"The dark side clouds everything"

I just finished watching AOTC again and was thinking about how the dark side of the force is clouding everything. Now I'm wondering something....What is causing this? Is it because of all the unrest, corruption and selfishness going on in the galaxy and the republic at this point? Or, is it just that the force shifts in favor of each side every thousand years? Or, is Sidious causing it to be overwhelming the light? Or is it because the Jedi are corrupt, blinded, arrogant and losing their touch? Or has it got to do with Anakin, the chosen one?


What do you guys think?

 

The Dark Side spreads like a cloud. And then it clouds. And that clouding affects everything. Everything in the universe. So the Jedi can no longer use their psychic/telepathic powers. So in AOTC for example, when Anakin slaughters the Tuskens, Yoda cannot sense this. When Qui Gon tries to yell at Anakin from beyond the grave, Yoda is unaware of this too. He does not even realize that Young Skywalker is pain. Great pain. Because it covers everything.

And thus you are now clouded.

 

The official line I believe is that the Sith(Palpatine specifically) are causing the shroud of the Dark Side, though I think there would be some validity in assuming the corruption of the Republic plays a role in it given how life creates the Force and makes it grow, that also would still be at it's root created by the Sith as they're working to further said corruption.

 

Interesting question. I don't have any answers but you definitely have me wondering.

It makes me think back to ESB when Luke asks Yoda, "is the dark side stronger?", and Yoda says no.

But with "the dark side clouds everything"....and Mace stating that their powers are diminished...and everything else that happens in the PT...it does indeed seem like the dark side was stronger back then, as you are noting...

And I don't think there was any explanation given as to why that was exactly. Maybe it was a combination of everything you mentioned. Or maybe its just a simple thing like the momentum swinging back and forth in a game between two evenly matched teams (one team takes the lead, later on the other team takes the lead, etc etc).

But it definitely seemed stronger. Especially considering that there were only two Sith lords screwing up hundreds of Jedis perceptions...

 

I like "the dark side clouds everything" analogy. It is very visual, painting an image of clouds shielding or diffusing the light from the sun -- only the 'light' is Jedi the ability to use the force.. So while the force still 'illuminates' our Jedi heroes, their vision becomes increasingly 'hazy.'

Just my thought, but the clouding orchestrated by the Sith definitely seemed to have allowed darker emotional and societal elements to percolate up to the surface within the Republic. The Jedi may not have been as affected as the others (Trade Federation, Senators, etc.), but they were affected none-the-less!

The 'clouding' by the Dark Side was so gradual that it proved sheer genius -- over decades, even centuries. The Sith, who historically proved impulsive, demanding and using brute force, were not at all what the Jedi thought they 'once' were. They were instead patient, deliberate, influential and above all pervasive and 'insidious.'

Gives one a newfound appreciation for Palpatine's Sith name -- oh so VERY appropriate!

 

A line cut from the AOTC script by Yoda was that "only those that have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future".

Don't know it that aids the discussion in any way?

 

Indeed. The literal clouding of Coruscant, which grows exponentially with each film, as well as the fog that enshrouds the planet at the start of AOTC, can be seen in reinforcement of this. Anakin also looks up at a clouded sun on Mustafar, while Obi Wan is later framed just to the side of it. There are also many references to vision and blindness in AOTC. At the start, Captain Typho declares, "I guess I was wrong. There really was no danger at all," only for the decoy ship to be blown to smithereens; Captain Typho wears an eye-patch. Later, Yoda declares that "blind" are the Jedi, "if the creation of this Clone Army we could not see". Dooku also tells Obi Wan that the Dark Side of the Force has clouded the Jedi's vision. This is maybe less significant, and perhaps not intended at all, but in the Battle of Coruscant, Obi Wan struggles to pilot his ship when his cockpit fogs up, relying on Anakin to help bail him out, while a little later, when Anakin jumps out of and returns to the elevator, Obi Wan is surprised -- "Oh, it's you" -- suggesting that the Dark Side is clouding his vision, just as Dooku said in the preceding film.

Exactly.

"I say patience."
"Patience?"
"Yes, Artoo will be along and he'll release the ray shields."

Patience is key. Technically, Qui Gon is killed partially through Obi Wan's actions; when he unleashes a little anger at Maul, he is knocked off the ledge and almost falls into the abyss, allowing Maul to put distance between him and his master, ultimately leading to the two Jedi being separate at the electric gates, which essentially seals Qui Gon's fate. Patience seems to always be the answer.

I also agree that the Sith stir up existing problems. "Percolate" is a good word. This greed and corruption filters through slowly, imperceptibly at first, gathering in potency until it is overt and undeniable (i.e. the Empire). Palpatine / Sidious exists because the Dark Side is already rising in society; in a mathematical sense, he is a function of the Dark Side. He starts out small and insignificant, like the growth of the Dark Side itself, barely noticeable as one senator amongst thousands, but he slowly and certainly manipulates events until his presence and influence are literally ... palpable (hence "PALPatine").*

*It should be noted that there are other layers to "Palpatine". Palatine was one of the "seven hills" of Rome, where emperors resided. It is likely that Lucas was thinking of this, and maybe Senator Palatine from "Taxi Driver", when he concocted the name ("Taxi Driver" was released the same year that the name first appeared at the front of the official "Star Wars" movie novelisation). But perhaps also by design, or maybe by chance, "palpare" is also a Latin verb for "flatter, soften", which Palpatine does over and over with characters in the PT.

 

Wow. Is this definitely true? Is there a source somewhere? Just curious

 

Its in the script and novel. Its a discussion between Mace and Yoda.

 

Thanks!

 

Chron, you hav been on fire lately! Nice post. I made mention in the "Sidious greatest Triumph" thread that credit belongs more to the Sith who came before him than it does to Sidious directly. Your post was dead on with what I was trying to say....

 

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil?everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars."

--George Lucas, ?The Mythology of Star Wars,? Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001

"It's not that they can't see the Dark Side coming, it's just that the Dark Side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the Dark Side grows."

--George Lucas, AOTC commentary


"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

So what happens is the dark side grows stronger. There is too much corruption, greed and destruction going on. The lines between good and evil are blurred. The Clone Army will serve as a force of destruction, but it's created in the name of good. The Jedi and the Republic claim to be fighting on the side of right, but they're working for an evil man. The Separatists are fighting what they believe to be right, but they're serving evil. As Palpatine makes his way up the ladder, he brings the Force out of balance. The dark side grows stronger because he is spreading his infection, a cancer that spreads throughout the harmonous body that is the GFFA. There's too much evil and the Jedi are having difficulting sensing the evil, because it hides behind the facade of good. The Jedi cannot sense the Sith because not only are they hiding their presense, but they're spreading their deceit. The Force is tainted.

 

SithStarSlayer - You said FIRE!

Seriously - - Thanks. I'll have to check out the 'Sids' greatest triumph' thread.

Sinister, how long does this tainting process take? When did it begin? I would think that if the change had merely been in Palpatine's lifetime, a few Jedi would have noticed that the 'forcecast' was all of a sudden 'clouded.'

Do you not believe the process was gradual, over perhaps several decades or even centuries? Could this perhaps be why Yoda is so hard on himself, as he was a young Jedi soon after the Sith purge and feels responsible for not noticing the 'big creep' of the Dark Side (having known the days of light) over those many years?

EDIT: Sinister - just went over to the "Sidious' triumph' thread and saw you post over there (cut-n-pasted below) - it answers most of my questions:

 

More like invisible. The greed and corruption has become so strong that people now just accept it as a way of life and don't even have recognizable understaing of the words "greed" and "corruption."

 

It should be noted that the Sith were MINDFUL of what the Jedi could sense.

Six months prior to to the invasion of Naboo, Sidious dispatched Darth Maul to the Outer Rim to deal with a disturbance in the Force. Sidious told Maul that the phenomenon threatened to wake the Jedi from their complacency and inability to sense the return of the Sith.

Maul found the disturbance to be a Drovian named Silus who blatantly used the dark side of the Force while competing in the dueling ring. After confronting Silus, Maul contacted his Master on a secure holo-channel. As a test; and much to Maul's amazement and confusion, the Drovian was offered the opportunity to displace Darth Maul if he could kill him. Empowered by his fear, Maul cut off his head. The point isn't about what Maul learned, but what Sidious sent him to remove... AND why he sent him.

***

Sidious; as Palpatine, also tested Yoda in his office when he asked:
"Do you really think it will come to war?"

***

Yoda confirmed that the Sith has grown in power, while Jedi had not when he said:
"Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness..."

 

That's valid.

The lone pod that Bail and Padme occupy could be said, at that point in time, to represent the only resistance to Palpatine's schemes. Everyone else is duped. Interestingly, and this was one of the first observations I ever read on this board and responded to (now deleted), Yoda flings a single pod back at Palpatine; that pod could be imagined as the pod that Bail and Padme sat in, and on that basis, represents the same thing. It's the little spark of enlightenment that will grow.

 

It is discussions such as this that cause me to lament Lucas refusing to make each movie 2.5 - 3 hours, long like LOTR. So many scenes were filmed but not included, foremost among them the discussion between the dissenting Senators about how to resist Palpatine's power grab.

Lucas tells us that those scenes detracted from the plot line of Anakin's fall, but they provide an interesting and pertinent back story to the fall of the Republic, which goes hand in hand with Anakin's decline. Sadly, Lucas most likely cut those scenes to maximize individual theater seat totals and pump up the box office take -- which is good for Lucasfilm, I guess.

 

I think the dark side clouds things at all times to a cerain extent, because the dark side feelings are always there and challenging the path of the light. They can't be eradicated altogether, but merely balanced and kept under control.

In the PT, the dark side was so much in the ascendant, that it clouded things more than usual. I think there were a number of factors contributing to this.

1. The heightened activities of the Sith, especially Sidious.
2. The decay of the Republic generally.
3. The attitude of he jedi. They perpetuated the problem by refusing to front up to it properly. "Beware the dark side" will not do the job of dealing with the dark side when it is being so forcefully promoted.

 

Hmmmm...Now what I'm gathering from all these wonderful and insightful replies is that it is a little of everything I said in my first post.

But does anyone think that maybe its got to do with Anakin too? Since he is the chosen one and ha the most midiclorians of anyone in the galaxy, maybe his state of mind can affect the force?

I don't know, just a thought. I'm really interested by what everyone is saying here. I'm glad I brought this up. Thanks for all the replies.

 

Hmmm, well Anakin did have the highest midi count of any Jedi. And the boy was confused and befuddled a lot of the time. Maybe his confusion was infectious to the Jedi ?

 

Thats what I was thinking. Maybe thats why Yoda is so connected with Anakin's turmoil throughout the film (AOTC.)

Also, the way the narrative of the film is edited, it seems like the personal conflict and turmoil Anakin is facing is also being mirrored by the events happening in the galaxy.

Anakin loses his mother and commits revenge

While

Obi Wan discovers a plot by the Separatists to attack the Republic.

But the question is.....Could it be the other way around? Does Anakin's turmoil come from the force being out of balance?

 

But the question is.....Could it be the other way around? Does Anakin's turmoil come from the force being out of balance?

Nah, Anakin just had the normal pitfalls of life and handled them badly IMO.

I like the infection theory better. It would also explain why Obi-Wan and Yoda were clear thinking in the OT.

 

Nah, his fall was due to his own inner turmoil. It didn't cause the Force to go out of balance or the dark side to grow stronger. But when he refuses to fulfill his destiny, that is when the Force is truly and completely out of balance. The one hope for the galaxy is lost now to the dark side. Palpatine is now given the opportunity to execute Order 66 and declare the birth of the first Galactic Empire. In the end though, we see that there is always hope and that comes with the birth of the last of the Jedi. Who will in time become the first of the new. This is why Lucas takes those final moments of ROTS and make parallels to ANH. Showing the droids, the funeral for Padme, Vader, Leia with Bail and Obi-wan dropping Luke off at the Lars. In fact, the last scene is an homage to the binary sunset in ANH. Complete with a reprise of Luke's theme and then the Force theme as we go to the end credits. Seeing Owen and Beru with Luke watching the sunset, when in the next film, we see the elder Luke watch the sunset. With very much the same cue playing.

 

Yoda was incorrect. One did not have to join the darkside to view what was otherwise clouded. Instead, one only had to stop being in service of the darkside to know its direction and purpose.

The Jedi Order, for all intents and purposes, served the darkside of force. Not intentionally (of course) but through the nature of their unhealthy attachment to a corrupt Republic that was under the control and manipulation of the Sith.

For the Jedi Order to defeat this menace (thereby saving themselves and the intent of democracy that they wished to serve), they would have had to completely sever their relationship with the Senate. And that is something that they were completely unwilling to do as their level of attachment made such an act unthinkable.

The Jedi Order had the means to save themselves just as Anakin had the means to save himself. Both failed in the brightest portion of their given opportunities while only to both succeed in their darkest most remote hour.

 

Actually, the Jedi still cannot see the future clearly in TESB. Yoda tells Luke that it is difficult to see the fate of his friends. So the Senate thing doesn't matter, they still cannot see the future that well. What Yoda could not see was that the Jedi were going to fall, because he did not allow change to occur. That happens during his fight with Palpatine.