Full Series The Clone Wars 7.09 - Old Friends Not Forgotten - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

If you think Kenobi is the type of person to run head first into overwhelming odds or just cut people's heads off because he was slighted by them before then I don't know what to tell you. We've seen Kenobi display some pretty legendary leniency before, and we've seen him be incredibly cautious when Anakin notably is not. Like when he offered Hondo, the guy who previously drugged and kidnapped him, money to get him off a planet he had crashed on. Or during the Battle at Point Rain where, instead of taking his decimated forces into battle, he ordered them to form a defensive perimeter which he notably stayed inside instead of running out of to fight.

 

Two different things.

Bo-Katan overthrowing Satine is an internal affair of Mandalore. Because Satine was going up against the old traditions of Mandalore and Mandalorians were always warriors who likes battles. And Satine was a pacifist, it's only natural for her to face with the warrior people who will not abandon their identity as soldiers who even fought against the Jedi order in the past.

Maul won the duel against Vizsla fair and square without even using Force push or Force choke (so he proved to others that he is the superior warrior without using the sorcerer's ways of the jedi) , but Maul ruling them is still the Sith empire and it's different than another Mandalorian leader is ruling them. Plus Bo-Katan was complaining about the criminals that Maul brought from the beginning, that’s another issue too, even Vizsla didn’t want those criminals around after overthrowing Satine and betraying Maul.

The difference between overthrowing Satine and overthrowing Maul is a huge one.

 

Obi-Wan shouldn’t be criticized for actually defending and upholding democratic practice.

 

EDIT: Reposted to main Clone Wars thread.

 

The whole point that Ahsoka is trying to make is that the Jedi have been overshadowed by politics instead of helping people. When they mention that Coruscant has been attacked what do Anakin and Obi-Wan go right to? The Chancellor. So, instead of helping to liberate a world where a rogue sith lord is basing his various criminal operations of, they go somewhere where there are an abundance of Jedi and the largest concentration of clone soldiers in the galaxy to make sure a politician is safe. Yeah, upholding democracy is good and all, but when the needs of a single politician outweigh the needs of a planet of people, that's where the issue lies.

 

Anakin's the one who brought up the Chancellor, who I remind everyone is his friend.
Obi-Wan points out this is a pivotal point in the Clone War, which is responsible for countless deaths and untold destruction. By trying to end the conflict the Jedi are protecting the people.

I also don't believe Master Windu or Yoda would call back Anakin and Obi-Wan if they could handle the situation themselves, the Separatist fleet that attacked Courscant was huge, and by the events of ROTS was in retreat with the Chancellor their prisoner.

Not to mention because of the Outer Rim Sieges here weren't that many Jedi on Coruscant to begin with, a fact mentioned in the opening reel, the whole point of the sieges was to draw most combat capable Jedi to the frontlines. What Jedi are there are almost certainly doing everything in their power to minimize civilian casualties, and hold the attack force back. They aren't fighting for no reason, they don't just throw themselves at the droids mindlessly there is a plan and taking any Jedi from their current station weakens that position. Anakin and Obi-Wan have the benefit of having recently taken a planet, which leaves their forces open to being redeployed anywhere they are needed, and it just so happens where they are needed now is on Coruscant. Darth Maul is causing local problems on Mandalore, but Dooku and Grievous are causing GALACTIC problems, which I say again includes genocide. To abandon the war effort leaves trillions of other to suffer in order to deal with what is essentially a local conflict.

To me that's not just politics, that is a recognition that Grievous is the greater threat at that moment.

 

Ahsoka was probably just hoping that Trace's hair gets destroyed in the attack.

I know I am.

 

That sounds awesome. Hope something like this plays out.

 

Spoiler

This is when I realized this episode was just going to change the way I look at Star Wars.

 

Ashoka needs to get her priorities straight. The CIS is a far more grave threat right now then Maul and his allies. Obiwan is right.

In a hypothetical situation in which the Sith Empire is not the main threat, it’s like a naive Jedi during the Mandalorian War chastising Jedi for putting more of a focus on defeating the Mandalorians then a few Sith taking over the government of a local planet. Even though the Mandalorians in this scenario have butchered far more innocents in their war then said Sith.

I wonder if the show wants us to take Ashokas side in that discussion or Obiwans.

 

Just how many Clones of the 501st went with Ahsoka?!

Anakin made it out like half of them went with her during the decided divide. Which would've essentially split the 501st battalion in half. I doubt the 501st could've been at full strength anyway, considering they just got done with a battle and had casualties. Thus something like 400 men went to Mandalore to battle the 5,000 strong Death Watch and who knows how many Mandalorian Sundari soldiers have been trained and ready. Even Bo-Katan's warriors could never have numbered more than maybe 50-100. She lost a lot of them already back in Season 5, she had a very small outfit whick seemed closer to 20 tops. While Death Watch was quite large and near unlimited in manpower. Even counting loses during Son of Dathomir(yeah Gar Saxon you fought there too, how you forgot), the Death Watch would've been training new soldiers anyway prior , during and after. It does not take years to train new recruits for basic, two-three months. Even counting what remained of Satine's royal guards and police that remained alive and loyal, the number of resistance could not be as strong as the Mauldalorians.

Even if or when the Republic comes with reinforcements, or even if Fenn Rau shows up with his Protectors, the rest of the syndicate would also show up with their manpower.

I wonder if Gar Saxon is a traitor/opportunist/survivor, as Rebels was aloof with the answers, or if he's acting under Maul's orders to feign allegiance to the Empire. Provided if this is covered here in the Finale. Rook Kast and her fate is ambiguous too. Death Watch we know survives well into post ROTJ, but it remains also ambiguous.

 

What I’m confused about is how Appo is a commander at the same time as Rex.

 

Yeah, it feels a little off. For me, this is overwriting the story I knew before, which was Labyrinth of Evil and the microseries, and in both cases, when Obi Wan and Anakin get the news, it's Anakin who is frantic to get back there, because Anakin's most prominent trait is his worry for his friends, and the fear of losing them. Anakin's closest friends are The Chancellor, his wife, and Obi Wan, and whenever something happens to one of them, he freaks out and will do anything possible to save them, and be miserable until he gets them back.

TCW has mostly been true to this. Anakin worries about Padme, he micromanages Ashoka for a while because he worries to let her off on her own for fear something bad might happen. Another one of his friends is R2. The series always shows this trait in Anakin when R2 goes missing. Here, he is very nonchalant, like he's in a daze, and so happy to see Ashoka again that he barely noticed the call from Coruscant. And she's ice cold towards him as well. It's like when you have a close friend, but you end up at different schools, and then you see that person again with their new group of friends and they give you the cold shoulder.

In Rebels and the Ashoka novel, she refuses to call herself a Jedi, because she feels she abandoned them and isn't worthy of the title, but for all practical purposes, she's totally a Jedi. She does what Jedi's do, follows the code and teachings of the Jedi. she's trained in the force, she uses lightsabers, etc. As soon as the Republic falls, she one of the very first people to start a Rebellion to restore it. Within a year, she's linked up with Bail and they begin planning the logistics of the soon to be rebel alliance.

Also in the novel, Ashoka comes to the realization that she only knows war, and had gotten so used to it that she doesn't know what to do without it, so I don't think her Mandalore mission is odd at all. At this point in her life, she still needs a fight. She also reflects in the novel on the time between when she left the order, and when the Jedi were massacred. She could feel them in the force. She missed them and the life she led. She loves those people. They're her family, especially Anakin, Obi Wan, Plo Koon, Yoda, et al.

That would take some real precision bombing. Only a Jedi could be so accurate.

 

Here's the scene:
Obi-Wan: "No, it's Coruscant. Grievous has attacked the capital."
Anakin: "What about the Chancellor?"
Obi-Wan: "Shaak Ti has been sent to protect him, but Master Windu has lost contact with her."
Anakin looking worried.
Obi-Wan: "Not to worry (regarding the Chancellor). Our fleet can be there within the hour."
Ahsoka: "So, that's it? You're going to abandon Bo-Katan and her people?"
Obi-Wan: "Ahsoka, surely you understand this is a pivotal moment in the Clone Wars. The heart of the Republic is under attack."
Ahsoka: "I understand that, as usual, you're playing politics. This is why the people have lost faith in the Jedi. I had too, until I was reminded of what the Order means to people who truly need us."
Obi-Wan: "Right now, people on Coruscant need us."
Ahsoka: "No, the Chancellor needs you."
Obi-Wan: "That's not fair."
Ahsoka: "I'm not trying to be."

Ahsoka has discovered the location of a Sith Lord, which the Jedi Council seem to consider a priority in Season 5 episode: Revival. Then Maul is ousted in The Lawless (so the Jedi no longer know where he is), but he begins to rebuild his criminal empire in Son of Dathomir. Now he's regained control of Mandalore; which from Ahsoka's POV should be the Jedi's priority (apprehending a Sith Lord). Yet, she's seeing (again from her POV) that Anakin and Obi-Wan are more concerned about the Chancellor, a politician. And a politician who was going to sentence her to death in The Wrong Jedi. Does she see red at the mention of the Chancellor and react in fury? Yes. Has she been trained by Anakin who tends to let his feelings dictate his actions and that has rubbed off on her as well? I would think so.

 

The 501st was split in two in this episode. Rex now leads the new division (the 332nd).

 

Well, one thing that scene does is show how ill-informed Ahsoka is. There's another Sith Lord involved in the attack on Coruscant.

Darth Tyranus

Obi-Wan mentions Grievous's involvement. Where Grievous goes, Dooku isn't far away. Capturing or killing them would be much more influential in ending the Clone Wars than capturing Maul.

Ahsoka is letting her (justified) grudge against the Jedi and Chancellor fuel her words. She even admits to Obi-Wan that she's not trying to be fair.

She's biased against the Jedi and the Senate because of the unfair way she was treated during her trial.

But her own statement confirms that her point of view isn't impartial. She's seeing the situation from a slanted point of view.

She also has a point.

The Jedi have allowed themselves to be drawn into the web of politics. They serve the governing political body of the Republic. They answer to the Senate and its leader.

That servitude does keep them from helping many who need their help.

The people of Mandalore. The slaves of Tatooine. The slaves of Kessel.

That entanglement in the politics of the Republic is what leads to the downfall of the Jedi Order.

The Jedi are right to head to Coruscant. Grievous needs to be stopped, and the Team is the best Jedi for the job.

Ahsoka is right to suggest that the Jedi disentangle themselves from politics.

Obi-Wan and Ahsoka both have valid points. But Obi-Wan has the more urgent one. There's little the Jedi can do to remove themselves from the Republic in the middle of a war. They can do good by stopping the Separatist attack on Coruscant.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

 

Hmmm, well I wonder who was commander before Siege of Mandalore. I can’t see Anakin having Appo outrank Rex.

 

Eh, no. Obi-Wan is concerned with protecting the people of Coruscant, and the entire galaxy through possibly ending the Clone Wars, and not just the “interests of one politician.” It’s a really cynical and narrow reading to say that his instincts are to serve one politician. He’s interested in the greater good of the people of the galaxy, while in this case, Ahsoka is concerned with the good of one people on one planet. Nothing wrong with her concern, but she doesn’t hold the moral high ground over Obi-Wan (pun intended). They are both right. Which is why a good solution was found - to have both rescues happen.

 

This whole conversation actually reminds me of one of Anakins first lessons to Ahsoka.
"Doing what the Council says, that's one thing. How we go about doing it, that's another."

The idea is to recognize that the concerns of the Council are valid, they shouldn't be irrational when disagreeing with them. At very least they need to address the logic behind the arguments they present before going off and doing their own thing, because they are all on the same team after all.

Leaving some people to die in order to save others is a difficult choice, which is why Anakin and Ahsoka always look for loopholes that allow them to save as many people as possible. That is admirable. And such accommodations make sense, as even when the Council isn't exactly delighted with them skirting their duties they can't complain about the results. Because compassion is essential to the life of the Jedi, they don't have the numbers to save everyone but when given the opportunity to do more that is well within their mandate.

The problem I have with Ahsoka's comment is that she wasn't being rational, she was letting her passions dictate her words and ignoring the fact that the battle of Coruscant wasn't just politics, it affected real people on the ground, and its role in the war as a whole affected trillions of others not there. Anakin's compromise shows that even despite the risk to Palpatine and Padme, he saw far clearer than either Ahsoka or Obi-Wan at that moment IMO. The people of Mandalore were in need, the People of Coruscant were also in need. The Battle on Coruscant would have wide reaching implications for the entirety of the war making it the more pressing issue, and yet because he is Anakin he found a middle ground that let both issues to be addressed. Which is one aspect of that scene that I genuinely liked.

 

DING DING DING we got one folks. Using SJW unironically is the best way for me to not care about the dissertation you wrote.

 

MTFBWY

 

Mod Edit: Knock off the baiting.

 

MTFBWY

 

Mod Edit: No baiting.

 

Mod Edit: Nope