The brilliance of Anakin's turn and Padme's death...

I think one of the aspects of the prequels that is often overlooked and also underrated is Anakin's turn and the circumstances surrounding it and his motivations, etc.

Obviously the driving force behind it all is his fear/visions of Padme's death. His goal then becomes to obtain the powers which are necessary to save her.

The most brilliant aspect of his turn in fact is the dramatic irony of that fact. When he joined the sith, he believed he had attained that goal of becoming powerful enough.

Most people seem to complain that Padme's cause of death was lame and was a terrible reason as opposed to Anakin actually killing or murdering her. But as we all know Anakin loved her so much and his will and determination for her to keep on living was so strong that it would have been out of character for him to have murdered her even after he became Vader.

The fact that Padme died of a broken heard or by losing yher will to live was a far more brilliant reason for her to die. Thus making his turn to the darkside now the DIRECT cause of her death due to deppression sadness etc. Of his turn.

It turns that his turn was intended to be what saved her, but in the end turning out to be what killed her. Brilliant.

 

Actually it was just right for the Star Wars saga. He sought power for seemingly sympathetic reasons, but that kind of power corrupts.

Maybe i should bring this up in a seperate thread. Padme's death. A lot has been said about it. When you think of it, what doesn't make sense is that she died of a broken heart, and that was because Anakin turned to the dark side. And yet it all started with Anakin having a vision of her dying. Why would he have a vision of something that only happend because of him having the vision?! If he hadn't had that vision,he wouldn't have turned!

 

The fact that Padme died of a broken heard or by losing yher will to live was a far more brilliant reason for her to die. Thus making his turn to the darkside now the DIRECT cause of her death due to deppression sadness etc. Of his turn.


I agree. I had immediately understood this aspect of ROTS when I first saw it. Which is why I have to shake my head at Lucas' attempt to make Padme's death as some kind of medical result from Anakin's brief attack upon her. He nearly ruined the theme of what their relationship was about with that little post-movie explanation.

 

Actually not sure where you are getting that from. The movie makes it 100% clear that she died because she had lost the will to live rather than as a result of his minor physical assult on her. Your post just confused me as you also seemed to agree at first too.

 

I think hes saying the scene where Anakin chokes Padme could have been left out.

 

I'm going to have to disagree. If it were just Anakin and Padme then the broken heart thing might have worked. But it wasn't just the 2 of them. The fact that she just gave birth to twins and still loses the will to live weakens the character and makes absolutely no sense at all.

Point of fact, Padme should have died offscreen between RotS and ANH to better fit the continuity already established by Leia's dialogue in RotJ.

 

I alwyaws think that Padme has a special connection with Anakin (the Love Pledge scene), and that she gives herself (including all her political ideas, her role as a Senator) to him, devoting to him entirely. That special connection is apparent in Revenge, when Padme can feel what happens to Anakin from the distance. I love the idea of her dying because once he is "gone", she has no strength left. And of course, the irony of Anakin causing the death of Padme while trying to prevent it.

(That's why I like the fact that the scenes about Padme with Bail and the senators were cut, btw)

 

I agree with this. I wish she had died off screen between trilogies. I remember discussion about this before ROTS came out, and people said that Lucas could not just leave the fate of a major character off screen. I think that's true, we would have had to have some inkling as to what would happen to her. But I really don't like the way it went down in the film.

I think it does weaken her character for her to "lose the will to live" because Anakin went evil, especially when she had children. And from a mother's perspective, that doesn't make sense. In fact, it should be the opposite--if my husband went evil/went under the wing of some evil dictator, I think I would have to do everything in my power to keep myself alive in order to ensure that nothing happened to my children.

What I wish had happened was this: Palpatine kills Padme and then frames the Jedi for it. That would have explained Anakin's going nuts on them.

 

I also thought it was smart that Anakin's turn predicated on what we consider to be a good thing, and that's love. His motivations get lost in the shuffle when he is overwhelmed by the power the Dark Side promises him but even when he is Darth Vader, he still loves her.

People tend to underestimate Padmé's own attachment to Anakin. She can't live without him any more than he could live without her.

--MissPadme

 

Well i don't think that would work as Anakin would've sensed Palpatine killing Padme. Nevertheless he did kill Padme by creating paranoia, fear, anger, lust for power and greed in Anakin's mind. Padme could not compete with those feelings and rather than suffer she left the world. I know a lot of people didn't like it and I admit i was one of them at first. However Padme would not be able to survive as anakin would have felt her through the force hunted her down and either killed her or killed the children. Remember the Sith share power with no one including spouses and children.

 

IMO that would totally destroy the meaning of Anakin's turn. Anakin doesn't turn to the Dark Side for revenge, he turns to save someone from an imaginay threat. Palpatine manipulates Anakin's MIND and he becomes a paranoid: he thinks that the Jedi don't trust him, he thinks Padme will die, he thinks Obi-Wan and Padme are together, he thinks that the Jedi are not telling him everything about the Force.... But everything is in his mind. The scene at Mustafar with Padme, Anakin and Obi-Wan is a great example of that. Anakin creates his own demons (with the help of Palpatine of course) and that's why he turns.

So Anakin turning just for revenge or because someone actually killed Padme would lose all the subtlety in favour of a badass Vader killing the Jedi for pleasure or revenge.

 

No, Anakin doesn't turn to the Dark Side for revenge, however, I don't think it would destroy the story of Anakin's fall if he had. In fact it makes more sense to me, given Anakin's brilliance, if he turned due to an actual threat as opposed to an imaginary one.

Looking at Palpatine's attempts to turn Luke in ROTJ--the very real threat to Leia and Han there, and Palpatine's suggestion that he turn in order to save his friends--it would also make sense from a story context. No, Luke didn't turn for revenge, but he did turn based on a real threat as opposed to a perceived one.

I was disappointed that Anakin was so easily manipulated/driven insane by Palpatine.

 

Well, I was really happy that Anakin turned because the dark side (Sidious) twisted his mind and not because of a real threat.

It's more ironic, and "shakespearean" if you want, and it also makes clear that he turned because of himself ("you turned her against me" "you have done that yourself") and that HE is the one who makes Padme reject him. He allowed Palpatine to twist his mind. There was no reason to do that. There was no need to save anyone. Anakin's fears were used to manipulate him.

 

Crap, I meant to say that Luke was manipulated to turn/almost turned. Of course he didn't actually turn. My bad.

I had heard rumors pre-ROTS that Lucas would take a Shakespeare's Othello stance on Anakin's turn; I didn't like the idea then and was really hoping he wouldn't go there, but he did. I'm not a huge fan of Shakespearean tragedies. They're great from a literature standpoint but not enjoyable to read/watch. Not that Lucas ever pretended that ROTS would be enjoyable to watch, I just wish the story would have left the viewer less angry and disgusted. I wanted to leave the theater sad for Anakin, not wanting to slap him and ask him how someone with a midichlorian count of 20,000 plus could be so stupid.

 

In fact it makes more sense to me, given Anakin's brilliance, if he turned due to an actual threat as opposed to an imaginary one.
Yeah, the imaginary threat is the weakness of the "turn". Even from the Jedi point of view its weak.

YODA : Clouded, this boy's future is.
YODA: The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see,
the future is.
YODA: Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

 

I don't buy the "dying of a broken heart" explanation. She was a new mother with two children to take care of; no mother that I know of, certainly not one of Padme's convictions, would simply give up on life with her own flesh and blood to take care of.

The medical droids didn't find anything physically wrong with her, probably because it was a use of the Force that killed her, not a physical failure.

My theory? Anakin unwittingly discovered the Sith secret of cheating death while he was burning on the sands of Mustafar. You can save someone from death...but it has to be at the expense of someone else's life. It seemed implied to me during that scene, as well as the one when Anakin was alone in the council chamber, that he and Padme were linked through the Force. Perhaps, burning on Mustafar and being transferred to Coruscant, he was clinging so hard to life that he was stealing it from Padme. He survived because he drained Padme of life energy.

Thus, in a truly twisted and tragic turn of events, he really did end up killing her.

 

That's an interesting theory, I think I've heard similar explanations before. And that would kind of fit into the scenes we see that switch back and forth between Padme dying after giving birth and Vader being "born".

 

If that were done on screen correctly, so that there were no misunderstandings as to what was happening, I think that would have been awesome. And the choke scene could have been left out.

Or maybe the twins force power was drawing the life out of Padme, that being the reason the Jedi shouldnt have offspring ??

Lots of other possible interesting ways for Padme to die instead of the lame way she did.

 

"A bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It is not a choice? it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force. To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die ? but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply? it would simply be empty, a wound." - Zez-Kai Ell

 

I have to agree with the folks who make the point that Padme had just given birth to twins that needed her. Part of the casting decision for Portman in the first place was that she is believable as Luke and Leia's mother because of the strength and intelligence she radiates on screen. The "dying of a broken heart" choice robs her character of those traits. I don't believe she would have abandoned her kids, based on three films worth of character development.

In the graphic novel version on ROTS, rights after Vader releases his Force choke on Padme, he Force slams her into a wall. While their is no dramatic, head bursting type injury, it was more believable that Vader's non-fatal gesture of anger (slamming her against a wall with the force) combined with the trauma of giving birth immediately afterwards resulted in Padme's death. I also felt that it made a stronger impression; Vader brought about the very thing he became a Sith to try and avoid in the first place.

While the beautiful parallelism of the Padme-giving-birth/Vader's-suit-being-assembled sequences has always astounded me, I never gave much thought to the implications of the force connection established between the two of them during the ruminations scene, and what that connection meant to the parallel assembly/dath scenes. Maybe the Force was at work in some way. That's a very interesting theory!

 

However, we know that Padme was dying for reasons the medical droids could not explain.

 

I just watched the movie again today, and yes, the droids came out and said that she was perfectly healthy but she was dying anyway.

Upon watching it again, I was able to see the subtleties and the Shakespearan tragedy better, and enjoyed the movie better than I have in the past. I don't know if it's because it's been a few years since I saw it. Heartbreakingly tragic but very well done.

Still wish it had gone differently though, and I still feel like the killing-the-younglings scenes could have been eliminated and Anakin's fall still would have been as solid.

 

It probably would've been without that part, but I like it because it just shows how twisted and blind Anakin had become at that point. He was dark before, but never ruthless.

 

I'm very surprised to see how quick people are turning against Revenge of the Sith.
The points made about imaginary threats being placed in Anakin's mind, paranoia, and his intention to save Padme are CENTRAL to the story and to understanding the dark side itself. It was fear that drove him to the dark side. Nothing more. Once Anakin realized he could no longer trust himself, he would descend into total corruption.

Padme's death is left mysterious for the viewer, and as usual droids make themselves useless in providing any answers. Maybe its best left that way. Anakin's death/Vader's birth is another matter that can't be explained by droids either (even some droids who frequent these forums).
The symetry of Padme/Anakin's death is not a real-life situation, but it works.

 

I was against it when I saw the lame homo-erotic scene where Palps names Anakin Darth Vader.

And when I saw Grievous.