Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 201: Holocron Heist Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Overall I liked this episode. It's always great getting to see more of the Jedi temple and I'm glad to see Jocasta Nu involved in these events.

One problem, as has been pointed out, are the rockets that Cad has on his ankles. Even for Mandalorians with lots of experience with such things, they are very tricky to use, and yet he seemed to be floating along more or less effortlessly. On the other hand, these are obviously very small rockets. So I suppose it could be that they are good for slow delicate movements, but with nowhere near the power of one of those big Mandalorian rocket backpacks that can allow you to soar across sizable distances with great speed and surprise. Whereas these little ankle rockets would be of no use use in combat, since you would just make an easy target with them. So the ankle rockets would be very limited in what they can do, and only useful in very specialized circumstances. Still, Cad should have had more difficulty using them.

Now, as to some other issues that have been raised.

Bear in mind that this crystal (I'm not sure what the exact name is supposed to be, either, obviously it's not the Kaiburr crystal, that wouldn't make sense, as that was used in lightsaber construction) which has the information stored on it about known force sensitive youths in the galaxy would indeed be highly valuable information. And this is the reason that it would be stored on such a specialized crystal. Yes, the Jedi often approach parents when they find out that one of their kids is force sensitive, to let them know of the gift their son has and that he might be able to join the Jedi Order one day. But obviously it's entirely up to the parents whether they choose to allow it or not, or whether they delay his admission to begin training with the Jedi until a later time. And it's these potential candidates' names that are stored on the crystal.

Furthermore, apparently this crystal could only be accessed by a Jedi holocron. The sith have their own holocrons, but those won't work or they would have just used a sith holocron. Also, it seems that at least some Jedi holocrons can only be opened by Jedi, highly trained light side force users, it won't work for those who are heavily tainted by the dark side. Or else once they had the Jedi holocron and the crystal they could have taken them to Dooku to open the holocron and access the information on the crystal, without needing a Jedi to open it for them.

As far as Jocasta Nu's abilities go, bear in mind that she was caught completely by surprise by Cato. About the last thing in the world you expect is some weird alien changeling to be impersonating a Jedi in the Jedi temple. Had she known there was something wrong and a fight broken out, she would have dealt with Cato quite handily. And I hope in a future episode we get to see Jocasta Nu show some of her skills.

On a related note, Cato may have had some training with swords or other melee weapons, but she couldn't even deal with Ahsoka, a padawan, and was fighting mostly defensively, but even that quickly failed and Ahsoka won easily. And I think Cato gave the information to the Jedi because she was hoping for some leniency in her upcoming sentencing, she's no doubt probably looking at life in some unpleasant prison for such a crime.

And as to how they got into the Jedi temple in the first place, Dooku must have given them lots of information that only a Jedi Master would have knowledge of. Without that, they would have had no chance of getting as far as they did.

And I think the Jedi were focusing on the Communications Center and related equipment because this seemed to be the only likely target. If the Separatists could intercept Republic military communications and decode them, this would give them a big advantage in upcoming battles.

 

Robimus, you mention the ankle rockets, and how Mandalorians have trouble with a normal jetpack. I'm assuming you're referring to Jango and Boba Fett. Maybe Bane is better than them.

The question I have regarding the ankle rockets...how does Bane control them? I.e., how does he increase and decrease the thrust?

Robimus, regarding them not sensing Parasitti and Bane, I guess the "ability to use the Force is diminished" might be part of an in-universe explanation. Also, maybe they could sense their presence, but couldn't pinpoint it.

Garth Maul, I didn't take Mace's comment in AotC to be limited to their ability to see the future. In the scene they were talking about the creation of the clone army. They didn't forsee it, definitely. But it's more than that. Not only did they not foresee it, they also didn't sense it once it had been done. They knew only because Obi-Wan uncovered it the old fashioned using the old gumshoe method. So their ability to use the Force, both in sensing the future and sensing the present, seemed to be diminshed.

Robimus, Vlad, and GM, regarding the Kyber Crystal vs Kaiburr Crystal thing-- I think this is one of those areas where T-Canon takes precedence over C-Canon. Lucas has often included things in G-Canon which totally mess up C-Canon elements. This appears to me to be the same sort of thing. In other words, if a person is ok with there being both a kyber crystal with information on potential younglings and the kaiburr crystal with Force-enhancing properties, then no prob. If a person isn't, then say goodbye to the kaiburr crystal. Could the writers have given this new crystal a new name? Sure. And with Filoni being a big EU fan, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been very ok with that. But the choice was made. I figure there was a reason for it other than strict laziness.

Robimus, you said Holocrons should be mysterious, not devices that contain things like lists of names. But as dudedain pointed out, the kyber crystal contains the data. The holocron is required to read the data. So the holocron isn't the harddrive. The crystal is. A holocron is the only thing that can read the data on the crystal.


XCell, you say you wish we'd seen something like Mace making an announcement to alert the Temple, and glimpses of some rooms full of Jedi and younglings hearing it. I agree. But I suspect so would the writers and producers of the show. Problem is, they have limited resources to make the show. Plus, it was actually the 23rd ep produced during season 1.

But, it also may tie into what appears to be the overarching plot of these eps. Maybe the Jedi numbers are so low that they really want to keep open the possibility of going back to parents who didn't want their children to become Jedi and ask again. Without that list, it would be tough to know which parents to go to. (Plus, if the list falls into the wrong hands, a nefarious person could try and manipulate those Force-capable children into joining the dark side.)

If the numbers are low, then between that and a Galaxy-wide war going on, we might expect the Temple to be pretty sparsely populated. And given some things Mace Windu said in AotC, it seems that the Jedi numbers are down. Thus, while there are probably more Jedi in the Temple during the episode than what we're shown, there may not be a lot.

Xcell, you complained that if Parasitti knew swordplay why not have her mention it to Bane as they were planning to go inside? But then couldn't someone complain such a statement would be obvious foreshadowing? "I mean, she's helping Bane. Clearly she has some fighting skills. It's unnatural for the characters to mention it. They only did it to explain the fight later in the episode." I think this could be a 'condemned if you do, condemned if you don't' thing.

XCell, I figured Ziro payed Bane.

Garth Maul, you asked why Cato told the Jedi everything. Good question. I wonder if maybe Clawdites are just naturally prone to tattle-tale. I mean, Zam tried to spill the beans on Jango with only a raised voice from Anakin.

Garth Maul. regarding the fact

 

Please do not request links to TCW episodes online.

 

EDIT: Sorry, can't tell people that in this thread.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, though we are well aware of the various difficulties with watching the TCW episodes, please DO NOT request nor facilitate any pirated material. This includes links to youtube, download links, et cetera. Thanks G_M and the LACWAC Boyz.

 

I don't think I'd buy the 'there's not many Jedi' theory, there's got to be more than just the Jedi characters we've already seen. It's a big place. But that's the limitations of a 3D-animated show for you.

I don't see how it would be unnatural to have her or Bane mention it. Maybe Bane could say something like "And I hear you have skills that might be.. useful, in fighting Jedi", so it wouldn't be spoiling/foreshadowing so much, but rather something to look forward to in finding out what certain skill he's talking about.

I thought that at first, but when I saw Hostage Crisis again it seems like Ziro was very shocked so see Bane, like he wasn't expecting him. Maybe it was someone in the Hutt family that hired Bane.

 

Question for people who saw the first airing of this episode on Cartoon Network:

Did anyone notice that the music and sound effects were far louder than the voices?

And this problem continued throughout the second episode.

 

I have no problem with the ankle rockets, and I am gld that he was able to fly as high as he did. I'm tired of seeing stuff being limited becuase of some die hard EU lover or stupid rpg stat. Gosh. I'm hoping that the Mando's can really fly with their jet packs instead of being limited. I hope that we get more flying.

 

epithree, I noticed that also!

In addition, the EQ on the background music was off. It had a muffled quality to it.

And one of Ahsoka's lines at the beginning of the first ep had quite a bit of reverb on it...but she was outside in the open.

You specifically mentioned the first showing. Did it get better on the repeated airings?

 

Wedge Walker: First, it not the Kaiburr crystal so the whole, so forget the canon education class . Yes everyone understands more or less how canon works, that makes it no less confusing in the show. At times the EU has been included, at times it hasn't. I simply wish they would either include it or not bother with it at all. Less confusion that way.

Second, and perhaps why I'm frustrated with your response, this is the Holocron Heist discussion thread yet you include spoilers for the next episode to make your point. I'm unable to argue this being that the second episode was not available where I live, but forum rules are pretty clear about the spoiler situation.

You have a whole thread for that, please take that discussion there.

Vlad: I don't get your response what so-ever. I've never looked at an "episode guide" and I won't be starting now. I re-read Splinter of the Minds Eye a few years ago and remember the Kaiburr crystal. They do sound very similar don't you think?

Now its very possible that Filoni and company simply didn't realize the Kyber crystal sounded like something else, I can accept that. It is obscure and I'm very forgiving of the creative team as I really enjoy this series as a whole. But it is a valid critcism and something that could easily confuse people who have read Splinter.

The fact that it is a seperate crystal solves all the problems I mention anyway.

As to the Ankle Rockets, funny that Jango and Boba don't have that kind of mobility in the films with their jet packs. The idea that Cad Bane is all kinds of awesome and is better at basically everything than anyone else is the easiest answer...but I suspect you will also quickly find a fan backlash mounting against him if he continues to be portrayed that way.

I know I went from liking him to disliking him in the course of one episode, Holocron Heist

 

Yes, I noticed this too and found it somewhat annoying.

It seemed like the music and sound effects were too loud for the voices and at certain times I had to listen extra hard to hear what they were saying. Hopefully this isn't a problem that continues with the rest of the Season and was just a bad airing.

 

Pros:
- Felucia
- Juggernauts! (OK it's just one but still)
- Return of Bane
- Holocrons
- The return of kaiburr/kyber crystals
- Todo 360's humor
- Cool-looking holocron chamber

Cons:
- That Ord guy looks weird
- Cato telling the Jedi about Bane's intentions doesn't really seem realistic
- Obi-Wan pretending to be Ki-Adi-Mundi (LOL XD)
- Todo 360 being somewhat annoying...especially his voice...Ugh!

Overall, it was a pretty good episode, and the pros far outweigh the cons. I'd give it a 9/10

 

WedgeWalker, thanks for the reply.

I also noticed that reverb at the beginning.

You really had to listen closely in order to hear any of the spoken lines. They were easier to listen to when the music became softer and there were no sound effects.

As for the repeated airings, the encore presentation seemed to be affected as well. So I watched the encore with subtitles on because I wanted to experience every single word.

Hopefully, they air it again tonight, so I can see if they've corrected the problem. What a frustrating reality. It better be fixed by the next episode.

 

I looked back at my response. I didn't give any spoilers for episode 2. I would have felt bad if I did.

If you're referring to my speculation about what appears to me to be the overarching plot of these episodes, then I think you should know that that speculation is purely based on the first episode, and the first episode alone. You made an assumption. It was incorrect.

I hope you don't consider that to be an ep 2 spoiler. Honestly.

Regarding your position on the show's use of EU, that's fine by me. You're entitled to feel the way you do.

 

ArrogantJedi, that's exactly what I experienced.

I really hope it was nothing more than a bad airing.

Thanks for your reply.

 

Regarding the audio issues, I went back and watched the eps on my DVR. This time I noticed that even the commercials had audio issues.

If there's fan backlash that Bane is messing with Boba Fett's rep....I must admit I'll probably be amused by that. It would probably be more mature of me if I didn't. But still...

Robimus, I personally find it very unlikely that Filoni and company didn't know of or think of the Splinter kaiburr crystal.

Regarding the episode guide/guild thing...I figure that when Mace Windu uses the term but then his definition of the ceystal is significantly different than the Splinter's... crystal, then we know "this is a different crystal." They may wonder "are they ignoring the old one, or is this a different one, or what?" But given the major differences between the thing in Splinter and what Mace says, it would seem clear immediately, without consulting any sources, that whatever the case, these can't be the same thing. Because even if they were retconing the old crystal to fit the definition of the new one, that is to effectively get rid of the old one.

But as a guy who's not big into the EU, I readily admit that my lack of emotional investment in the EU affects how I see things. I might be simplifying the dilemma.

And that isn't to knock the EU or anyone who likes it.

 

I really couldn't care either, it's just why bother messing with established EU, or at least potentially upsetting the audience that does care about this stuff?

It's the same thing with the Ryloth debacle - nothing was preventing them from using or even modifying extant EU information on Ryloth's structure, but they went ahead and did whatever they wanted and then tried to retcon it afterwards.

Again, not a big deal to me, but some people were pretty pissed off.

 

That's a good point, Garth.

The whole point (apparently) was to appeal to the portion of the audience that know their EU but then they turn around and piss them off by changing things. Better off just making something up and fitting it in.

These discrepencies don't bother me too much but I can see others being upset by them.

 

Sorry to join the party so late. Internet difficulties...

Anyway, loved the episode! It seemed much more rounded and "taken seriously" than the average season 1 episode. The opening battle was amazing and the heist itself quite tense. Did anybody get the feeling that this episode was pretty much from the point of view of Cad Bane? When he's almost being chewed by the vents, I was really rooting for him, and not in an anti-hero way... And I really liked that one episode flowed into the next without the usual retreading that would happen in story arcs.

- I also noticed the audio problem from the first scene. And when Asoka showed up the reverb didn't match the environment she was in at all. very strange.
- Todo was a great character. His design, his movement, his voice. On one hand it's a pity he was destroyed, on the other is was a great scene. I'm glad that they are willing to throw characters away like that and not milk them for all they're worth.
- This might have been the last we saw of Cato as well, which would really show their ability to produce and dispose of character models has expanded enourmously. I think it's great that they addresses the issue of her changing clothes via te hologram projectors. Grantes, those are some AMAZING hologram projectors, being able to calculate all that cloth movement in real time and with perfect realism. But it's not unheard of...
- It seems by now we have to accept that the Jedi Sense is not the precise radar other sources would have us believe.

 

This episode also showed off the extra detail in the environments. The exterior of Coruscant is much much busier and the Jedi temple looked great bathed in that sunlight.

I think though the real improvements in animation and graphics with Season 2 will come later. Apparently in the Council scene Ki-Adi Mundi was supposed to be present, but his model was not prepared yet. I think as Season 2 progresses we'll truly see its improvements over Season 1 - technically speaking. I'm guessing those Geonosis episodes will be a good example..where Ki-Adi Mundi will seemingly be present.

 

That's absurd. It's like me watching a Sam Raimi Spider-Man and saying "that's not right, because Peter didn't get with Mary Jane until Amazing number blah-blah-blah."

The idea that this show is supposed to conform to a decade old RPG description was fan **** to begin with. It will always be the EU's job to conform to the mass media G-level Star Wars, not the other way around.

 

I'm wondering if they touched up the animation later on.

It still looks far superior to all but the late Season 1 episodes to me.

 

I freaking loved this episode.

Cad Bane in that shabby Coruscant apartment, just classic. It felt like watching some place in Nar Shaddaa.. the light and shadow pattern from the blinds... perfect stuff.

The ventilation shafts in the Jedi Temple, just fantastic... totally reminded me of playing Jedi Knight (Dark Forces II). The whole idea of breaking into the heart of the jedi temple, the holocron vault, it's fantastic.

I didn't have any problems with believability. How did Bane get so close to the temple without being noticed, well you heard him talk to Sidious about how he needed a fighter with cloaking device, the works.

The Jedi weren't worried about the holocrons because only a Jedi could activate them... it's weak, but I'll buy it.

The only thing that brought up questionmarks with me is the changeling with the lightsaber. I saw Dave's commentary, about how they went out of their way to show that she didn't have any real skills with it... that may be so, but to me it just looked like she was proficient enough with the weapon. But oh well.

In my opinion one of the coolest episodes in all of The Clone Wars, so far.

 

Things I forgot to mention:

(1) Bane with the toothpick was awesome.

(2) When the Sidious hologram pops up, he says "excuse the interruption....as I was saying, I am in need of your services."

So he had previously tried to contact Bane? I wonder if that's a leftover from when this episode was slotted to be in Season 1.

Also wonder if the emphasis on the state-of-the-art fighter implied that Bane escaping was also part of the original episode.

 

Cato telling the Jedi about Bane's intentions doesn't really seem realistic


Maybe she decided that if she co-operated early on then she would get more leniency and avoid being questioned too hard by the Jedi. It would also ensure that the Jedi would immediately set off to find Bane, forgetting about her. All of which may make it easier for her to escape, at least potentially.