The Darth Vader contrasted against Anakin Skywalker

Anakin Skywalker was established by the Prequels, Prequel Novels, Republic comics, and Clone Wars cartoons as the Jedi with the most potential in the Force that has ever appeared. In typical George Lucas fashion, the whole Chosen One thing actually doesn't give him that much in the way of an edge against more skilled opponents. He's defeated by Count Dooku and later Obi Wan Kenobi.

In the later case, Obi Wan Kenobi is established by Jedi Apprentice as being a fairly average apprentice that was even briefly sent to the Agricultural Corps. It's only through skill, grit, and determination that he becomes one of the greatest of the Old Jedi Order.

Nevertheless, let's not sell Anakin Skywalker short. Ventress is considered one of the most terrifying enemies of the Jedi Order with something like seventeen Jedi Knights under her belt by Dark Rendevouz. Anakin Skywalker decisely defeats her in their first confrontation and later swats her like a kriffin' bug in their second battle. He also single-handidly defeats Count Dooku. We also know that he kills the Jedi Knight's Weaponsmaster.

Let's put aside that he clearly used the Dark Side in all four of the above victories. That's immaterial to this discussion. Pretty much, it's clear that Anakin Skywalker is probably just below Obi Wan Kenobi in terms of fighting ability (I'd actually argue that Anakin is a better fighter and possibly stronger but Obi Wan is just smarter). I'd argue that, at his stated time of ROTS where he's "Twice as Powerful as before" Anakin is probably the 3rd or 4th most powerful Jedi in the Order.

Then he goes burning poof-like.

It's established by George Lucas that Anakin Skywalker had twice the potential of Darth Sidious. However, it's noted that George Lucas never said that he had "twice the power" as Sidious. Anakin Skywalker can kill Darth Sidious in the non-canonical ending of Revenge of the Sith: The Video Game but that victory, in addition to being a game mechanic, is also the same sort of victory that Obi Wan gets over Darth Maul (or Obi Wan over Anakin for that matter). It's something of surprise and overconfidence.

Now let's flash forward twenty to twenty-three years laters.

Darth Vader is the apprentice of the most powerful Sith whom has ever lived. In Death Star, Vader calls Palpatine the most powerful Sith ever and the most powerful Sith in a 1,000 years with the other one obviously being a reference to Darth Bane. George Lucas has gaged the rough power of Emperor Palpatine vs. Vader with the statement that the Apprentice probably has about 80% of his master's power.

Darth Vader hasn't just been sitting on his ass these past two decades, feeling sorry for himself. That's just his hobby. It's fairly clear from the Dark Times comics, onwards, that Darth Vader has been studying under the Dark Lord of the Sith and increasing his vast Dark Side powers. He's acquired at least one Jedi Holocron in this time and spends a good portion of his time training along with meditating on his skills.

Darth Vader's drastically reduced combat skills are established as the result of his suit being unable to keep up with his former Jedi abilities. The Force can't be channeled through them and it's also noted on the comic book page that the Dark Lord isn't exactly immobile either (Extinction, Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire, and Ressurection both show Vader is a good deal more active than he seems). This doesn't necessarilly decrease his FORCE powers either.

(Plus, it's clear that Darth Vader is a good deal smarter than he was as a 22 year old. In retrospect, Anakin as an idiot at 23 is still a good deal smarter than Jacen Solo the Boy Wonder is at 33)

So, in your opinion, who is the greater Sith?

 

Is this about Darth Vader vs Darth Caedus or Darth Vader vs Anakin Skywalker?

 

It's a simple Power/Knowledge/Skill issue.

Anakin Skywalker vs. Darth Vader.

However, you're welcome to make comparisons between Caedus and either of them if you want.

 

In that case allow me to argue, that Darth Vader's combat-skills aren't reduced. Quite the opposite, if you ask me.

He got rid of all that horrible, fancy, jumping-around the members of the old Jedi-Order seemed to prefer.

His defeat by Obi-Wan on Mustafar was due to over-confidence (and lets not forget he was still in the transitional phase from Jedi to Sith-Lord) and Obi-Wan got lucky. Notice how Kenobi constantly retreats since Anakin is the better fighter, but at the same time lures his former Padawan on more and more dangerous ground. Considering his attitude to sacrifice himself if necessary it is very possible that Obi-Wan tried to bring himself and Anakin in a position, where they both would be killed. That he got in a position, that allowed him to actually achive a victory over his far more powerful opponent was an added bonus.

DarkLord makes it clear, that Vader's limitations are largely of a psychological nature and that Palpatine would have to help Vader to overcome them even at the cost at his own demise. This was of course before Palpatine figured out the immortality-thing, because AFTER he had to make sure that Vader would stay subservient to him until he could replace him with a more powerful, but also more mallable apprentice.

 

Power

Anakin had tons of potential, both the Jedi and Sids sensed it and worked to make him reach that potential for their side.

Vader was Anakin reaching that potential within the limitations of his injuries.

Caedus doesn't have those limitations and has shown a few feats of power that is beyond what we've seen his grandpa do (flow-walking), still I'd think they may be equal. With the absence of Vader's flamboyant force powers as personal or circumstancial-based choice.


Knowledge

Anakin was a coward and because he knew he was a coward he overcompensated by being brash and a braggart. Other than how to swing around a lightsaber he knew nothing about being a Jedi. Sure he might've known a few things to give a few trite answers to Obi-wan's or Yoda's questions when being tested, but he KNEW nothing about what being a Jedi was. What it meant.

Vader was Anakin with Knowledge but not wisdom. He learned a few tricks from Sids with the DSide, but never got wise until the last 20 minutes of Jedi.

Caedus I think may have a slight edge on his gramps here. What with his 5 year sojourn and his force-oneness experience fighting Onimi in TUF.

Sorry Sith automatically means stupid to me-IMO. So with this category I tried to keep my rantings to a minimum.


Skill

Anakin liked showing off and gloating how good he was.

Vader didn't need to show off but still liked to gloat about how much power he gained from the DSide.

Caedus tries to show off and gloats about it, but not on the level Anakin did. I think they may be equal here.

 

There's one word in your original post that says it all Charles: smarter.

OT Vader is so much smarter than PT Ani.

I mean, Jake Lloyd just doesn't look that bright. But the Hayden Anakin, man, he's dumb as a mother. First film he's in, he just laughs through it all sheepishly and messes up on his first mission by breaking the Jedi code; second one, he makes some real, real dumb decisions and falls in with some very wrong people.

If I think about, I'm not sure I buy him being the same guy.

 

Comparing myself 10 years ago, I'm ridiculously smarter.

;-)

I can only imagine the effect is the same with Vader after the learning experience of flaming skin.

 

I don't even think it's a matter of smarter. I think PT Anakin/Vader was smart enough.....he just failed to utilize his intelligence....all too often falling victim to his emotions and acting without considering the ramifications.

What Suited Vader became that Anakin/Non Suited Vader lacked was cunning. He began setting traps instead of rushing headlong into them. I'll take an underpowered Sith Lord that leverages everything he can to his advantage to one that believes power is the only advantage that he needs.

Caedus is more cunning than PT Vader but he has a much more glaring weakness. He's kriffing insane. He probably could have leveraged say....his mother's cooperation (No matter what she's a diplomatic asset) if he simply had not decided he had to shoot up the Falcon. He probably could have held out longer on making enemies of the Jedi Order by not acting like a pompous jerk after he killed Mara. He could have retained the services of Tenel Ka simply by not torching Kashyyk. These actions gained him little and have cost him a lot. Palpatine got where he was by smiling and shaking hands with his enemies until he was certain that he held all the cards. Caedus made enemies out of those that may have remained cautious and disapproving of him before he held all the cards. By having the war with the Jedi begin well before the situation with the Confedation is even close to rectified, he put himself in a situation where he is openly fighting a two fronted war.

 

Remember, the best Fighter on Earth would lose to that because in Star Wars that's a lot more effective than anything on Earth.

It's like complaining that Gun-Fu in Equilibium isn't worthwhile.

Yeah, well there's plenty of educated and cunning men who are just totally amoral.

I am curious as to how we got onto the Caedus vs. Vader topic but to give my answer to my own question. I definitely think that Darth Vader is more powerful than Anakin Skywalker.

 

In a nutshell. Best paragraph on Darth INSIPIdious yet.

I have have more empathy for Anakin. He really didn't have many choices, in his mind. He always had a slave mentality. Be a Jedi slave or a Sith slave, which is more fun/profitable? He never thought of simply walking away. A gilded cage for our little hothead. He did have the most powerful force user ever manipulating his 9 year old brain for more than a decade. Palpatine's greatest strength is finding and exploiting others weaknesses. In fact, throwing them back in their faces. Vader lasted as long as he did, because he didn't make excuses, he was honest. You can't twist honesty. Anakin was dishonest, but Vader doesn't lie. It's funny that being a mighty Sith Lord made him more clean and pure than being a Jedi ever did.

Muddled is what Cadeus is, the opposite of what a Sith should be: Self aware, clear minded, calculating, PATIENT. Sidious did not jump the gun, he would've torn Jacen to shreds, if he'd known him, schooled him in his incompetence. He didn't overthrow the government at all, it was handed to him thanks to his own brilliance and finesse. He used flow walking (well he did, he was profoundly gifted at "seeing the future" and manipulating people, I think he stumbled upon flow walking but never said anything) to his advantage, not to indulge an airhead. Using your greatest tool on fool is another lame thing Jacen has done, that no Sith would ever do, tip your hand before the game is over.

Vader learned infinite patience form his own failures and disabilities. He was keenly aware of his shortcomings, and not at all deluded about them.

Jacen might tell himself he loves pain, but he really hasn't had to live with any. Pain is never getting better, not knowing you can use the force to make it go away in 10 minutes.

 

Give the best fighters or even average fighters on earth the ability to use the Force and they will shred the Jedi to pieces.

 

Jumping around = victory? Not necessarily.

It'd depend on the skill of the combatents, for example, in Street Fighter II you can do dragon punches, spinning kicks and fireballs but each of these has a weakness that can be used to counter it, if you know how. Add in someone who khows how to do, but not use, the moves and that person will likely lose. A skilled fighter, who has 360-degree awareness, would be able to match a cocky force-user who relies upon excessively. A skilled fighter versus a skilled force-user would be an entirely different contest.

Or that's how it would have been pre-PT. Now it seems standard operating procedure for force-user of any kind in a fight is: 1) grab opponent, 2) TK smash, 3) Win. Short of a having a ysalamiri in your pocket, you're stuffed which I don't really care for. I like the notion that the Force enhances skill but doesn't make someone unbeateable.

 

Your missing my point and deliberately so I'm sure.