Mini Series The Acolyte 1.03 - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

But what makes it worse for jedi is obviously the dark side. The point of avoiding attachments is due to avoiding the dark side. As Yoda says fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Now this isn't always the case, but you can't guarantee someones mental state when it comes to vulnerability. Everyone is different but just because it doesn't happen to everyone doesn't mean you should risk even 1 setting off a bad cycle in the order. Aka like Anakin.

 

I just got to say...usually when you got a pit like this...people are getting thrown in it. Was there supposed to be some sacrifice but the Jedi showed up and interrupted a Wilhelm Scream?

 

Agree, she can be a Sith agent with a mission to infiltrate the cult and gather info about witches' abilities. Although the birth of twins is probably not a part of the original plan.

 

Interesting points.

Ya know. Typically in a lot of fables, children are usually the target of witches (many witch tales seem to be about murdering or eating kids, or some sort of sacrifice. Snow White, Hansel and Gretel, etc). Mae and Osha are the only two kids there. The rest are all adults.

They speak of how this is the Ascension ceremony, but what does that even mean? Who's ascension? The kids or the witches? They also mention that they haven't performed this ceremony since going into exile and that they have been blessed with the gift of life. If that's the case where are other 'kids' who were part of the last ceremony? Why would two more kids - special ones at that - be a gift of life for this Coven?

Wonder just how long their exile has been?
How long they've been here?

What if they were going to sacrifice the kids to remain ... alive. What if the kids are a dyad and they were going to use that combined power to keep the Coven going. And this is what the Jedi interrupted. Now Osha wants to leave and the Coven can't argue cuz it will lead to the Jedi realizing what might be really going on here.

EDIT: Maybe the Coven all died naturally because they didn't ascend during the ceremony. They needed that gift of life and didn't get it.

EDIT 2: Acolyte literally means one who helps a priest, a leader, or in part of a ceremony. These two kids are the Acolyte. Meant to keep the Coven ... alive.

 

Or the Sith had guessed something about the witches' abilities. The ability to create life must have been attractive to them.

 

Just to add my unneeded opinion, whatever was going on with Padme and Anakin never felt like love. Probably a bad reaction to bad acting, writing and directing. However, Anakin begins AotC being obsessed about Padme. He treats her like a possession, something made clear to me in TCW. His believing Palpatine can save Padme is just silly. Do they not have doctors in the PT? They didn't even know she was carrying twins. Anakin is guided by his visions, and not love for Padme. As pointed out in Rebels, Visions could mean many things and what you want them to mean.

 

Until the show gives us more specifics about the Coven's beliefs and practices, we can only speculate about how darkside they actually are.

So far, I think the narrative has been somewhat clear enough for us to understand what the Ascension is though. It just means that the girls will officially become part of the Coven, and in being part of the Coven, they swear to maintain its practices and knowledge.

They have also explained why the Ascension hasn't taken place in a long time -- they have not been able to add new members because they have been thrown out of one community after another. This is the reason they had to create life -- because being hidden on an isolated planet means that they can't recruit new members.

Therefore, they had to use the darkside, it seems like for the first time, to create life.

As to whatever other darkside practices they engage in, that has not been revealed to us yet. Is it as simple as allowing strong attachments, or is it more insidious? We don't know anything yet.

The Coven might be fairly harmless, or it could be deeply involved in blood rites. The writers don't show us this yet to keep us as objective as possible.

 

I think it's interesting that all the witches look more or less the same age. There are one or two who seem elderly, but the rest all appear 20-40s. If the Ascension hasn't taken place since they're exile where is that younger generation of witches. Shouldn't there be a teen-witch in the group? Or whatever age was the last time they did this ceremony.

I don't think its out of bounds conceptually to think that the Witches want to stay alive using these kids, since they literally say this act was a gift of life. If all they needed was more witches to keep the Coven going, why not just recruit a few more women outside of Republic space who have Thread powers. Why do they need two children for this gift, unless its to keep them going literally.

 

You just answered this question yourself. The reason many of the witches seem 20-40 is that was the last time they were able to recruit. That they don't have younger members is evidence that they haven't recruited in a long time.

The show explains this clearly: They are in hiding and isolated on an uninhabited planet where they can't recruit new members. They are destined to die out because of this.

This suggests there are not nearby inhabited planets for them to recruit from, and they probably don't want to go back to Republic space for fear of revealing their hidden location.

I don't think the Ascension has anything to do with consuming the girls -- although this is a fun fairy tale idea -- because we have already seen one of the girls, Mae, ascend. We have already heard Mother Aniseya tell her that her duty is to maintain the Coven's wisdom.

So no, I don't see anything in the episode that makes consuming the girls a possibility. Unless we just think of this as consuming them by forcing them to remain in the Coven despite their wishes.

 

Id say that fairly normal of many relationships or being smitten with someone. If you are commonly someone who attaches easy then you will get possessive at the thought of potentially losing that person. Loving someone doesn't mean you will be ready to not have them in your life anymore. Thats why there are so many bad breakups because there is always one that's not able to let the other go. Is that selfish? perhaps, but I don't think that's pure selfishness to not want to lose that person. its that one has a emotional attachment to that person and it hurts to not have them in their life anymore.

Even if there were, which there probably was. I think the idea is that Doctors wouldn't find anything wrong with her. Because she was healthy. Doctors wouldn't have been able to do anything if she suddenly dies during giving birth. Although ultimately she dies from a broken heart which wasn't known when he had those dreams. Anakin already had dreams of his mother dying and she died. He then had the same sort of dreams about padme and he was convinced she was going to die too.

 

What you just described is not healthy love. You don't get to own anyone in your life. Even if you get to call that person your friend, your girlfriend, or your wife, or your husband.

If you equate love with controlling someone, possessing them, and only caring about yourself and your own feelings over theirs, then you are completely lost here. People of course feel sad when a breakup happens. It's painful. But you don't a right to own someone who doesn't want to be with you, just because you can't let that person go.

Anakin didn't love Padme in the end. He loved himself and his powers. He couldn't stand the chance of losing her - to fate, to whatever - not for her own life and wellbeing, but for his own. It would make him sad and alone again. And so he decided he needed the power to control that fate. Even if she didn't want it. All he cared about was his own feelings.

That's not love. Not in the GFFA. Or even on Earth.

 

Not all love is healthy love. Thats kinda the point.

To say you don't love someone if you fear losing them and become possessive out of that fear. that's just not how that works.

That just glorifying love to a positive only degree

 

No. Becoming possessive to that level over someone is not love. Its just selfishness.

You can fear someone breaking up with you. That's normal and healthy. Especially in the beginning. But if that fear means the other person can't break up with you because its not what YOU want ... that's not actually love Daxon. Not anymore. That's what we're talking about here.

What you are describing isn't love. Its toxic unhealthy selfishness. That's all.

And back to SW, because jesus christ, Anakin didn't love Padme in the end. He actually hated her, which is why he kills her. She's getting in the way of his own desires. She's not going to be controlled as he demands. He only cared about what he was feeling. His own loss. That is very clearly not love.

 

Anakin is a character who was trained too late. he loved his mother and she loved him. She was all he had. He clearly knew what was love was and he clearly couldn't stop feeling it. His desire for love couldn't be overcome because he was trained older than he should have been. And then he lost his mother and it emotionally hurt him. he then discovered what the feeling of that loss was like. And then when it came to losing Padme, he basically couldn't lose her and go through that again.

As for falling in love with padme in the first place. Or gaining an attachment if you don't want to think of it as love. That was due to him not being able to overcome those feeling of affection you can have towards someone

Which in the end comes down to unhealthy love because their relationship was a secret as they knew it was wrong what they were doing and he already experienced a huge loss that made him kill a village of tuskans.

Which If you want i guess you could say he was selfish for how he took the death of his mother. he clearly couldn't have loved her because his mother wouldn't have wanted him to react that way. you surely can't have a bad mindset over love right?

Anakin did do some selfish things. Even more so after he turned to the dark side and stopped caring about everyone. but lets not pretend there wasn't reasons why anakin was struggling at the thought of loss.

 

i didn't think anything of that pit until now. good point.
i was thinking the Coven was not so evil, but thinking about that -- maybe not.

maybe the pit isn't for sacrificing.
maybe it's a nexus of darkside energy, like the cave on Dagobah, and the Coven draws power from it.

 

I watched The Empire Strikes Back in theater in 1980, Return of the Jedi in 1983.

Obi Wan & Yoda were untruthful and manipulative towards Luke. They formed my early opinions of the Jedi Order by leaving a bad impression.

The Prequels then confirmed many of my previous critiques. With Attack of the Clones being a couple years before Karen Traviss had a novel released.

Now, with no EU in sight, we have the Acolyte again presenting a complex view of the Jedi. It's right on point, and very much within the realm of how Lucas presented them himself.

I hope this show kinda does what Lucas did in the long run, which is leave things somewhat ambiguous where different people can form their own opinions, so you can tell them they are wrong and don't understand Star Wars

 

The degree to which you just don’t get it is stunning sometimes, Dax.

 

Maybe it was something like the Jewish temple tradition of Yom Kippur, with the scapegoat. 2 identical twins 1 of which is slaughtered and the other cast out with all of the people's sins. Maybe a variation on that, one who lives and the other end of the thread lies in death?

As for whether they are dark side, did you see what one of them did to that padawan?

 

I considered that maybe Mae was supposed to be sacrificed, and the Jedi intervened, leading to the slaughter. Classic morally-driven external intervention in local cultural practice that goes horribly wrong.

 

I thought less about physical sacrifice and more about sacrifice of your individuality? OSHA’s discourse was a lot about I want to be my own person I don’t want to be one with you and the ascension is said to be a sacrifice of yourself to the power of many?
I thought something like becoming an indissoluble dyad where the two persons do not think individually anymore they are connected and just one person and their power is therefore enhanced and transmissible?
I give you you, you give me me and all that?
So that one can then use the power of both becoming a lot powerful than only one but having to sacrifice individuality as they become only one mind?

Or even more the ritual could make you part of a sort of “hive mind” of the whole coven that makes the power of many stronger but yours weaker if alone and you are controlled by the hive mind?

Or even allowing yourself to be a “vessel” for a power that takes control of you?

There are anyway things that may make you believe the ritual could end in the physical or mental death or loss of the girls:
-ascension/ascending recalls going up towards the sky , leaving the terrestrial plane and your physical envelope
-the ritual is carried out in front of a dark pit
- there are two girls that “ascend” and there are two cloaked figures at the sides of mother aniseya, maybe ready to take control of the girls?
- mother aniseya showers then with affection, says that they can have all the spicecreams they want, is extremely reassuring and loving but it seems that the objective is to convince Osha to go on with the ritual… and her affection is somewhat creepy?

I am more on the side of the ritual making you somewhat loose your individuality and the control of your mind/yourself to benefit the community or to let it be controlled by a hive mind/other power (that could be the sith …).

For sure I think the ritual is not only what we saw because Osha’s fears and the explication that was given together with the song/rhymes the girls chant in the forest make you believe it is a big deal and implies doing something that causes a lot of fear (it is said is about going through fear and such). So it’s probably not just a chant and a marking…

 

Wonder if Smiling Helmet will seduce Osha via promising to teach her how to protect her individuality.

 

In spite of my theorising the Sith were on Brendock, I think the people in hooded cloaks were just that - people in cloaks. There are archers wearing such cloaks in other scenes.

Regarding the witches and the possibility of sacrifice (of a person's individuality), I'm not sure the ritual was an attempt to do this, other than to demonstrate a commitment between the group and the children to their way of life at the point of rebellion (teenage years).

Afterall, Mother Aniseya seems to accept Osha's decision to leave after the interruption of the ritual by the Jedi, and was going to discuss this. She may not be able to overrule the power of many though...

What happens at that discussion, which we haven't yet seen, is anyone's guess. What did Mae witness? Who was there? Mother, Coven and...Jedi? Sith?

 

In terms of Mother Anisaya and her seeming to agree to Osha joining the Jedi, maybe it was just that. Seeming to. She had, after all, commanded both Mae and Osha to lie to the Jedi, despite that Osha had already made clear this was what she wanted. Maybe the tears are for a different reason than we might at first think. Were Mae's actions entirely her own choice eg - we don't know whether Mae has been put up to locking Osha in her room and setting fire to it.

 

There could be a lot of misdirection in this episode. Not just with the POV framing but with the actual intentions of the Coven.

Right now its only Mother Anisaya who seems to love the twins, or have some kind of more personal relationship towards them. (even giving them tweets/candy - another classic Witch/Children trope) The others seem a bit more distant. They like don't really have a relationship with them.

Conceptually I do wonder why adding just two girls 'saves' their Coven. They're just two of them. The speak of this gift of life, but that doesn't quite match up. And it's not like the Coven is that old or anything. There's still plenty of time to recruit. After all that's what the Jedi are assuming has taken place. That the Coven found/took kids from somewhere else. So it's possible in their minds. Even if they found recruiting directly difficult, it has to be easier than literally using the dark side to create children and then raise them (for this ceremony). Why couldn't they just find another planet not in the Republic and look for new witches that way? And if they can create children to add to their numbers, why stop at two? Why not make a dozen or so kids. That would actually add to their numbers in a generational way. These twins feel more special than just ... adding more numbers to the group.

I also wonder if the Witches are all on their deathbeds. That they are not as young as they seem. That this gift of life was vital, not in a membership kind of way, but in a more literal way. The Witches need some Thread power to stay alive or young. And maybe that's why they all died later that night.

Or who knows. Maybe the Witches aren't even dead. Osha thought Mae was dead and she wasn't. Maybe the Witches are all very much alive.

Or maybe not. Probably not. We'll see next week.