Full Series The Clone Wars Plot holes Thread

That whole scene seemed to operate under the assumption that they've not met since AOTC IMO, and while it's not a "plot hole" and can fit under a new interpretation, that interpretation is far messier than the old one.

Obi-Wan: "This time we attack him together."
Anakin: "I was about to say that."

In reference to the AOTC fight. Ignores the fact that Anakin actually faired pretty darn well against Dooku in their last fight on Naboo. Anakin had Dooku on the stairs and was gripping his throat. Anakin ultimately lost, but it by no means makes sense for Dooku to be so overconfident to take on said person AND Obi-Wan at the same time.

Dooku: "I sense great fear in you, Skywalker! You have hate! You have anger! But you don't use them..."

Did he not sense this the other 100x he fought, the most recent time on Naboo yet again making it clearly obvious that Anakin was filled with hate at the time?

Palpatine: "It is only natural. He cut off your arm and you wanted revenge."

Not mentioning the embarrassments that Anakin suffered at Dooku's hands at all in TCW. No mention like "he nearly captured me once before Anakin, he couldn't be allowed to do it again." Instead he brings up something that happened 3 years and 3 fights ago (one on Tatooine and two on Naboo, unless I'm forgetting something). It's less awkward if it was the most recent time they fought.

 

I agree with you in spirit but disagree that this makes it a contradiction. Even Piell getting killed differently in TCW than the EU, that's a contradiction. The meaning of a line changing slightly is not.

 

Shhhhh..... Don't give them any ideas.

 

If we're gonna be anal about things, everything after the original movie has retroactive continuity.

 

Oh I did "get it"... I was just pointing out the ridiculous nature of your facile comments. That you admit to the notion that basically anything can be written around and explained retrospectively e.g. "I am your father", "Leia is my sister" etc. and then state "you're laughing at the idea" sums up a rather unsophisticated and contradictory argument on your part. It also leads me to believe that perhaps it's you who 'doesn't get it'... And if you think "there's no point in continuing", please don't continue... I think the world will still turn without your remarkable insight. LOL.

 

Yeah, I never admitted that it could be written around, I denied it.

It's about as accurate as me saying that you agreed that TCW completely contradicted ROTS and you think "I am your father" and "Leia is my sister" doesn't belong in Star Wars.

But if your idea of sophisticated and consistent is that anything can be written around and/or that it should, then we're definitely not speaking the same language.

 

I don't like simple, I like complicated but working

And as pointed out Rebels can have Vader and Kenobi dueling without greater problems. "You shouldn't have come back old man" would actually make little more sense that way. Vader also doesn't mention when was the last time he felt Kenobi.

But of course there is certain amount of more powerful emotion if they haven't met since Mustafar. On the other hand would be nice to see bit more dynamic Vader vs. Kenobi fight....

Still I have never said that TCW-duels between Dooku and Anakin would've been really good writing. I would have liked to see Mace Windu dueling Dooku instead (and/or Grievous) for example. (Or Ki-Adi, Plo, Kit, Shaak etc).

But on the other hand Anakin dueling Dooku many times and then finally overpowering and killing him makes his growth as a jedi more apparent. (Let's just hope that "other hand" won't be cut off )

 

Darth Vader being Luke's dad is a blatant contradiction. An accepted contradiction, a forgiven contradiction, is still a contradiction.

I'm just going to quit there, I think it says enough about the difference between our thinking.

 

Nope - when I state "sophistication" I simply mean the ability for you to be able to differentiate between the notion of 'contradiction', 'plot hole' and the notion of a writer being able to play with ideas without compromising internal logic to the point that verisimilitude/believability is compromised. There is NOTHING in TCW that breaks the internal logic of the films... other than the cartoons being a hyper realistic version of the films. The films and the cartoons are not one and the same... they are not even voiced by the same actors (in most cases). That you seem unable to distinguish between them (the films and cartoons) and that you appear to expect cartoons to follow the films to the letter, is what brings the level of your argument down.

Again you confuse things... 'Contradict' alludes to a logic incongruity I.e. something not making sense and contradicting internal logic. Darth Vader turning out to be Anakin Skywalker is not illogical, it does not contradict the narrative, it only contradicts an assumption based off ANH. Luke being a woman, without any explanation or writing around, in Ep VII would be contradictory to what happened in the OT. That's the difference.

 

The reason they gave for the multiple duels between Anakin and Dooku, is that Sidious is actively testing who is the stronger apprentice.If Anakin shows his advancement and power by killing Dooku at some point, then he becomes the new apprentice. If Dooku kills Anakin, then he gets to stay around.

 

Unfortunately I don't think it's up to you or me to decide what constitutes a 'legitimate contradiction'. As I've already stated many of the ones being discussed are not 'contradictions', in so far as what the broad understanding of what the word actually means. Vader being Luke's father is not a contradiction because it easily explained when Obi-Wan told Luke the 'truth'.
That said, of course some work better than others and some are less palatable. However, the point remains that a writer/writers can legitimately play with ideas/notions in order to embellish a story or simply to mess with our assumptions. We don't have to like it of course...

As to why the writers played with these various notions within TWC? Perhaps they did it simply because the chronology restricted them in going in different directions (given the total amount of hours to fill over several seasons)... and after all there's only so many new Sith they can incorporate into TCW. Perhaps they did it to **** with fans? Perhaps they thought that most 'normal', 'rational' people wouldn't have an issue with Anakin duelling Dooku in a cartoon set between Star Wars films? Who knows?

 

This is the single most horrifying bit of speculation I've ever heard. I know you're joking, but oh my god just imagine...

 

Another plot hole is that on Rookies Ventress calls Grievous Master, but she doesn't seem to have any respect for him on Arc Troopers.

The ROTS Dooku V Anakin and Obi Wan fight implied that it was the first time they fought again after AOTC. Anakin and Dooku shouldn't have fought at all during TCW, those duels just make their movie duels less special and makes it really annoying for people like me who really wanted to see a Dooku V Mace duel.

Anakin and Obi Wan being involved in the same battles as Grievous and Dooku was a bad idea, it makes the ROTS bit where they are on Grievous's ship much less of a big deal. Arcs like the Malevolence arc, the R2/R3 arc and the S2 Grievous arc really took away from the coolness of ROTS.

They could have used some more Dark Acolytes or CIS commanders that could fight the Jedi in person as recurring opponents for Anakin and Obi Wan instead of Dooku and Grievous . Lok Durd looked like he was quite tough, it's a shame he was made in to a coward, he should have been made like one of the Neimodian Brutes from the ROTS video game wielding a weapons that a lightsaber couldn't destroy.

 

So has anyone got any more TCW plot holes or are we just going to have neurotic arguments for 60 pages?

edit:ninja'd!

 

You misunderstand me. Of course you have a right to not like it and to air your grievances - that's a given. I was referring to the fact that we can't influence the writers... and it's they (and the producers) who ultimately decide wether to go one way or the other with stories/plot point etc. Undoubtedly they'll be more of this in Rebels and the ST... as has already been seen with the Inquisitor. "What? I was led to believe only Vader and Sidious had red lightsabres during that timeframe". It will continue... and it will continue to be popular (in no small measure due to the fact that Star Wars has a history of spinning/flipping things and playing with our assumptions).

 

In The Deserter how does Cut know about the commando droids if he left the army shortly after the first battle of Geonosis

 

And why in Clone Cadets do they have commando droids as practice?

 

Dooku shouldn't be on the front lines and if he is, he should be nowhere near Anakin. Have Dooku be doing stuff behind the scenes to aid the Sith cause and coming up with agents who will fight Anakin to test him and what not. Have other Jedi find Dooku and lose, which would cause Anakin to get impatient and want to take him down all the more because he feels he can unlike the Jedi who failed. Yeah it might not look like a contradiction to some people but it still feels like it violates the spirit of affairs.

 

"A presence I have not felt since... since yesterday!!!"

 

Apparently commando droids were in use when that happened (Cut left the army). In rookies Rex says that they are "new" but not how new exactly. There is slight oddity rather than a plothole IMO. Same with them being in the clone cadets- they are not that new- maybe Rex just didn't met them during his first campaigns and that's why he calls them "new"- but he is obviously familiar with them.

B1 Battle droids existed before Rex did and SBD:s may be rather old in AOTC- commando droid and tactical droid are the "new" hardware in any case.

Cut has lived a year or so on Saleucami, those kids are not his- he has adopted them. Maybe commando droids were new when they attacked his ship and Rex didn't see them until some time prior Rookies when they were more commonly in use.

 

Regarding Dooku and Anakin I'm being perhaps a bit too positive but based on the s6 trailer:

Spoiler

Anakin and Obi Wan duel Dooku, perhaps to try and make the ROTS line work, even though it's unlikely Anakin's powers would double, Anakin could charge in and lose based on how well he had been doing, and Dooku looking forward to it as he was robbed of a victory in s6? Of course being CW it's more likely Dooku will be destroyed and flee, further ruining ROTS, but never know.

 

Maybe Dooku will say that Anakin has only 3/5ths of the powers required to beat him.

 

The lines are certainly not a contradiction. Original intent means nothing. If you show someone TPM, then ATOC, then TCW, then ROTS would they find anything to be inconsistent at all? I don't think they would.