No, people said that there was no such thing as "what the fans" want. And that is true, no matter how often you claim otherwise. There is no opinion that represents the fans desires. On this very issue you will find plenty of fans who think things are just fine the way they are.
     
  2. Maythe14thBeWithYou

    Maythe14thBeWithYou Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2014
    Well, there's a big fanbase and to say XYZ speaks for ALL of them is wrong. Everyone has a right to their opinion of course but no one is the spokesman.
     
    clone commander bossk likes this.
  3. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Don't create a straw person fallacy to support your claims. I have never said that all fans think the same. Nevertheless, when a vocal enough portion of the fans communicate like or dislike for a product, LFL pays attention.
     
    Elle-Wan likes this.
  4. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Pffff if we want to allow ourselves these broad generalizations, the fans are the absolute worst people to determine what needs to be done. On average the fans tend to cheer the most when they get CGI Luke and episode 6 of BOBF. The fans are the biggest obstacle for SW to be any good. Statistically, they tend to be happiest when they get the most bland, unsubtle and unoriginal references to OT and PT. "Because it rhymes".... If characters keep resurrecting it's just because fans like the old characters to stick around.
     
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  5. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    For a character like Mace, I’d be 100% on board. I think there is the possibility for great stories featuring him past ROTS. Whether it’s Boba going after an elderly Mace like Temuera wants, or whether it’s another Vader-Mace confrontation, I think there’s potential there enough to bring him back.

    For characters like Trench and Echo. I don’t think they needed to survive.

    For a character like Boba Fett. He was so popular and George had even mentioned having considered bringing him back, so I just took it for granted it was inevitable. Especially since they announced a Boba Fett movie years ago, we all knew it was coming. But having said that, if TBOBF was the story they ultimately saw for the character, I don’t believe the payoff of bringing him back was worth it.

    For Reva and Grand Inquisitor, my problem is they keep giving each other the exact same wound.

    Even in Marvel, Thor had the sense to aim for the neck the second time.

    Instead Vader stabs her in the stomach and she survives, which is fine given that is baked into her backstory. But then she inflicts the exact same wound on Grand Inquisitor and he plays dead just as she did.

    Killing Grand Inquisitor only comes as a surprise if you didn’t watch Rebels. And even if you didn’t watch Rebels, there was enough pop culture articles calling out the “plot hole” such that if you visit a website like IGN you could be made aware of the spoiler that Grand Inquisitor has to survive.

    Then Reva gets stabbed again in the same spot a second time. People have survived that wound in this very same show twice already, and Grand Inquisitor just laid out why they survived (lust for revenge). And this time I don’t even remember Reva playing dead. She just gets stabbed and then Vader and Grand Inquisitor leave.

    And I take it for granted that the writers have a plan. That Vader intentionally left her alive because he wasn’t done with her. But instead Reva goes after the son that Vader doesn’t know he has, and Reva and Vader don’t cross paths in the show.

    Her survival the second time requires us to think Vader and Grand Inquisitor are fools.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  6. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    I didn't. Nor does my comment say that you think that all fans think alike. You'd really have to twist my words in the most absurd fashion to read it in such a way.
    You however did just use a strawman by saying that people were saying that Lucasfilm doesn't listen to fans.

    And not everything that follows a bunch of people complaining about an issue was caused by said complaining either. That's another logical fallacy in your argument.
    Some people run around and claim that Lucas reduced Jar Jar's role because fan whined about him. There is zero proof for it, but they run with it any way. They can believe that stuff all they want, just like people can believe that the earth is flat. None of it makes it a fact, or even likely though. A movie-studio is perfectly capable of self-reflection, or, simply makes use of different creative leads using different creative approaches. In some cases, the latter will deliver something the complainers might like, even if it never developed out of their complaints.

    The complaints from fans rarely have the impact the complainers think they have, as evidenced by many of them struggling to notice production schedules, and that many projects were well into development before fans even voiced an opinion on prior ones. Something that is already written cannot possibly have been impacted by opinions that were voiced afterwards. It is possible for changes later on, but noticeable changes would become obvious through significant delays in production.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
  7. Maythe14thBeWithYou

    Maythe14thBeWithYou Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2014
    I never thought the GI was gone for good. Anyone who's seen Rebels knows he doesn't die. That being said, I was surprised by it but didn't dwell on it. Some things you just have not to overthink. Some retcons bug me more than others. When Maul appeared it was a surprise as an example but it seemed they made him more interesting and menacing in TCW & Rebels so it benefitted Canon.
     
    DarthFixxxer likes this.
  8. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Maul surviving is not the same as the 3rd Sister or GI somehow living past their killing wounds delivered by trained Jedi killers. These killing blows in lightsaber combat is called shiak, now it may as well be called shiat. They rendered it all useless.

    Humans have been documented as surviving the same wound as Maul, being cut in half, so its not that unbelievable. Maul is not a human, plus he's a fictional evil sorcerer type. Fett had his armor and gadgets, so him surviving in Dark Empire was not that unbelievable or farfetched extraordinary, especially when we know the bodies are very slowly digested in the Sarlacc. The Emperor returning as he did in Dark Empire was also not surprising since he's an evil sorcerer and was the main bad guy at the time. We also had Tales of the Jedi to cover alot of the Sith Lords and their powers and magics ect. So their was material and complementary lore.

    Lucas also supported The Emperor's return according to Veitch, while Zahn hated it but this was the guy who originally wanted to make an evil Kenobi clone as his big bad guy of his trilogy until he was vetoed by Lucas/Lucasfilm and so we got C'Boath mad clone that for whatever reason was just as powerful as the Emperor or more so of ROTJ.

    Maw survived being cut in half in Jedi Knight 1997, and falls rarely kill villains or even heroes. Luke survived his Bespin fall. Sith Lords even in the EU like Simus cheated death as just a living head . Ommin prolonged his life far beyond its expiration date. In the EU Sith Lords used both Dark and Light Side Force healing, and Plagueis and his experiments is another consideration. Its hinted at that Maul implemented training from Sidious to survive his injuries, and even in Luceno's novel hinted at Maul cheating death by way of Plagueis techniques.

    [​IMG]

    Filoni made Maul spend like a decade in exile on Lotho Minor despite rebuilding himself and the cost over the years there was his sanity. For whatever reason they made him pay this a price but all these other characters that cheat death seeming don't. They all defy explainable with a miraculous survive, sometimes bacta and cybernetics is thrown in but often not even that. Its become nonsense.

    Lucas was intent on bringing Maul back, this was to have been down first in the cartoon or the Red Fly video game at around the same time. Filoni's version made it first. Lucas was gonna use Maul as his sequel trilogy's main bad guy. So there was a big purpose for his return. Lucas was also fine with making it Maul by clone or descendant and spirit of Maul that trained the clone or descendant. One of the early ideas for what would become The Force Unleashed was the return of Maul. So its pretty likely that Lucas had plans for the character's return at some point. It might even be a similar situation with Boba Fett, he may of played a role in his sequels or live action TV series.

    Maul surviving was also was used in the EU quite a few times post TPM as him still being alive. The clone on Kalikar Six in Resurrection(2001), the living hologram in
    Phantom Menaces(2003) and the Maul the cyborg in Old Wounds(2005).

    Also in the EU Grievous survived a crash orchestrated by the Sith and was put in bacta, given midiclorians from the blood of the dead frozen body of Sifo-Dyas and then cybernetically put back together. He was basically a combination of Maul and Vader.

    [​IMG]




    Its extremely doubtful that generic Dark Jedi Inquisitors were taught any of the Sith techniques that Maul, Vader and Sidious would've used . Even if she was, her relinquishing the Dark Side should've killed her on the spot.


    Reva just gets back up soon after her fatal wound and somehow gets to Tatooine in a few minutes and walks/jogs around on foot for hours. Its some of the worst depiction and writing I ever seen yet in SW. We also have to believe that the GI also stood back up on his own too and walked away like Reva. This sorta thing is not same as Maul's presumed death as many of these characters are not Force sensitives and if they are, are of lesser caliber . A lot of the stuff they been pulling since Lucas is gone is pure explainable contrived buffoonery.
     
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  9. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner star 5 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    I honestly hate idea of bringing Mace Windu back from death. Just no. There have been enough of that. Leave some people dead please. Jedi especially should die when killed... they are not afraid of death so they accept it. It is unnatural to rebel against death so sith can do it, jedi cannot.
     
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  10. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    I think the story is important if they bring Windu back.

    ''Revenge does wonders for the will to live''

    That's what Maul's survival teach these dark siders. And perhaps that's what that makes people question ''Is the dark side stronger?''




    If Windu is going to join the dark side, or use the dark side to survive, why not?

    But I don't think he should survive that as a Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  11. Elle-Wan

    Elle-Wan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Disney seems to be learning the wrong lessons from the reactions to their content. I think it's an objective fact that the two most popular characters from the Disney SW era are Grogu and Mando (two brand new characters). The only thing holding them back is that they live within the confines of the existing movie timeline. Rather than trying to replicate this and free the narrative from the Skywalker Era, they're putting everything into these narrative shackles. Every character they create, every story arc, is limited to the confines of existing canon.

    Imagine if Disney SW created a character that is as well-received as Ahsoka, Grogu, or Mando but it's 1,000 years in the future. The story would have absolute freedom. ...but instead we're always just piddling around Tatooine filling in gaps.
     
  12. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Oh, as far as I'm concerned the ST should have been hundreds of years in the future and we no old OT character, so I 100% agree. It would have probably had less success though.
     
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  13. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2012
    It comes down to the quality of the writing. While it's generally a copout that brings down the general believability of the world it established, it can occasionally be effective to bring back dead characters if it's done rarely and feasibly. I'm not going to pretend that Darth Vader doesn't fall under this category, because for all intents and purposes, Luke's father was supposed to be dead. But that turned into one of the most beloved plot twists in cinema.

    But worse is when someone brings back a dead character... just to kill them again. It's not good writing to run around in circles like that; you sink the believability of a story to temporarily bring back a familiar face. Probably the biggest example is Palpatine: revived and killed in the same movie. No indication that this time is final now. While Phasma's return could have been feasible, what did her further appearance do for the story? I don't think he got mentioned, but Luke destroyed most of Jabba's court when he blew up the sail barge. Bib Fortuna survived offscreen, just to get killed immediately after.

    I feel like "killing fake outs" are their own category, because it's not revising a previously established work like before, but is supposed to work within the same story. This is where I'd classify Cobb Vanth, Reva, Grand Inquisitor, Chewie, hell, even Threepio's memory. Maybe it's a pattern that hero revivals are usually planned, whereas villain revivals happen well after the fact.
     
  14. Elle-Wan

    Elle-Wan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Not if it was good! ;)
     
  15. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    False. I am.
     
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  16. Darth Valkyrus

    Darth Valkyrus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Wait for the show in which it is revealed that off-camera, during the Geonosis arena battle of AOTC, a daring team of med droids rushed out even while the battle raged, picked up Jango's severed head, and froze it in carbonite before he had time to suffer brain death. They then took the head to a medical facility where it was connected to a robot body including a small artificial heart and lungs, keeping the head and brain alive. Thus Jango Fett shows up again, very much alive and ready to kick butt.
     
  17. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Or someone just transferred Jango's frozen brain into some hapless Clone.
     
  18. Darth Valkyrus

    Darth Valkyrus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Actually that's probably a better idea. Jango is in the unique position that there are millions of men who are genetically identical to him. There would be no immunoresponse / rejection issues. Grab Jango's head before irreversible brain damage kicks in (no more than 5 minutes after the decapitation, hence the daring dash by the med droids and the oh-so-convenient carbon freeze device or stasis field generator they just happened to have right there in the arena service block), take the body of some clone who died to a headshot in the battle that started about 5 minutes later, remove his head or brain and splice Jango's on. Yee haw, Jango lives!
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  19. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Really wish they hadn't killed her.
     
  20. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Tala has 10 years of rich history from the creation of the empire to 10 years later in Kenobi.
     
  21. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Tala just needs some death anger.
     
  22. Intergalactic Lawman

    Intergalactic Lawman Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2020
    Death is meaningless in SW these days...
     
  23. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    The GI surviving without explanation was one hand wave too many.
     
  24. Intergalactic Lawman

    Intergalactic Lawman Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2020
    100%

    I literally cringe when I hear people try and explain this to someone that doesn't know he has "Two stomachs" :oops:I explained it to my wife and she (rightfully) asked "How am I supposed to know that...?"
     
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