Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 410: Carnage of Krell Discussion Thread

In general, I agree with you about the importance of clones who don't transmit red flags through the Force. Large groups of clones should never hate the Jedi. In fact, positive emotions towards the Jedi would go a long way towards explaining why the Council members don't take precautionary measures against a clone betrayal when they head out to arrest/kill Palpatine.

However, the 501st are considered distinct enough by Palpatine to be entrusted with the special mission to invade the Jedi Temple. This doesn't require pure lack of emotion. It just requires competence. Perhaps a bit of independence and ingenuity would make them better Jedi-killers.

Also, not once do any of these insubordinate clones express any disloyalty to the Republic. As far as Palpatine would be concerned, the only problem is the capacity of some clones to question their orders, but their regular commander is his very own pet Jedi, Anakin Skywalker, and Anakin has no problem with getting the 501st to obey him.

Palpatine should be astute enough to pick up on these subtleties...

Even ignoring the last episode's cunning plan (circumventing a Jedi for the benefit of the Republic), killing a rogue Jedi would certainly prove to Palpatine how competent the 501st are. He'd probably give Fives a medal.

 

Again, it's too early to be dogmatic on this, but in my opinion, sentiments like: "I can't just follow orders when I know they're wrong," are going to be problem for any morally-questionable superior.

Now, intellectually, yes, I can agree that it's fully possible that these sentiments would be overshadowed by the fact that these 501st clones wouldn't even be turning on "their Jedi". Now, that's ssuming that these guys are even with the troopers that assaut the Temple - I think that Rex, and perhaps a few others like Dogma, or Tup, will be elsewhere, in order to give another spotlight on a few "individualized" clones.

But in my opinion, the character development that is clearly going on - from Deserter to Plan of Dissent - is going to play into Order 66, and that the end result will be one or more clones deciding that disobeying the order is, in Fives' words, "the right thing to do."

That's speculation, I admit it. But it fits TCW's theme of the clones' humanity far better than turning Rex into a really smart Jedi killer. In my opinion, it would be ludicrous to spend so much time laboring the uniqueness, the compassion, and the moral capacity of these men, and then have them all participate in the destruction of the Republic they think they are fighting for. It won't be many, but some of them are going to rise above that.

 

@sacharias

That's speculation I happen to agree with. Rex is certainly going places. Perhaps Fives is as well, if he survives this episode.

Rex is the top candidate for Order 66 disobedience, IMO. I like how it's being gradually built up this time, with Rex torn between obedience and initiative...

However, my point was a more general one about the 501st Legion as a whole and how the legionaries' ties to Anakin and their final mission as Republic soldiers shouldn't make independent-minded 501st clones absolutely intolerable in his eyes. Cracking down too hard on the independence which Anakin helped to foster in the legionaries would just turn Anakin against him.

Ultimately, Palpatine needs to ensure that Anakin has no negative feelings towards him and that the clones have no negative feelings towards the Jedi. What happens in this episode will directly affect both.

 

I don't think the majority of the clone commanders see it as participating in the destruction of the Republic. Order 66 is specific in that it states that the Jedi are acting against the interests of the Republic.

 

Some good points...Palpatine needs the clones to be obedient when he's ready to execute Order 66. Questioning the morality of their orders is not good for the goal, unless he's testing them (perhaps to weed out those he needs to?).

As for the clones, they don't have to be anti- or pro-Jedi. They are supposed to be pro-Republic EVEN if that means taking out the Jedi.

Palps goals have to be:

1. Ensure obedience

2. Do nothing to alienate Anakin, but instead keep him more "loyal" to him and what is "right" - not push him towards the Jedi (with a corollary here, do his best to discredit the Jedi for Anakin's sake, not for the clones sake).

3. Ensure the clones loyalty to the Republic over all other considerations

 

That sums it up perfectly.

 

With that, I have complete, absolute agreement. I think that Rex will be the one who actually makes the choice to disobey Order 66, and that his experiences with Cut, Fives, and others will shape him into the kind of man capable of making a decision that grave. There's a sobriety about Rex that makes his choices more weighty, compared to Five's fiery rashness or Cut's philosophical musings.

But as a whole, the 501st is an elite, independent unit, not a legion of visionaries (and again, it's worth noting the majority of the 501st troopers haven't complained about Krell at all. We'll have to see how the unit takes the news of the executions).

I'm referring to the reality of the situation. You're correct, from the vantage point of the clones, the Jedi are the problem. But from the storywriters perspective, the clones are wrong in believing that, and so it stands to reason that one of the "hero" clones will resist.

I also agree wholeheartedly with this. And, not to be nosy, but is this the Valairy Scot from FFN?

 

I'm getting the impression that they are intentionally trying to kill off some of the older clones, and make way for newer batches .... ones with additional behavior modifications.

Rex and some of the older clones (like Fives) have had so much experience with their Jedi that they pick up on that Jedi's traits. Enter SGT Appo... who just happens to be staying back with Krell... and seems to be surrounded by less individualistic clones (even their armor seems to be standard 501st EP3 style, vs. the more personalized armor paint schemes). It seems to me that this is a good chance to kill off the first few surviving batches of clones, so the newer, more stormtrooper-like clones (like Dogma) can fill in the ranks.

Granted, there are some of the older generations of clones, like Cody, but the "new guys" seem to be more TK like than the older clones that have been established.

 

TWO MORE DAYS!

 

Not nosy at all.

I'm "the" Valairy Scot from here at tf.n *as well as* ff.n, for what it's worth.

 

Hmmm..interesting. So at this point, Palpatine thinks maybe the 501st is a threat to him, because they're directly loyal to Anakin and not the Republic?


See, I was never a fan of the whole Order 66 scenario in ROTS. Sure, it was one of the better scenes of the PT, but it could have been a lot better. They got into interesting territory in the first half of ROTS when the Council & Palpatine were both jockeying to use Anakin to their advantage.

I would have loved to have seen something in the PT, where the Jedi move their base of operations off of Coruscant because they're concerned about Palpatine's growing power, and he uses this against them, telling the clones/Republic the Jedi are maneuvering for a takeover.

Then something like Order 66 would make more sense.

 

I think that it's not about the clones being a threat, it's all about getting Anakin one step closer to going to the Dark Side.

I think that Palps intentionally ordered Anakin off-world and put Krell in place (but the order really didn't come from him, now did it? ), with orders to Krell (in essence) use up the older squads & units within the 501st. Even without explicit orders to do so, his M.O. is straightforward, bloody, high-body count meat-grinder victories. So Palps sends him in, with Palps's intent of killing off Rex, and other early-generation clones. This will hurt Anakin even more, setting him up for more of his "I want to be master over death" thing.

The more people who are close to Anakin die, the closer to going to the Dark Side he goes. If Rex dies at the hands of a tactically incompetent Jedi General, then it will add to his hatred of Jedi Masters, the council, the "Powers that Be." It would be made better (for Palps) if Anakin gets there, slightly before Krell orders Rex to his death, and Krell overmands Anakin's objections. If Anakin sees Rex die in a situation that he could have prevented, it'll really spin him up.

It's all about pushing Anakin's buttons. Getting him closer and closer to going to the Dark Side.

 

Yeah, but more specifically, and I'm going to HTR Season 6 spoilers:

The Doctor had to escape his death; the way he did it was hiding in a human size shape shifting robot piloted by miniaturized people called the Tesselector. Since a Deus Ex Machina is a plot device introduced with the sole intention of freeing a character from an unavoidable fate, it really works. And it's also the "God out of the Machine", as you so eloquently put it.

 

Why is everyone acting like that picture of Krell somehow indicates he's gone to the Dark Side? He looks just like he always has... What, is it because the background of the photo, the environment, is red in the photo? I just don't really see how the picture indicates that.

 

Krell has often looked very un-Jedi-like, IMHO. He has none of the serenity, or calmness that other Jedi do. He seems to have no respect for life... he has given in entirely to his role as General... and forgotten and left behind whatever he was before Geonosis.

He is also completely the opposite of Yoda in "Ambush."

Inside a cave, the clones take stock of their grim position: low on ammo, Thire wounded, with only two grenades and one rocket for the launcher against a battalion. Yoda's spirit never flags, however, and he speaks to each clone in turn. He advises Rys to take inspiration not from wanting to crush the enemy, but from himself and his comrades. He tells Jek that his most powerful weapons are not the hardware he lugs, but rather his mind. He tells Thire to have patience, rather than rush headlong into battle. The clones meditate on Yoda's counsel, but the sound of approaching droids interrupts them.

I can't find the direct quotes from Yoda, but in essence, Krell is the polar opposite. If that's not Sith-like, then it is at least un-Yoda-like.

 

Here are some other pictures of Krell:

[image=http://www.starwars.com/img/explore/the-clone-wars/slideshow/ep407/gallery_aa23/gallery13.jpg]

Lightsaber for intimidation against clones:

[image=http://www.starwars.com/img/explore/the-clone-wars/slideshow/ep407/gallery_aa23/gallery17.jpg]

Fives and Jesse return, but not to a hero's welcome. General Krell is livid at them for disobeying orders. Rex tries to claim responsibility, but Fives insists that he be punished, for it was his idea. Krell cares little for such displays of honor. The angry Jedi orders Fives and Jesse to be court-martialed and executed. "Make no mistake. For crossing me, you will pay the price," says Krell.

[image=http://www.starwars.com/img/explore/the-clone-wars/slideshow/ep409/gallery/gallery18.jpg]

Yoda treats clones as individuals, with souls and distinct impressions in the Force. Krell sees individuals with experience (or a differing point of view) as defective. He sees all clones as wet-droids --programmed, disposeable, lifeless and soulless entities. Exactly the opposite of Yoda's views.

I really wish I had a screenshot of Krell glowering as Anakin flew away in Darkness on Umbarra. That was one of the creepier looks any Jedi ahs given.

In general... "The General" is almost as un-Jedi-like in his behavior as anyone we have seen. I sincerely hope that the writers deal with this.

 

What if they made Krell more like

<img src="http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/adama.jpg">

You've had four months to get your act together and so far all you have been able to frackin' do is to complain and whine about how hard it is. Well guess what... It's gonna get a lot harder. Do you understand me? Now I want you to turn around and get your fat ass outta here. GET YOUR MEN READY or I'll find someone who can. DISMISSED!

 

The key difference for me is that Yoda was a Jedi in that episode. He wasn't trying to be a general. He was very much acting as a spiritual guide who just happened to be leading them into the battle objective. Krell is the opposite. He's a general first, and if you haven't noticed, being a general and being a Jedi don't match up. He has to make battle decisions with an army that has no actual rights. He's a product of his environment. If Krell behaved like this before the Clone War, the Jedi should have ousted him.

 

The clones in the command centre who overhear Krell in this episode's preview look visibly shaken.

They may be silent about everything that goes down, but that doesn't mean they approve of Krell's plans. Recall that in The General, Appo takes it upon himself to suggest that they reinforce Rex's battered platoons, only for Krell to shoot his suggestion down. Even clones with the regular blue stripes are rabble-roused by Fives.

I'd say it's more of a legion-wide problem, and Krell picks up on this.

Sounds interesting, but Tup is supposedly as new as they come, and he doesn't seem to know whether he's willing to voice dissent or not. Also, Appo and the regular legionaries aren't shown to be any happier with Krell than the "dissenters". They just have the good sense to quietly follow his orders. Most of them are probably split between "Dogma" and "Tup" views on this whole issue.

 

I mean, we talk about Adama being such a badass. Here's a guy who once ordered one of his troops to go assassinate his superior officer and threatened to nuke a planet. He's no Jedi, but he's a damn good Admiral.

And yet, when we see Krell acting in a similar manner, he's the villain.

 

^ True, but Admiral Adama actually listened to his people if they had a good plan. And he didn't threaten them (too often), if they did something on the fly.

Krell is more like Admiral Cain, mixed with General Custer.

 

.

 

Yes, to be honest I went through both The General and Plan of Dissent forgetting Krell was even a Jedi. He's the polar opposite of the other Jedi in almost every way, most notably his disregard for life from the clones to the banshee he smashed into the ground. I know there are some people who say this is what leaders in battle do, but I think it's important to remember that the Jedi aren't truly generals, they only take that role to pursue peace in all possible situations. It seems war has overshadowed this pursuit in Krell, which makes me hope his character isn't just thrown away or given a copout explanation. He's so different, and in a series of cookie cutter characters this is pretty awsome.

 

He's smiling with his lightsabers out in a pose that appears(*appears*) like he is standing over a dead body. Here are some points on that:
-Since when has Krell ever smiled like that? Since when has he ever smiled?!
-The way his head is down with his eyes narrowed looks "dark". Creepy, actually.
-Lightsabers. The last time he pulled those out......wasn't on the "enemy".
-The whole shot looks darker than usual. And I'm not talking about the dark planet!
-red adds that effect.

If that is what looks like a typical Krell to you....then I'd hate to see what you think is hiding in your closet!

 

Love the title. Just hope there's a big payoff ending to this four ep arc involving clones and not Jedi.