ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

That’s just JJ in general.

TFA was also a macguffin hunt with map to Luke, BB-8 etc

 

My brain is well and truly fried from a nutso week at work, so great time to post, right?

I absolutely grant that there is a negative side to the Internet age. No kidding, right? But I wanted to say that at the start lest anyone thinks I am being a Pollyanna . The internet appears to concentrate, to amplify (maybe), encourage (maybe), negativity in fandom.

But... I have to point to the Mandalorian. For the most part, the impossible to please SW fans were pretty pleased. Some were extremely pleased. I also get the sense that some very casual SW fans, and even some "just SW aware" folks, suddenly are taking an interest in Mandalorians and "baby Yodas" and the like. I'm pretty sure a LOT of Mando merch could have been sold this past Christmas.

By way of saying... I don't think it was an impossible task to craft a generally accepted sequel trilogy. Of course, execution is crucial, not just broad story points, but... IMHO....

.... include Jedis, lightsabers, and the Force, but...

.... have nonForce users play a key role throughout...

.... Don't undo the ending of the 1st six movies; have a new and different threat arise. Retain the significance of the first six movies, and the accomplishments therein.

... Sprinkle in the classic characters, and have them pass the torch in ways that honors them and respects them, giving them a nice curtain call. It should be fun, and thrilling, to see them again, not depressing (saying goodbye may be bittersweet, but that's not the same).

...Have a vision before the first film. Know what you are doing and where you are going.

I'd argue if you "just" did that, you'd have been on pretty solid ground.

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_shrine

This shrine is featured in the 'Tarkin' novel (canon). Also, the novel says at one point: 'the Emperor’s current residence had once been the headquarters for the Jedi'

 

So now disney is going to use the outline Lucas left for *future* star wars, swapping characters and taking credit for his work. Wow.

 

What's this?

 

Where did you get this nonsense from?

 

Well the chances of Lucas ending things on Coruscant are high or it would have likely played a role.

...and I swear there is something said long ago about things ending on a space station/city thing a LONG time ago. My memory is hazy but something about Leia being a factor in this scenario. I think it was originally even part of Return of The Jedi.

It's also a hunch. No doubt that Lucas had a fleshed out story with key points so itd save disney the trouble. Now that Hamill andHarrison are done, and Carrie's unfortunate passing, I just think it's likely his outlines will be used, either with all new characters or even applying rey and fin to it.

 

Early drafts of Return of the Jedi were set over Coruscant (then called Had Abbadon) instead of Endor. That long walk on Exegol and going down to the Emperor is also from that draft of Jedi. So is the Sith Thrown room (but it was surrounded by lava instead of blue)

 

I don't know. The throne room *scene* I'm not so sure. All I know for a fact is that Johnson went to Ralph McQuarries old concepts for inspiration.

 

There are some cool concepts in 'Duel of the Fates', but ultimately I'm happy with Rise of Skywalker.

The decision to retread familiar ground was already made with The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi chose not to take the story in a new direction, but to use the similarity of the plot / conflict to serve as a meta commentary on the themes of the seven films by which it was preceded. Yes, there were unexpected things in The Last Jedi, but they did not take the overall narrative in a new direction. All the surprises come through subversion of expectation. In order to do so, expectations are first set by creating a conflict, scenario, and individual scenes which are all highly reminiscent of others from the original trilogy (Empire and RotJ).

The point is, they had a chance to go in a 'bold new direction' with VII and again VIII; So I feel like the praise for Duel of the Fates being 'different' is a bit confusing. The chance for difference has already passed. My point here being that the conflict and characters have already been established as a retread of those in the original trilogy. Kylo Ren being 'redeemed' in the third film is indeed a retread of Vader in the original trilogy. But what's the alternative at this point?

I think Kylo Ren dying without redemption is the wrong call. Yes, it's 'different' for the original trilogy, but it's also worse. The story of the original six films is the fall of Anakin Skywalker and the redemption of Darth Vader. The sequel trilogy opens with Darth Vader's grandson turned evil, following in the same footsteps as the now redeemed Sith Lord. Kylo is also the last of the Skywalker bloodline. If he dies without redemption in IX, the trilogy becomes a retread of the original IV - VI with a worse ending. Instead of the villain turning good at the end, he dies irredeemably evil. I think Han, Leia, and Luke giving their lives for the salvation of their child / nephew's soul is a meaningful story. By creating such a similar conflict in such close proximity to the end of Return of the Jedi, the material victories of the OT heroes were already stripped away. Luke's redemption of Vader wasn't and Vader's defeating the Emperor wasn't (yet). But where the sequel trilogy went a step further was not only to undo their victory by reverting the state of the galaxy, but also reverted character growth for Han and Luke by bringing them both to rock bottom because of Ben's fall. If Ben dies evil, Han's tragic death becomes entirely meaningless. He chose to confront Kylo and if that decision ultimately has no impact on his son, it will have been entirely unnecessary and ultimately meaningless. Man, what a sad ending to Han's life that would be. Han's death is tragic, but because of Ben's redemption, ultimately has purpose and meaning.

Kylo being the last Skywalker means that for him to die evil would make the failure of the Skywalker family complete. Because the sequel trilogy is basically a retread of the original trilogy, giving us a worse ending for Kylo Ren than for Darth Vader would ultimately serve to nullify the core theme of the original trilogy in a way. The last thing we're left with is, "nope, some people are just too evil to save," which is the antithesis of Return of the Jedi, where victory ultimately comes from Luke refusing to fight his father. He believes in the good in Vader, but also refuses to strike him down, no matter the cost to himself. Luke knows he can't fight the Emperor. He casts his lightsaber aside and says, "I'm a jedi like my father before me." Luke chooses the right path even though he knows it means almost certain death for himself, possibly for his friends. Sidious promised Anakin the power to save Padme, and out of fear, Anakin accepted - turned to the Dark Side and became Darth Vader. It wasn't selfless love; it was selfish, possessive. Anakin betrayed everything Padme believed in and fought for to 'save her life', because he was afraid and did not want o be without her. Just imagine Vader finally admitting to Padme, "I did it for me," like Walter White in Felina. Luke chose the opposite; He refused to bow to the Emperor, even though the lives of his friends, his sister, his father, were all in jeopardy should he refuse. The idea here is that the individual can only control themselves, their own decisions; they have no power to control others. The hero's journey is an inward path of self-confrontation; Luke saw the evil in himself represented in the Dark Side cave on Dagobah. It was his own face behind Vader's mask; Vader is his own father, his own blood, and he succumbed to the Dark Side. In the throne room battle, Luke almost considers striking down Vader out of fear, not for himself, but for his sister and his friends. It wasn't some impersonal notion that Vader's a really bad guy. It's the same personal internal conflict which Anakin faced. "Is it worth my soul to protect someone I care about?" Luke answered, no, and threw his lightsaber away, accepting his fate, and even potentially dooming his friends. But that's the point - Luke couldn't control anything in that moment, couldn't save anyone but himself. He chose to remain a Jedi, to not compromise his soul, and in so doing brought about the salvation of both his father and the Galaxy. His refusal to yield his morals and his willingness to suffer and potentially die for the sake of others, even those who did not necessarily deserve it or engender confidence that such sacrifice would be appreciated (Vader) was what brought about ultimate victory. Following that up directly with a story where Kylo dies evil, sort of invalidates that message as the true ultimate victory comes from Rey striking down and killing the irredeemably evil Kylo Ren, the last Skywalker. So what we're left with is a retread of the Original Trilogy conflict with a worse moral conclusion.

Now, I would argue that while the actual redemption of Kylo Ren was satisfying, it could have been given more attention with longer run time or an additional film. I also feel like Ben should have been given more to do after his redemption and would have preferred that he survive - because it would have been a really interesting story to see a redeemed Ben learn to live with and make amends for his misdeeds, a story we haven't seen yet in Star Wars. So hey, that's different without muddying or inverting the main theme of the original saga.

I'll take Rise of Skywalker, which despite rushed pacing, and an unexplained return of Sidious (just extend the run time and these potentially cease to be issues), preserves he moral theme / message of the original films and I'd argue, the character arcs for Han, Luke, and Leia. It recontextualizes their sacrifices, but makes them still ultimately meaningful. Han and Leia both sacrifice their lives to save their son's soul. Luke 'passes on what he learned, including his failures', to Rey when she (too briefly) considers following in his footsteps on Ach-To. I think JJ always intended Rey to be a Palpatine. This isn't JJ going against Rian Johnson's vision; this is JJ upholding his vision from TFA which and hand-waving away Rian Johnson's decision to (possibly; important to remember that the certainty of what Rey learned in TLJ was always in question, even according to Rian) go in a different direction. The revelation of Rey's heritage also impacts Luke and Leia's arc; Luke tells Rey that they were aware of Rey's parentage (at which point is not clear), yet they entrusted her with the future of the Jedi (Luke) and decided to train her (Leia). They chose her as the heir to their legacy despite the fact that she is the descendant of their greatest adversary. Also, Ben gives his lifeforce to bring Rey back to life. In so doing, he succeeds at Vader's primal failure - he learns to save the one he cares about from certain death, not by embracing the dark side, but by rejecting it and giving his own life in the process. Ben's greatest act here is not defeating Sidious, but in saving Rey. Where Anakin selfishly sought the means to save Padme, Ben's sacrifice is selfless and costs his own life. The kiss wasn't necessary. I would have preferred something more like the look exchanged between Jyn and Cassian as they accepted their fate on Scariff. I don't think it's necessarily a problem that there is an attraction between Ben and Rey given the extremely close bond they share in the Force. However, though he has turned back from the Dark, Ben really hasn't been given a chance to process and come to terms with his actions yet. So it feels a bit too quick. I feel like, though I would have preferred that he live, the decision for Ben to sacrifice his life to resurrect Rey from the dead also makes thematic sense. Rey Palpatine dies and is reborn Rey Skywalker symbolically, and also in a very real sense. She inherits the lifeforce of Ben, the last living Skywalker. Ben gives his life to her selflessly, so at the very end, Rey taking up the name Skywalker really worked for me.

At the end of the day, my first choice would have been that they use George's scripts to tell the Whills storyline. But given the decision made back in 2014 to tell a 'retro' film made 'for the fans', and the story decisions made in The Last Jedi, I feel like Rise of Skywalker was about what I hoped for; I would have liked more explanation and a bigger role for Sheev, if they decided to bring him back. I would have preferred that Luke have a bigger role. Seeing the Force Ghosts surround Rey in the final battle would have been better. Hux as a traitor is fine, they just didn't do anything interesting with it really. What if they had to drag Hux along with them and he becomes a belligerent 'ally' for a portion of the mission, until dying later on Exagol? The opening sequence on Mustafar should've been longer, included that weird oracle scene which explains the Force Dyad. Ben should have had a bigger role in defeating Palpatine and at the end, and I would have liked that he survive to live with his actions, as mentioned above. I don't think the planet killing guns were really necessary to up the stakes. The size of the 'Final Order' fleet was impressive enough and the return of Palpatine is a grave enough threat on its own. The design could've been cooler. Like they didn't have to just be big guns strapped onto what seem to be classic Imperial Star Destroyers. Pryde's flagship should have had a unique design. Rose should've been given more to do (it seems she, Connix, and Charlie Pace did original have more, but their scenes were cut). I would've liked to see the final battle with Sidious be longer and involving lightsabers. At least before the Kamehameha standoff, let Ben and Rey duel him together. Rise of Skywalker has lots of little things I'd like to see changed, but no glaring thematic flaws. I like the overall narrative, even if some things aren't explained well enough or given enough time to develop. Those are more technical / storytelling issues as opposed to what I perceive to be serious narrative and thematic issues with the 'Duel of the Fates' script / concept.

Also, and this is perhaps secondary, but one of the things I liked about Rise of Skywalker was that the core cast were at least together for most of the film. Prior to TROS, Finn was really the nexus of their friend group. (End of TLJ, "Hi Poe, I'm Rey"; "I know"). It seems like Duel of the Fates would have split up the cast again, sending Rey on a mission with Poe while Finn and Rose are once again paired off. I agree it's a better story for Rose.

At the end of the day, I'd much rather have an extended cut of Rise of Skywalker than Duel of the Fates. There are some cool concepts in the Duel of the Fates script / artwork. I'd like to see them re-purposed for another story in the future. Ultimately, it doesn't seem right for Episode IX to me though. It honestly feels like it would be a less satisfying conclusion to the 'Skywalker saga.' I really want to see Coruscant again. Thank The Force that JJ didn't blow it up with Starkiller Base in TFA. Hosnian Prime died so that Coruscant can live and I will be eternally grateful.

 

The decision to pass on George's ideas was made early in the development of VII, which resulted in The Force Awakens. While I ultimately enjoy that film, I still would have preferred Lucas' ideas. These leaks are for Trevorrow's version of IX, written after TFA and TLJ. I don't think that he drew from Lucas's treatments in any way. Lucas hasn't spoken in depth, but offered insight in an interview with James Cameron. George's story would have involved the Whills and probably would have been weirder and more original than anything even in this alternative to The Rise of Skywalker.

George originally intended for Luke's confrontation and redemption of Vader to occur in Episode VI. Leia was not originally supposed to be Luke's twin sister and the Emperor wasn't meant to be defeated. Those decisions were made later. Lucas originally planned VII - IX to be about Luke seeking out the 'other' Skywalker, his (not Leia) twin sister, and together they would confront and defeat the Emperor. Ultimately, he chose to condense that plot into Return of the Jedi for both narrative and personal reasons. Now, in interviews around the time of the prequel trilogy, George said he never had any ideas beyond the defeat of the Emperor and that the story was centered on the fall / redemption of Anakin / Vader. However, the earliest point in the development of Star wars, like 193 - 75, Lucas talked about as many as 15 parts of the story. Han was also a giant lizard (Lasat?), so plans obviously changed a lot. However, even if we go with the idea that the original VII - IX were nullified by changes in the development of Return of the Jedi, there's still indication, even early on that George had a story beyond what was told in the original trilogy.

 

The Sith Throne Room in TROS is from early ROTJ drafts. So is Rey fighting Palpatine with the help of Jedi spirits.

 

This is what I sort of always suspected. TFA set up Kylo being a Vader rehash from the get go. I do wonder if JJ wanted Rey to be related to Snoke but Rian killing him put a hole in that, so he went to Palpatine.

I think JJ's biggest issue is he copies the OT too much. Even Rey being born of the dark side is a direct copy of Luke's story with Vader.

But nice to have this semi confirmed that this was purely JJ's idea and LFL and KK didn't seem to have much involvement. That I think is one of the biggest issues with the ST -- no overall planning with everyone involved. Each director could come and do whatever with zero planning.

 

I've read so much over the years I'd have to look that stuff over.

Thank goodness for what was decided on. There was something about Luke taking over as well, but like I said it's been a long time since I've read old star wars scripts and no longer have access to them.

 

@jedijax glad you agree with me! A more “direct” hybrid of Dark Empire with Legacy of the Force would’ve gone a long way, imo. While I personally like Rey as both a Nobody as well as a Palpatine, I think simply establishing her as Jaina Solo right from the get-go would’ve made a lot of people happy.

Same can be said about the trilogy as a whole, actually. On a personal level, I prefer the ST we got (warts and all) to any EU novel, rough draft, etc. However, working closely off of something that has already been “accepted” by core fans already gives a project as big as this one a HUGE head start! The MCU had the foresight to see this.

At the end of the day, tho, I don’t really blame Disney, KK, etc for ignoring the EU as much as they did. Hindsight is 20/20, afterall, and back when these big decisions needed to be made, stuff like the MCU hadn’t fully proved that adapting comic book story arcs that closely could actually work. The first Avengers film was LOOSELY based on the first volume of The Ultimates, but that’s about it. Stuff like Civil War and the Infinity Gauntlet story were still unproven to “work” as movies in late 2012/ early 2013, when the ST development was just getting started. Had work on the ST started today, for instance, I think we’d be looking at a VERY different kind of trilogy in the post-Endgame landscape of Hollywood.

A lot of things just come down to timing. The OT was the right story at the right time. Simple as that, really.

 

My feeling is that they threw away the EU because it was too much to keep up with. They'd have to cross-check SO much back material and felt they would run into all sorts of inconsistencies. Not that it helped much to create a whole new set of realities without cross-checking the actual movies at all.

 

Agree that I would like to see Lucas's ideas. That said, in the aftermath of the PT there was a large section of fans/critics/etc. that were done with George Lucas. They thought he had lost his touch. I am not talking about a niche group of bitter fans...I am talking about a big section of the mainstream. The thought of a deeper exploration of midichlorians, etc. makes many people run away screaming.

THIS. We don't really view it this way anymore, but ROTJ is/was a RUSHED ending to the original saga. It was supposed to put a cap on Darth Vader, but Luke's adventure and the ultimate endgame (The Emperor) was NOT supposed to occur in Episode 6. Ultimately, a lot of the "end" concepts got jammed into ROTJ.

For me, the ST in no way undoes any of the victories of the PT/ST. These 6 movies are about the Rise/Fall of Darth Vader and The Empire. ROTJ still caps this off, but it does not address the deeper legacy of the Sith (introduced in the PT*) in anyway. In many ways, the advent of the PT expanded the galaxy in such a way that the ROTJ actually strains to wrap up the character of Palpatine and the Sith without feeling rushed.

*In retrospect, without Palpatine's return and manipulations of life/etc in TROS, what is the purpose of the Tragedy Darth Plagueis story? I mean, on it's own it's a cool scene, but it's a lot of time/energy dedicated to a thread that goes nowhere other than being a way to trick/seduce Anakin.

 

True, but still demoting the EU to non-canon status, while adapting some more “firm” concepts from it at the same time, doesn’t sound like it would be too hard imo, especially if you just focus in on the absolute most essential EU stories. Then again, I could be wrong.

 

Is that not what is happening? Thrawn is canon now. I feel like the EU is open for creators to pick and use ideas going forward.

 

I don't think this is really the issue. The new movies are barely concerned with the canon they are currently creating themselves. I doubt they'd care about having to stick to older canon from old books. Marvel comic canon is just has twisted, there's a lot to keep up with, but that doesn't stop the movies from using them as source material in a general sense.

I think the real issue is that the creators (KK, JJ, RJ, etc etc) wanted to have creative ownership over the movies they were making. They wanted to be able to say "that was mine", and not "inspired by some old book from the 80/90s that I have to co-credit".

Which is strange since some of the EU concepts have seeped into the movies regardless. It's kind of baffling that they paid $4 BILLION for SW and then threw out all that potential content to mine, and try to insist that there's no source material (Umm..sure lol) I was never into the EU, but....they could have done something with those stories. Marvel teases Thanos and there's instant excitement because the fandom knows who this character is and cannot wait to see how it's used. SW could have done the same. Right now, we sorta have no clue what's next, and even though that can be quite exciting, it's also hard to build up trust and excitement for more mysteries especially now that we've left the Skywalker Homestead.

 

What I meant was that the ST could’ve adapted things from the EU more directly. They already did so in a vague sense, but they coulda been more direct with it, is all I mean. You are right tho that other stuff outside of the ST seems to be doing just that.

 

This was uploaded a week ago. A really good breakdown of where the trilogy went astray in terms of the overall narrative.

 

It never was in doubt; Snoke is neither the main villian in TFA or a main charecter. Kylo is, why else do you think that the movie focuses on him and barely shows Snoke and only references him as a background charecter?

He is the big bad in TLJ, but not TFA.

I'll concived? Yes - and poorly-planned; this I never denied. I don't think the writing his particulerly bad, though (at least not nearly as bad as the PT) and the films were only presented the conculsuion to the Skywalker saga in hindsight with TROS - TFA and TLJ were never presented as being such.

It's also a weapon that we have no reason to think can actually move, which makes it hugly vunerable and really only capable of being used a couple times since it draws its power from it's star.

The Stormtroopers don't look buffer at all; they look sleaker.

In that film we only see them possesing a single ship, and even their fleet in TLJ is'nt that big (and in TROS they're lamenting manpower issues at the start of the film)

There's also the fact that they had to use SK base to wipe out Hosnian and the Republic Fleet before they struck - there not only weaker then the Empire, they're actually weaker then the New Republic.

Irrelevent to the films, perhaps, but not to the canon.

Also, I never claimed such a thing was from the film, hence why I put it in brackets when I first mentioned it. Nor was I, or am I, using it to defend the quality of the film in any way.

Your claiming the FO is more powerful then the Empire, and not only is there nothing in the film to really suggest this, but the actual, canon lore states that this is not the case.

Why would balance lasting for 1000 years be any more belivable then it lasting for twenty-eight years?

The movie has Tarkin telling Vader what to do and Vader reporting to him, and diologue in the film flat-out says Tarkin is the one in control

There's also nothing in the movie to suggest Tarkin built the Death Star or was even involved in its construction an - if anything Vader line ("don't be to proud of this technological terror you've constructed") would imply Motti built it, but even then you'd have to read into it.

What the developers have tried to do with Fallen Order is bridge the traditional platform game with KOTOR gameplay.

Fallen Order's actual gameplay has nothing in common with KOTOR, and a hub were you can pick up/fast-travel to mission areas and talk to other charecters is in no way exclusive to KOTOR (while the lightsaber crafting is a fairly common thing in Star Wars games were one plays as a Jedi and is a very obvius thing for a game to want to do)

Now, do I think they looked at other games while making FO? Yes, absolutly. Do I think they looked a pair of Bioware/Obsidian RPG's from sixteen (!) years ago. No, becuse all the things you think it has in common with those games are surface deep and a dime-a-dozen in video games.

But I digress - this is'nt a thread about Fallen Order, and we're derailing the thread with this discussion so lets just move along from it.

They did. In fact, they've made two of them.

There's probobly an alternate reality out there we're our counterparts on the Dark Council Forums are arguing that the newly-leaked JJ Abrams script for the unmade Rise of Skywalker would have been way better then the Dual of the Fates film we got.

The only person hunting for the map was the villian, though (and the map was'nt actually to Luke either, peaple just misinterpeted what the movie was telling them)

Nah, if anything Lucas would have ended it were JJ did - on Tatooine.

Becuse well all know Lucas loves him some Tatooine.

That, and were would you even set the films if you wanted to use the OT big three in some way? There are'nt many spaces left open in the EU were a big, three movie self-contained story could be set with them at the ages they are.

 

Perhaps as an epilogue, but that's about it. And to be honest as long as Jedi Master Cleet Lars , aka Reys father,was there I'd be fine with it.

 

I couldn’t find anything giving us the timeline of Duel of the Fates.

But I found this:

https://www.google.co.jp/amp/s/www....el-of-the-fates-colin-trevorrow-confirmation/