The Art of Fight Choreography

The art of fight choreography . . . . it is to strike the balance between absolute, mind-blowing flair and solid, realistic combat tactics. A "real" swordfight can be over in seconds, but an entertaining lightsaber duel should be at least a minute or two.

Now, if a fight goes on too long, I'll start picking it apart for lapses of reality - but usually only after the second or third viewing. Unless, of course, it's so darn entertaining that I don't care about the "mistakes."

Just sayin'.

 

Don't be dissin' my sticks, boy.

Seriously though, glad to hear your project is coming along well!

This could be a fun little game to keep the thread alive.

The Art of Fight Choreography is . . . telling a story, rich with emotion and intent, through acts of physical violence. Certainly the balance of flair and tactics is a part of that, and I agree that over-long fights invite a lot of extra criticism from a bored viewer, but that can be countered by a very important element that is frequently lacking in stage combat - ACTING!!!

Choreographing a fight is easy, even with little training in the craft. Anyone who's seen an action movie has the general idea of how it's done. The really hard part is combining that fight with the characters in a way that makes it actually matter to the audience.

It's not just the flashy elements that keep the audience's attention, it's also the human element. If the audience doesn't care enough about the characters to be bothered with who lives or dies, then there's not enough flash in Hollywood to make the fight worth watching.

 

The acting factor is important, yes, I'll agree. It's just interesting to note that two of the very best fights I've ever seen on film, one of the actors was wearing a black mask & helmet the entire time. He had no way to convey emotion, and spoke relatively little.

Context and emotion are important, but those are elements supplied by the actors and director. My earlier post was referring solely to the movements performed by the actors - hence, there's no real dispute here.

 

Oh, definitely - I never meant to dispute you, just to expand on it.

I just feel like there's more to the fight than physical movements, so I have a hard time pinpointing the spot where the Choreography ends and Direction begins. I think in terms of being a "Fight Director", and take in all of those considerations when arranging the moves. For me, it's essential to understand the characters fighting so that I can make sure that the moves assigned to them make sense for who they are and what they're trying to accomplish. That's where the real "art" of choreography is, I think.

I disagree, though, that Vader had no means of expressing emotion. Body language is very important, particularly when it's difficult (or impossible) to make out facial expressions. Remember, from live theater distances most actors might as well be wearing masks (and in some styles of theater they do, andin many others they wear heavy makeup that's almost as concealing), so conveying emotion bodily has always been necessary for actors. My teachers call these things "Character Choices" - stance, defensiveness/offensiveness, grip on the weapon, whether a particular opportunity is taken or missed and stuff like that.

In the Luke/Vader fights (which are also some of my favorites), I've always been most drawn in by Luke because his expressions of reluctance (in the beginning of the ROTJ fight) and later anger come through extremely well, not just in his face and vocalizations, but in the way that he executes the moves. I'm particularly fond of the wider shots in that fight, because you really get to see all of that "clear mind" stuff that Yoda was spouting go straight out the window.

Vader expresses himself and his attitude toward fighting Luke in ESB by being almost dismissive of him when they start. I think his using only one hand shows his arrogance, and when he just starts throwing heavy stuff with the Force he's basically saying "Bored now! Let's get this over with." See? Character choices!

Again, I'm not disputing you, I'm just expanding on what you said with some of my own thoughts. I love to talk about fighting.

 

"I wish there were a fastforward button on this whole darkside corruption thing. Well.....there is, but I don't think we can find a river of lava on Bespin. But, I can do the next best thing *SLICE!* Great. I made my own kid cry. I feel like a butthole now." ~ My take on Vader's inner thoughts while battling Luke in Cloud City.

Actions speak SOOOOO much louder than words.

 

I hate to say it too, but talk is cheap.

Maybe I'm spoiled from following the LED blade thread, but I'm all for posts having emphasis on being informational yet practical... not so much a bunch of opinions. It's best to see when something we post HELPS someone else regarding the subject... not just offer pie-in-the-sky stuff.

That being said--does anyone have any thinking on the speed of stick-fighting vs. "real weight" weaponry in battles? I'm beginning to think that unless every move is super-speed with the lightest material ever made (with cut-scenes, perfect "takes" and frame to frame speed ups)... viewers become dis-enchanted and simply say "that's too slow, do it faster". It's pretty annoying considering there is certainly an apples to oranges comparison between the following:

* Live, actual steel props (such as full-on, fully funded Shakespeare, etc.)
* Live, 1" OD / 3/4" ID polycarbonate tube LED props (such as Balance of Power... I have no other examples as of yet.. although I want to see one!)
* Film, 3/4" dowels
* Film, carbon fiber
* Film, stick bashing (much quicker than good technique... just very stupid looking to a true martial artist)

And naturally there is hand-to-hand combat, but I suppose I am trying to focus on swordplay so things don't get too watered down for discussion.

I'm also wondering... has ANYONE seen a 100% live performance yet with LED sabers other than Balance of Power??? I can't be the only bloke doing this... can I? I thought I found something once... but it was riddled with hard cuts. Oh well.

I'll post some footage of BOP II rehearsals in a little bit. Hope everyone else's projects are going stellar and with few setbacks!! Heaven knows I hate setbacks and wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy regarding all this crazy choreography stuff...

 

Well, I do the fight choreography here at liberty university, and I'd love to do some LCD stuff, but frankly, i doubt i could get money from the deptarment for something of that nature, and me being a poor college student, I dont have any of my own. I've had my ideas though. It's actually something right up my alley, as Im a theater major with emphisies on fight choreography.

 

Well... that's the environment for you. People appreciate mortal heroes less and less these days, they all have to be Highlanders and Daywalkers and Jedi. You want to be realistic or you want to entertain the masses? Artistic integrity vs. popularity? Indie budget or Hollywood backing? So if you want to break the norm ? which I heartily encourage ? you?ll have to make up for that ?lack of faster more intense? with something else; great acting, unique cinematography, historically accurate production design, etc., etc.

On my own end I?m currently planning a complex fight scene involving cyborgs that won't be shot for at least 2 years. The biggest obstacle for me to work around is to accurately depict weigh and mass without having to resort to classic slow mo effects. Will people appreciate the extra effort? I don?t know? don?t even really care, the scene is more for my own sake.

 

Talk is cheap, yeah, but this is a discussion board after all. I mean, what should it's primary function be other than discussing the topic? I'd love to use it to show off some choreography, but right now I still don't have a camera, and I'm not likely to get one for a few months at the very earliest (hellooo tax return! ).

But getting to the question, I think that the speed thing is used by a lot of filmmakers to conceal a crappy fight. The uninitiated assume that if a fight is fast then it's also dangerous, but in reality it's being done that way to keep the action moving too fast for critical analysis. Personally, I think speed is a function of the skill and athleticism of the fighters and the style of combat being used - a smallsword fight is inherently faster than a sword/shield fight because the weapons are simply lighter and the techniques for using them are adapted to take advantage of that. That doesn't make smallsword "better", it's just different. Same with lightsabers, really - the props are light, and with the current retcon, we're supposed to think of them as being completely weightless and, unfortunately, that mentality has resulted in the "spastic chimp with a stick" look that so many viewers expect. It's extreme, and I don't like it, but it's permeated the community and there's nothing to do except to produce something that defies that norm and proves that a fight can be good without looking like majorettes on speed.

I say screw the expectations and make the fight the way you want the fight to be - so long as it's consistent with the characters and the story then someone is going to appreciate it. I don't think that any artist should compromise what he wants from his craft for the sake amusing a few more people. Do your art to amuse yourself and the audience that appreciates it will find you.

Superheroes are fun and all, and they certainly have their place, but I like the mortal heroes better. When I watch a fight, I want to actually have to wonder if and how the hero is going to make it out, and I want to cringe when, say for example, he gets his hand cut off, or he gets the snot beat out of him, or he runs out of bullets at the critical moment. When I suffered through "Blade", or the PT, or an episode "Highlander the Series" I was bored to death with the fights because I didn't care who died (and occasionally wished that the villain would win), what little of the movement was actually visible was dull, mindless stick-bashing at hard-to-follow speeds, and the actors looked about as interested in what they were doing as I was. That's not art, that's the basest kind of graffiti. It clutters up the landscape and often covers up the really good stuff that's out there.

 

Lazlo-- *I* would appreciate that work!!! I realize the difference between film & theatre, believe me.

Phayze -- I agree, screw what people think, I do things for my own satisfaction (and to give back the community & kids)... but it's nice when people realize the difference between plastic "floppy" swords, and rigid, full weight steel or polycarb.

Whiteley -- Anyone can wire up a super basic LED saber for about $60. PM/e-mail me for more. All you need is: a polytube w/ mirrored tip, a blade mount/emitter, an LED, a resistor, a heatsink for the LED, a switch of almost any kind, batteries with a close forward voltage (Vf). The hilt can be as simple as a sink tube. Here is an example of the actual "stunt" saber we'll be using to replace the original "Flange" saber of mine (Novastar's) for BOP II:

Novastar's "Flange" (version 2, stunt)
[image=http://ns5driver.com/Dscn2703.jpg] [image=http://ns5driver.com/Dscn2704.jpg]

Necrolosis' "Charontas" (version 2, repair)
[image=http://ns5driver.com/NecroStaff/Dscn2689.jpg] [image=http://ns5driver.com/NecroStaff/DSCN2684.JPG] [image=http://ns5driver.com/NecroStaff/DSCN2688.JPG] [image=http://ns5driver.com/NecroStaff/Dscn2694.jpg] [image=http://ns5driver.com/NecroStaff/Dscn2698.jpg]

The photos have NOT been altered in any way. Neither of the saber's have a sound/light/driver board running them. Not necessary.
Click on the images for larger versions (or if "squashed").

The Flange saber is slightly more expensive than $60, but only because I used a rechargeable 3.6v 2400Mah Li-Ion battery and a recharge port. That battery is about $10-$15. Basic AA Alkalines are... what... 50 cents each maybe? Anyhow. Food for thought, maybe?

If anyone is interested in some REALLY cool staged combat, I'm in the process of having my own light and sound driver board designed. It will be a high-end tool for LED (or whatever style) props, and certainly will be a lot of fun! I hope I'm able to give back to the LED community that which they gave to me via the help, information and support they provided over the years.

 

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=4C00E25627F43CDC

here's something my brother and i did right after i got my camera this x-mas ... we are entering the LCC.

 

As i am trying to put together my contest entry, i've been studying just what exactly makes a good lightsaber fight and fight scene in general, and i've come to realize the answer. While it can be said that two extraordinary martial artists can make or break a fight scene we mustnt forget the most important parts of adapting a fight to screen; those parts are camera work and editing.

You can come up with a move that you think will blow your audience away and it may be the coolest move ever devised, but your camera is much more than a device of documentation, it is the essential means of communication from your imaginative perception to your audience. If your camera can not speak the same language the fantastic images in your mind speak, then thats one point against you. So, if your guy strikes high, move the camera up a bit and follow it for a second. If you want to capture a fierce saber lock, dont beat the horse to death, we know your guys are in a saber lock so cut to their struggling faces, cut to the sparks splashing everywhere. Lay down with your camera, get up top a ladder with your camera. Is your guy dead? Dutch angle that thing!

A year ago i couldnt understand why i was drawn to Ryan Vs Dorkman and not as exhilirated when i watched the second best fight online "Art of the Saber" and a year after my personal studies in cinema after my junior year in high school, i've discovered that the RVD camera, editing and pacing is a lot more effective than the AotS camera, editing, and pacing.

Directors, concentrate your energy into your choreography, but do not let your camera sit there on your expensive tripod and give your editors something to work with . Editing can make or break your movie!

 

I dont have any comments on the actual choreograpy other then it was well done and served its purpose. From the looks it the 'mood' seemed to be that the two characters didnt like each other. At least thats what I got. However, I felt they werent intrested in fighting. A simple fix to this would be to stay in a fighting stance, even if your just circling each other(keep balance and footwork in mind while doing that). Simple trick, great results. Good job man. Still looking forward to WvsS

 

Haha! Yea lookin' forward to that too!

 

As interesting as RvD was for camera angles and visuals... there was far too much blade bashing for my tastes.

 

In RVD?

 

What do you mean "too much blade bashing"? Are you trying to say that RvD should have included some sort of plot to add a more emotional element to the duel?

 

NO I think he means the duel itself had to much continuous stick bashing.

 

Im pretty sure that he his blade bashing comment was directed toward silentbats video. RvD had good choreography for its time.

 

No hes saying it included too many uneccessary moves, which i agree but if i were one of the lightsaber choreography judges, i woldnt rate RVD on that, because it retained the most important feature of a lightsaber battle and thats energy.

Besides the lightsaber is a different type of weapon than a normal sword. Duelists in our world battle with heavy chunks of metal while a lightsaber is very very light. I'd rationalize the blade bashing as a way to gain the upper hand on an enemy by "training" his blade and making it go where you want it to go by using the natural resistance between two lightsaber blades.

They dont spark entirely to be flashy, they spark because one lightsaber blade is not supposed to touch another. They're two beams of outward flowing energy and they disrupt each other's current, thus they push each other away forcefully. A talented Jedi duelist can use that to his advantage. But thats the fun thing about star wars, its essentially a sandbox for your imagination and you can come up with all sorts of stupid ways to rationalize the unrealistic, so bottom line is if its done well, i say blade bash.

 

You know, when they first made up the concept of the lightsaber, Lucas described that the beams should stick to each other and try to become one beam. Thats why when you hit then pull away, a flash sparks out because the blades are trying to stay together. It would also explain why when the sabers lock, they shouldnt slide down each other. I think it gives it a very unique way of looking at it.

 

I always pictured them as having texture, which would explain that wonderful grind sound. Texture so small we don't see it, but it's large enough to create a resistance.

I figured this is is why when they lock, is should be difficult to slide down each other, and that's where the acting comes into play, since most of our materials slide against each other rather well.

-Vaportrail

 

Bah. If you want the blades to slide, use the Force.

-Spiff

 

Really? Wow, i didnt know that. I'll have to consider that for my LCV entry.

 

For the record, I meant exactly what I said earlier--which was regarding RvD. As interesting as RvD was for camera angles and visuals... there was far too much blade bashing for my tastes. That doesn't mean RvD wasn't good. Of course it was good. Besides, there are a TON more examples of awful, awful blade bashing in many other fan films. Pretty much most of them.

By blade bashing, this means crossing weapons in any way that does not (visually) threaten a target. Another way to put it would be that at certain times, there was no distinction between the attacker and the defender.

This does NOT mean that RvD did this the entire time. Far from it! I really liked the entire piece as a whole. How could you not. Especially effects-wise, which were top, top notch from both Ryan & Dorkman. The shot list and rhythm was excellent too! But that doesn't mean stick-bashing wasn't present.

You CAN achieve "faster" moves from stick-bashing however. Sometimes, maybe you want that visually. I don't know. But this brings us back to the fact that no actual target is being "addressed". Your stick/saber/whatever can travel far less distance (to the next non-target area), and therefore you can hit faster. Simple physics. Less distance, less time. Also--the actors/blade wielding dudes will have less background "fear" of actually hitting one another--since it would be IMPOSSIBLE even if they made a terrible mistake.

When talking about LED sabers, they are already heavier than the heaviest "film prop" saber. At least that I've seen or wielded. So those manuevers will become slower outright (with the LED sabers). Additionally, when you throw into the mix my crazy-wackiness of actually aiming at targets that visually cross the line of the opponent's body... it takes longer to transition from that target, to another target--which is now about 3 feet on the other side of a fighter, not just three inches in front of him. If that makes sense.

It's very hard to explain in words. So, here are some diagrams (finally I made a few) that might help:

[image=http://ns5driver.com/TCE_Blade_Bashing_Example.gif] [image=http://ns5driver.com/TCE_Correct_Positioning_Example.gif]
Blade Bashing (left) .... Correct Positioning (right)... clicky for readable, bigger images.

Crossing the visual line of the target (mainly in reference to the audience)... is the key. It goes without saying that this can apply to two-handed, one-handed, "staff"-wielding, hand combat, swords, sticks, pencils, licorice, pillows, sabers or whatever.

Also, oops I erased the red saber dude's arm. It was in the way. Maybe it's just following along the "off with the hands/arms" tradition...?

My super-awesome 3-dimensional, wire-frame, super-uber textured stick figures took a lot of time to render. A lot. Same with my awesome, crazy gnarley rotoscoping of the sabers and their dazzling, perfectly blended glow. So don't use them without my permission. You know you want to. So just say no. Refrain. Cease and desist even.