A/V The Book of Boba Fett

Yeah, 'likeness' was probably the wrong word for me to use. I just find it a bit disconcerting that a corporation can now recreate actor's voices and paste their faces near-seamlessly onto other people, and can do whatever they want with these impressions. It caused a lot of controversy less than ten years ago when Bruce Lee's likeness was posthumously recreated with CGI for use in an ad, but people seem far more receptive to it nowadays in instances like Tarkin in Rogue One. Obviously it's a different story when the actor they're recreating is actually involved and, y'know, alive, but it still feels like a somewhat slippery slope to me. At least when Marvel does de-aging the characters are still voiced and largely performed physically (for better or worse results) by the same actors, without AI or body doubles.

I'd still prefer recasting across the board because I think it yields better results, but obviously that's subjective.

 

Well... It kind of is a recast, instead of Mark Hamill, you have a synthesized Mark Hamill voice made by a robot + a double...

At that point just recast him if you aren't even using Hamill for the voice-over.

 

Ohhhhhhhh man this makes so much sense. The whole time I was watching the CG Luke scenes I kept trying to mentally place his voice and figure out why it sounded so weird and tonally and emotionally "off." I expected it to be Mark Hamill like in S2, but within the first scene I decided it couldn't be Mark Hamill, both bc it didn't quite sound like him and bc Hamill is a really excellent voice actor and the line readings were so terrible and emotionless. When I tried to place it I decided the thing it sounded most like was Luke in some of the video games I've played, like Empire at War, where they got some journeyman voice actor to do his best Mark Hamill impression and then fudged it up with electronic effects. And from that I concluded they must have hired one of the voice actors who have done Luke in the past--one of the least convincing ones--and then given him reaalllllllly crappy direction. When I came on here and people said it was Mark Hamill again I was quite confused.

But yeah, I mean, this is absolutely an abomination and needs to stop yesterday.

 

Consent is really key here, which is why I think it will become a part of contracts. Peter Cushing's family may have consented to Tarkin in Rogue One, but *he* didn't. Granted, couldn't because this was never even conceived of. However, LFL owns Tarkin and his likeness. That license may allow carte blanche even with digital facial re-creation technology as well as photos, drawings, paintings etc. They may not have need to get the family's consent, but did it out of good faith.

The thing about all this stuff with digital Luke is, Mark is here and he seems to be really supportive of this usage of his likeness and voice. He's here for it. Carrie may not have been. What about Harrison? Sounds like they are using it in some capacity for Indy 5. Will they do something with Han?

If they ever get around to making film or live action media post-TROS with Rey, you can almost be certain this technology will be used for Force ghost Luke.

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So are we even still using spoiler tags in this thread?

On the subject of Deep Fakery, here's my opinion: Do they have the permission of a still living actor? If the actor is deceased, do they have the permission of their estate? If so, then I do not see an ethical issue. Besides I think Disney realizes what bad publicity it would generate if they, for example, made an entire show about Young Princess Leia using Carrie Fischer's likeness.

On fan expectations: A long time ago I read a fan comment that puzzled me. It was along the lines of "I've always hated Lando Calrissian because I made this backstory in my mind of Han Solo finding the Falcon in a junkyard and slowly fixing her up like a vintage car, and that jerk Lando ruined it by saying Han won it in a card game!" I was dumbfounded that someone could be so upset because, essentially, they invented their own movie in their mind and the finished product didn't match it exactly. That being said, it's also on the people making and marketing the show or movie to be honest about it. It's called "Book of Boba Fett". Even if this show was just called Star Wars Anthology it would still be weirdly paced for an ensemble show. In contrast The Mandolarian S2 did a good balance of promoting Ahsoka while still focusing on Din. Or you can compare it to "Zuko Alone" from Avatar the Last Airbender. One episode without the title character is a novel change of pace, doing two of them in a row is odd and off putting.

@CaptainPeabody

Spoiler

I disagree with the idea the the scenes of Luke and Grogu served no purpose to the story. Admittedly there's not much insight to Luke as a character, unless you count that he's obviously drawing on his teachers for his own teaching style. But we see Grogu flashback to his painful past, we see him learn to jump and become more capable of defending himself, and seeing him on the Jedi path sets up his choice at the end of the episode. (Speaking of which, we all know he's going to become the next Tau Vizla, right? There's a reason they mentioned Tau in chapter 5). Grogu is slowly making the transition from a cute pet to a bit more of a character. I'm not claiming it's the most deep, introspective, groundbreaking character work we've ever seen. But I think its purpose to the story is more than fan service. And I think its absence would be noted, it's comparable to how odd it would be if Boba just told the audience about spending time with the Tuskens and we never actually saw it. The audience reaction would be, "Wow, that sound like an important part of your character journey . . . why was it offscreen? Why didn't we get to see it?

Spoiler

What are you talking about? Lucasfilm killed off Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, *and* Admiral Ackbar, they're not afraid of fan reaction for killing off minor characters. Besides Max Rebo is a little blue elephant man who plays music and covered his eyes in fear when Leia pulled out the thermal detonator. Is it really surprising the audience would find him endearing? I distinctly remember feeling bad for him the first time I watched the sail barge explode as a kid.

 

I mean I think this is the case, but it's bewildering to me that they did it this way instead of: In Episode 1 Boba Fett realizes he needs to hire muscle because...of course he does? Like obviously? What??! And so in Episode 2 he calls Din. And then we engage in the actual story for six episodes. The Cad Bane thing, too: if he was going to be in it, why isn't he...in it? Put him in the first episode. Let's let that play out.

I think because it's not handled in a particularly nuanced or interesting way. I mean, first of all: the degree to which Grogu is or is not, developmentally, a toddler is...unclear!

But next: everything you wrote under the spoiler tag is 100% right and would have been very great to deal with in the episode itself. Luke is a guy who...has lots of friends and loves his family! He is either currently or will soon be training his own sister in the Force! And so if the show wanted us to feel like he's unsure how to synthesize what he knows and the old teachings...that's interesting! But it's not in the episode. If Luke is worried not just about Grogu's relationship with a father figure, but his relationship to this particular person, that's also interesting (especially given that Grogu has used the Force to STRANGLE someone!) and also not in the episode!

But most of all: Luke is CEO of Seeing the Good in People. It's surprising that he doesn't talk to Ahsoka about Din, or see that he actually did a very good job of taking care of Grogu, protecting him, and instilling some values in him; he can probably also see that, despite being a bounty hunter from a murdercult, he has now multiple times put his own life on the line to save the kid from Imperial custody, and then fought specifically to deliver Grogu to the Jedi... so if what's going on here is Luke is worried about the Mandalorians... look, I don't want more CGI Luke, but if this is what we got and we're we're likely to keep getting then I want him to give Din Djarin, #1 Best Star Wars Dad two seasons running, the same courtesy he gave a former Imperial special forces officer he only knew for ten minutes.



After all, what is Din showcasing in this moment if not George Lucas' very own ideal of nonattachment?

 

Yeah idk I feel like from the time I was a kid I got used to critically analyzing music and movies and TV and books with my brothers; it's in some ways tied even more into the art I enjoyed as a kid, and is not a "secondary" critical thing I learned as an adult.

Also the idea that analyzing/critiquing art is primarily a negative thing that ruins your ability to enjoy things but does not at all reflect my own experience. While it's fun to very occasionally just tear into something I really hate, I do the overwhelming majority of my critical and analytical thinking about art I like, and an even larger proportion about art I really like and/or that means a lot to me personally. At this point in my life I watch very little television and if I don't like something on a pretty immediate level I just don't watch it or think about it.

The two modes aren't even mutually exclusive, really: I absolutely enjoyed last episode's "fly your Naboo Starfighter around real fast" sequence like a little kid.

I also recognize that that's not how everyone immediately consumes art the same way, though, and I have no issue with people who enjoy something I dislike or find flawed. Whatever critical things I say should be taken in that spirit.

Yeah I mean I want to highlight this because it's absolutely the biggest issue with the character of Grogu and will be going forward, especially as they seem poised to make his character and motivations and choices a more central part of the show.
Is Grogu the equivalent of a human toddler? Because if he is, then very little in this episode makes sense. You should not be training a toddler "to defend himself" with super powers; you should not be telling him long stories that you apparently assume he understands; you should not be disappointed that "his heart isn't in it"; you should not be offering him a consequential life choice that will determine his entire future.
It seems like the producers want to sort of have it both ways, with Grogu both as an adorable infant plush doll and a Yoda-esque "cute but powerful" Jedi trainee with a tragic backstory. Which I mean maybe that makes sense with his species, but they should really pin it down before it gets too weird. Even just having him be able to speak or communicate would make things make a little more sense.

Yeah I mean I think this is related to the above. If Luke is just sort of acting as Grogu's babysitter and guardian as he grows up (which is sort of what last season implied), then it potentially makes sense for Luke to continue taking care of him and maybe even to let Din visit periodically while he does so. Though you could also make a case that Mando's very occasional presence as an different-religion could-be-killed-at-any-time bounty-hunter surrogate-Dad-figure would be disruptive to the kid's stability and happiness in his new life and so maybe the best thing is for Mando to let go and let him grow up in peace. Which seems to be more or less the case the cult leader lady made in Season One and the case Ahsoka makes in the cliff scene. Up to that point the episode makes sense. It's classic parental-conflict-drama stuff, really, and it wouldn't exactly apply to well-adjusted adult Luke's friends and family members.

If on the other hand (as it appears from the training scenes) Grogu is an older Padawan-type (analogous to Luke training with Yoda) on the cusp of making a big commitment and becoming Luke's first true apprentice, then you kind of have to throw out all the above. Instead what you have is a coming-of-age moment where it makes sense to offer Grasshopper a final choice between two divergent paths and two lives. And I mean I do think that some of what I said is in the episode at least in the symbolic thing of making him choose between Mandalorian armor and Jedi Grandmaster Yoda's lightsaber as symbols of two ways of life and religions and lifelong commitments. The fact that Mando is a surrogate-father-figure can still apply, just in a slightly more mature way tugging him in one direction while his Jedi background tugs him in another.

If he's the equivalent of a human pre-verbal 1.5 year-old, though, then that just doesn't make no sense, period.

And yes, it would help an enormous amount if Luke came off as warmer and more understanding towards Grogu. It would also be nice if he talked to Din and did the classic EU Luke thing where he affirms the goodness in someone and helps push them towards redemption. There's again no reason for Ahsoka to be there; it would be much more effective dramatically and character-wise for Luke to be the guy talking to Din about Grogu and affirming him but also asking for a sacrifice for Grogu's good. Especially because in scenario one above they're basically Grogu's two competing parents, and so they're the ones who should come to some kind of mutual respect and understanding and decide about what's best for him and how they'll handle those relationships and the religious difference and things like visits.

But the reality is that they are clearly working around the fact that their Robot Luke-Puppet is incapable of coming off as understanding or warm or pulling off any complicated character emotion whatsoever. Which such a scene would call for in spades. Also that, in this episode and the rest of this limited series, they're clearly more interested in doing fan-service scenes like "wouldn't it be cool if Luke trained Baby Yoda just the way Yoda trained Luke" than they are in checking the logical boxes to service their own plot.

So yeah, I guess in the end they just sort of replace the character and plot stuff that would make it make sense with "it's THE JEDI RULES." So it's very understandable that that's what people are reacting to.

 

I'm the opposite i got less critical as i grew up because i realized just how dumb it all was and pointless...The world already sucks as it is, it's probably not gonna get better so i'm just gonna enjoy the stuff I enjoy and have at it.

Granted i also don't see Star Wars as art and will always considered B movie material at it's heart so. I have low standards for this franchise being super classy.

 

Maybe Grogu's and Yoda's(and Yaddle!) species physically matures slowly, but mentally matures quite fast. Grogu can perhaps understand far more than he seems outwardly capable of.

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That's how i see it.

I mean he's a baby...But he seems more than just a baby.

 

I don’t think I should force myself to change how I perceive storytelling just because it’s Star Wars, that’s just being insulting to the material. I watch things that are objectively more childlike than Star Wars, such as Dragonball, it doesn’t change how I interact with the storytelling. I’ll acknowledge both the strengths and weaknesses of the material as it’s presented to me.

And that doesn’t mean that I’m not engaging with the story or “looking for flaws”. I know what works for me and what doesn’t, and they don’t invalidate each other. No Time to Die was my favourite film of 2021, the ending made me cry and changed the way I looked at the character of James Bond. Also the villain was underwritten with a unclear motivation and plan. See how that works?

I get that some people are sensitive to seeing criticism directed at things they like, but that’s the nature of the beast when it comes to large groups of people discussing art and storytelling.

 

issue is one person weakness is another person strengths

Example

I think A New Hope is a boring slow movie with weak characters and not very engaging.

I think Phamtom Menace is far more interesting with a more engaging story, characters and plot.

Others would argue the opposite but if I had to pick between Phantom Menace and A New Hope I’m picking Phantom Menace


Also if those of us don’t wanna be critical that’s our choice and we can do what we want. I don’t judge your life

 

You like TPM more than ANH... so what? It’s not an issue. At no point did I suggest that people should hold uniform opinions about art and storytelling. I’m not arguing for a hive mind here or suggesting people have to consume media a certain way.

Really, that’s what you’ve been suggesting, when you said that the fans should learn to be quiet and accept mediocrity rather than express their criticisms about perceived flaws. You’re being very hypocritical here Jid.

 

I'll add that the ideas, how they're handled and presented, and the craft of the storytelling is part of what makes me enjoy a piece of art or not. I like all the stuff that the first four episodes of TBoBF contain, but think the way it's handled is kind of disappointing and squanders the potential of it. I have trouble liking this last episode because I don't understand why Luke is doing what he's doing.

Honestly it would rule if Din didn't like Luke.
I also was hoping they'd connect about Tatooine.

"Wouldn't it be cool if we showed clones instead of some new information that deepened the situation at hand?"

This is how I felt for some of the end of Season 2 but it makes a lot of his behavior from earlier episodes sort of disturbing in a way I don't think the creators intend.

 

Yes, I see how that works, seeing as that's precisely the sort of lens I described in the first place. You engaged with the James Bond film on an emotional and nostalgic level, which is why you cried at the ending instead of sitting there with scowl on face and arms folded, muttering to yourself about the underwritten villain. All I'm saying is that's a good way to approach Star Wars, too. Speaking as someone who regularly engages with a space opera franchise meant for twelve year olds while simultaneously heading a little more rapidly than I would like toward the ripe old age of 50, I do see it as the best way.

You've misunderstood me a bit if you think my comments emerge from a place of being "sensitive to seeing criticism" of something I like. I like seeing people enjoying Star Wars, but it affects my personal enjoyment of the material precious little when others don't. Just offering my own opinions, as we all do.

 

The difference is though, I’m happy to acknowledge and discuss the flaws of that James Bond film whilst simultaneously celebrating the things I love. I don’t roll my eyes and tell people to just focus on the good stuff or chastise them for consuming it the “wrong” way.

 

That thread is a bit of a cop out though, no? If the show, from episode one (or chapter one or whatever) had had similar jumping around to other characters then fair enough, but suddenly doing it 5 or 6 episodes in is incredibly jarring and tonally confusing. Waving it away as "Well this show is about characters impacted by Boba Fett" is a bit weak.

 

Luke in Mando S2 was done in the same way. Watch the episode of the Gallery they released about that episode.

 

Sometimes i feel like Mandalorian, Ashoka, and Book of Boba Fett (And whatever else) was sorta just one big Super Show.

Like IDK....Age of the New Republic or something like heck.

Heck you could tell the same stories, same episodes, and not change a thing but it would all just be one super show.

Like since I sorta see Mandoverse (The collective show) as essentially The Clone Wars of The Era, but actually just give it all one big Super Show title.

 

Well of course, Ahsoka and Book of Boba Fett are spin offs of the Mandalorian. That's the nature of a spin off show, that it fits under the umbrella of the original show.

 

I'd be surprised if Disney haven't looked at the Arrowverse and gone "we want one of those".

 

Nobody is rolling their eyes or chastising anyone here, and you should feel free to view Star Wars through whichever personal lens suits. I think my comments are perhaps being interpreted as more of a personal slight than was intended, so I'll wrap up my side of this conversation here.

I think there's truth to this. A few years from now, we may be able to look back at the "Mandoverse" shows and more clearly see the method to the madness, as characters and storylines flow freely between series. Maybe Book of Boba Fett S1 will someday be better known in the fandom as "Mandoverse" S3, Ahsoka S1 as "Mandoverse" S4, etc. (which also works well with the idea that the endgame of all this will be a loose Thrawn Trilogy adaptation).

 

We are in an age where there have been more than one 4-way superhero TV crossover in recent years. I suspect audiences have gotten pretty adept at this stuff.

 

I mean i'm sure they are thinking they are replicating Marvel but I always forget Arrowverse is also a thing.