ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

It's been awhile since I've watched Rebels, so I don't remember who the Spectres are. If they're the fighters involved in the initial attack, that's why they run into a wave of TIE's and are all shot down, so that the attack is considered a failure. I do remember that the Lothal Underground is forced to take the mission upon themselves without official Rebel backing, similar to Jabba the Hutt being killed by high ranking rebels like Luke, Han, Lando and Leia but not technically in a Rebel attack. Now, if you want my personal explanation for every single engagement that the Rebel Alliance won before Scarif it's quite simple: there aren't any. Books or TV shows that will tell you otherwise are lying because they want to sell you a more exciting story, but that never actually happened in the universe that ANH takes place in. I suspect that won't be a very satisfactory explanation for you but these exact type of issues are why I've never put much stock in the outside material in the first place. I will read/watch them if I come across something I might find entertaining, for example I have in fact seen all of Rebels, I just don't consider them as canon as Disney would like me to. Honestly when they made that announcement I was hoping it would mean they would be a lot more careful with making all the stories match up, because I like the idea in theory, but it turns out they weren't even being careful about the movies matching up with each other so here we are.

Luke is not the top dog in the Alliance's chain of command, that much is true, but he is a Commander and he does lead them on the battlefield. As we can see he is no longer Red 5 but Rogue Leader, so he's clearly received a significant promotion since the Battle of Yavin. Again, a lot of English words have wiggle room in their meanings. "First" is not one of them. As for ROTS, the Republic is crumbling. By the end of the film it will no longer exist, and we're talking about something that has stood for at least a thousand years.

Fun fact: I used to just be a lurker, and it worked pretty well because in most threads there was at least one person who represented something pretty close to my point of view. Every now and then though I'd notice topics where the roles would switch, and people I usually agreed with betrayed me by having wrong opinions, while the people I usually found myself disagreeing with were suddenly talking perfect sense. To everybody else it was probably just the same couple of people disagreeing with each other on two different topics, so I finally decided to create an account so that I could tell everyone which opinions are correct on a thread by thread basis. (mine, of course. qu)

Their view that Luke coming back was the key to the war. The Resistance was in a lot better position in TFA and they were still seeking Luke's help, now they have no choice but to do everything without him. Also I think the movie trying to end on a hopeful note doesn't work very well if the characters are only hopeful because they don't know about how bad the situation actually is.

I think there's a better chance that the Resistance wins with Luke and without those guys than there is without Luke and with those guys. (Ignoring the fact that Rey, Poe and Finn have plot armor, so of course they're going to win)

One Jedi Master, or a dozen Not Jedi Masters, most of them not even Force Sensitive. If you're trying to stop a galactic scale invasion I know which one I'd chose. The movie for some reason goes out of it's way to make a mockery out of Leia's connections, and again surely Luke coming back alive to continue the fight is a bigger morale boost than Luke dying as a mere distraction.

Which is bad and all but it turns out destroying the dreadnaught actually saved the entire fleet from instant destruction when the First Order tracked them through hyperspace, so it kind of becomes a weird way to teach him a lesson. In any case though my point is saving Poe isn't as big of a deal for the Resistance as it might have otherwise been at the start of the movie. It turns out he kind of sucks as a leader and they'd be better off with someone else in charge.

I mean I guess if that's your interpretation of that scene that at least makes a little more sense, but it wasn't clearly communicated that way in the movie. Most of the complaints people have with that scene stem from the idea that Finn destroying the cannon was a legitimate possibility, because that's the way most people took it. If they wanted people to know that Finn was about to die for no reason, they could have had Rose explain that when he asks her why she did it.

The audience can figure out later that he's speaking literally about the books, but he's clearly wording it in a way that Luke would not catch on to, purposefully. It's not:
"The sacred Jedi texts!"
"They're fine. Rey took them you big dummy. I just wanted you to realize that burning them wouldn't solve your problems."
it's:
"The sacred Jedi texts!"
"And what about them? If they're so important have you even bothered to read them?"
"Well..."
"I have, and they're nothing special. I mean they're not bad but they're just books. There's more to being a Jedi than that."

 

Yes. Though I think it's worth noting, thinking about that little moment and its placement in the film a little more, that it occurs shortly after Kylo has smashed his helmet, following Snoke's mockery. Indeed, directly following the helmet smash, the film cuts back to Rey telling Luke: "There's no light left in Kylo Ren." And then we see Kylo very much acting like there isn't, until he arrives at the critical moment of obliterating Leia, which we find he is unable to do. So I find the tension placed in the film there very interesting.

You're right that people sensing one another is pretty common. But it sometimes runs the other way. For example, when Anakin cuts his way out of the elevator on the Invisible Hand in ROTS, he disappears for a bit, gets into some trouble, then jumps back in. Obi-Wan knew the sort of stuff Anakin was up to, and Anakin clearly remains in close proximity to his master, and yet: he fails to sense him returning. Indeed, when Anakin drops back inside the car, Obi-Wan draws his saber and reacts with surprise: "Oh, it's you."

Kylo actually doesn't sense Leia dying. What he senses is her final words as his name leaves her lips and echoes through the Force. That is a deliberate act on Leia's part. Obviously, it occurs as Leia is about to lose consciousness and pass over, but it's not her death. It's Rey who senses that a moment later. It's like a reprise of Leia trying to get through to Ben in that moment in TLJ. Leia seems to have the unique ability to access Ben's mind, but it isn't often -- but when she does do it, she makes it count.

So maybe he really did think she'd died in that explosion.

I can't make his redemption work better for you. That's obviously a personal thing. You seem to be saying you might change your mind and warm up to it over time. That's cool. Star Wars has the ability to improve and resonate better over time.

That's why it's often amusing to see people responding rather negatively in the early years of a film's release. It's probably a good thing the Internet wasn't around (except in a basic "usenet" sense) when the Original Trilogy came out. That trilogy was uniquely granted a reprieve, while the prequels arrived in tandem with the widespread adoption of dial-up and early broadband lines, and the sequels were truly born in the cold light of day: into the era of smartphones, smart TVs, smart washing machines, and (going for a quip here -- don't take it too seriously) smarty-pant fans. Expectations and certain ways of seeing/not-seeing Star Wars really built up over the years. As Lucas once said: "It's a complicated cultural icon."

Well, that's why I said Johnson was maybe being dishonest there. He certainly worked with the Story Group, and he has spoken highly of their receptivity and the support he received. His film handles Leia in a fascinating way. She dies early on -- only she doesn't! Or does she? You can see Johnson trying to satisfy his own ideas, perhaps; yet there is undeniably a sense of him preserving Leia and showing her to be possessed of great power. Which aligns very well with the group discussion from May 2014 between LFL higher-ups, where they speak of a strong desire to have Episodes VIII and IX showing the spiritual supremacy of Leia, and making the ST (in effect) her story.

So I wouldn't rule out the idea that Johnson was not given total freedom, but rather was encouraged to adhere to certain ideas they had in mind. Maybe he agreed wholeheartedly with those ideas and didn't feel pushed into anything. But it's too much of a coincidence, in my opinion, that his film just happens to have Leia getting through to Kylo for a second, just happens to have her surviving, just happens to show her expressing great mastery and strength in the Force, just happens to have Luke reconnecting with her at the mid-point of the trilogy, just happens to have that discussion on Crait between the twins, just happens to have the exchange with the dice, and just happens to have her reassuring Rey ("We have everything we need") at the end.

Well, it's not a knock, but you register to me as fairly passionate: long posts with many quotes, and you've managed 1,600 posts in just four months. With the lockdown, now is the perfect time to discuss SW!

Revealed, your opinion is??? Hiring Rian Johnson wasn't a disaster. It was just the jolt this franchise needed. The problem was hiring Abrams and throwing the trilogy down a nostalgia well. Rian had to fish it out of there, without totally ignoring the choices of TFA and the heavy OT-reskin aesthetic, and do something fresh and interesting with those characters he inherited. TLJ is a movie that fans need to be more charitable to. I actually thought it was a bit corny, contrived, and boggy when I first saw it. Threepio in AOTC? "This is such a drag." But then I honed in on the things I liked and began a re-assessment. Now I see it as the "art movie" of the saga. They're all art movies, but this one's the real deal. More art movie than art movie.

Perhaps TLJ introduced problems, but then, on some level, the fans have always been the problem (cf. the reaction to the prequels). You could compare it to TPM, but then, that movie made close on a billion dollars, and Rian's exceeded that (albeit, when you adjust for inflation and increased ticket prices, it made less, but still brought in a decent amount of coin). Doing something edgy and interesting was exactly why Rian was hired. This was the original plan: hire a guy/gal, one with passion and strong sensibilities, and watch them go to town. Disney should have been prepared to take risks from the start, then maybe the fans would have been suitably strapped in for a movie like TLJ. Then again, maybe not. In the words of Lucas at the European TFA premiere: "It's hard to say what fans take away from the films, and sometimes they see the films very differently than you do."

 

I agree with this post. I don't doubt Rian Johnson's ability to make a movie, but I am not sure he made a good Star Wars movie. From a technical standpoint, it is certainly the best made and best looking of the trilogy, but it is bereft of any kind of story or character development, or even characters to root for.

It's cardinal sin, and this is a drum worth banging one more time, is the characterisation and story angle of Luke Skywalker. I think that the handling of this character was criminal. Luke in TLJ is not elderly like Obi-Wan in A New Hope, so it is a fallacy to think that the only role for Hamill would be to play the wise old Jedi Master role. As seen at the end of The Last Jedi, when Luke's apparition appears as a more youthful image to face off against Kylo, there was plenty of mileage in the character.

Some people argue "Well it's no longer the OT characters' trilogy", but to that I say, "Why not?"

I believe that fans were clamouring for Luke Skywalker (I was) to be front and centre in The Last Jedi, and to be a more active protagonist. My biggest fear was that Luke wouldn't actually leave the island, and wouldn't interact with the wider GFFA. I was right, he didn't.

I think that one of the most dissatisfying things about the ST for me is the feeling that the OT cast still had at least one good movie left in them, where they were the central protagonists, before a more gradual handover to the new characters.

Alas, it was not to be.

 

I don’t see why the prior trilogy’s protagonists would be expected to be front-and-center in the subsequent trilogy in a generational saga.

I was in the GA around the time of TFA, but from what I’ve heard from others, the complaints were mostly about it being similar to ANH, all the mysteries, and Luke getting just a fleeting cameo at the end. I’ve never really heard complaints that the OT3 weren’t the stars.

Personally, I’d think that fans would be more concerned with learning what the OT3 did during those years and the fruits of those labors than see three aging characters have adventures while the new generation just tag along.

[Apropos of nothing, but on the subject of age - on the flip side, there are fans who think Luke dying when he did was just fine because he was “old.” Luke was 53. I hope such fans know better by the time they graduate high school.

And those who say that Anakin’s death in RotJ was fine - but not Ben’s in RoS - was fine because Anakin was old (42!) and sick are most likely too young to be posting on the internet at all.]

 

Anakin would have been more like 46 in ROTJ.

 

What I am doing is looking at how well TLJ functions as a film in it's own right and how well it fits with the rest of the film series, the seven prior to that and the one that would follow.

In the case of the former, I look at just what is IN the film, not books, comics, games, TV shows etc and sees how well it works.
With the latter I compare with the other films and see how well it fits with those, it it pays off previous set up and how well it sets up future events.

In both of these regards I think TLJ came up short.
I don't hate the film or think it is awful, I just have way more issues with it than I had with TFA for ex.
TFA worked overall better for me and I enjoyed the film more and thought it was a better film.

As a film in it's own right, TLJ fell short by having too much of an "Idiot plot" going on and as part of a series it ignored some of the set up from TFA and significantly altered some of the other pieces left from TFA or the OT/PT.

As a follow up to TFA, to me, even with TFA being somewhat "open ended", TLJ went in a very different direction that I saw TFA going.
It i sort if like a ship going north-west and then it turns to so go south and then it turns again to go west.
The course is just erratic.
Again the ST, I think, lacked oversight or an overall plan.

It doesn't matter if it is the whole galaxy, half of it, a tenth of it of even 1000 systems. It is still an enormous area of space and loads of planets to conquer.

I feel that we will never see eye to eye here.
You take a total military conquest of the galaxy or a decent chunk of it, being accomplished in weeks and say, "Wow, they must face really heavy resistance if it takes that long."
I look at the same thing and go, "Wow either the attacker outnumbers the defenders by like 1000 to one or the defenders all surrender at the drop of a hat, or possibly both."

The FO doing a total military conquest of the galaxy or a decent chunk of it makes then way MORE powerful than the GE, who could never do such a thing.

That is one of the reasons why TLJ does not work as a follow up to TFA. Because TFA does not set up the FO as being this strong. But TLJ suddenly have them be 100 times more powerful than in the last film.

IF the NR fleet was say 1000 ships and the FO was 800 ships. And say that the NR had 500 of those ships in the central system when it was destroyed. Which is pretty stupid.
Yes now the FO has an advantage but not a huge one and not one that would mean that they would win within weeks.

If the FO fleet was like 50 000 ships and the NR was 60 000 and they had 59 900 of those ships in the capitol system when it was blown up. Yes now the FO has a massive advantage in numbers but for the NR have that many ships in one system is ludicrously stupid.

Since Leia's allies leave her hung out to dry and don't even send an answer to her call for aid, they don't seem to hold in any special regard.

It does matter because the way the film presents it is both forced and unbelievable.
And does not fit with how the rest of the film plays.
The rest of the film presents the rest of the galaxy as either people that only care about their own profits or as too sacred or weak to lift a finger to help.

And to me this last second bit of "We will strike back!" does not work within the rest of the film.

I get what the film is going for. It sets up a doom, despair and hopelessness situation.
The FO is this massive wave of Evil and it is conquering the galaxy and there is no stopping them.
Only Leia and the Resistance tries to fight them and they get beaten and defeated over and over again until they are a tiny fraction of what they used to be. While the FO suffers some losses but nowhere near as bad.
And then at the end we have "Hey Luke Skywalker!" and that will turn everything around.
Sorry, but it did not work for me.

The film overdid the gloom and doom portion, the FO is made SO super strong the the Resistance is SO beaten down and defeated and the rest of the galaxy is made to look SO weak, that this turn around does not seem credible.
I figured after watching TLJ that the next film would either ret-con some of the thing in TLJ or pull a big Deus Ex Machina and as it turns out ROS did both.

Not to me, I judge the films as films and I judge based on what is IN the films, not what is in books, games etc. And this applies to all series. I judge the HP films as films, I don't grant them leeway with "Oh this was explained in the books."

That isn't what is said in ANH, Han says that as he will loose them as soon as he jumps to hyperspace.
And there is no indication of multiple jumps. He needs the coordinates for Alderaan and to calculate the journey there. That has to be exact or they risk coming to close to a sun or a supernova and that will destroy them.
So it is one jump, but a carefully calculated one.

No you could totally loose them and the film does not change.
Leia could just be trying to contact anyone in the galaxy and ask for help and when no one answers, it hammers the same point home, the Resistance is alone against the FO.

.

Their function is to show how the rest of the galaxy either does not care or is too scared to fight.
Again setting up the hopelessness message.

It is a planet and a base that is larger than the DS.
The number of people there would likely be in the millions.
And we saw no huge fleet there so it seems that most of the FO people there died with SKB.
That loss would be significant. But TLJ makes it out to be nothing.

See above for why I think the FO is depicted as being stronger than the GE.
As for plans, they built SKB, that was their key to victory.
They could not, at least TFA implies this, totally conquer the rest of the galaxy, they did not have the men or ships to do that.
They needed SKB to win. They could take out the NR central system and some of it's forces and with the threat of this type of destruction, they could force a surrender from the rest of the galaxy.

IF they had a military that is big enough to conquer the galaxy, or big chunk of it, then TFA makes no sense.
The NR set up the Resistance as a means to fight a proxy war against the FO.
The NR, for unexplained reasons, did not want a full on war with the FO, so they funded and supported the Resistance to do their fighting for them.
Now we get an idea how many ships the Resistance has, less than 10 big ships, some bombers and fighters. That was apparently enough to be a serious threat to the FO. This to me implies that this is somewhat comparable to the FO. The FO should be stronger but not 1000 times stronger.

Also, if the NR knew that the FO was this strong and could conquer the galaxy or a big chunk of it in weeks, their relative inaction makes no sense.

As far as the films go, yes it was.
And it is upon later works to be consistent with earlier ones.
If some later work contradicts the first film, that is problem with that work, not the first film.

Again, you hade something like 50 ships, many thousands of soldiers vs a planet with no army or soldiers and it still took days to get total control.
So TPM showed a very one-sided invasion.
Again, multiply this with 1000 and you get huge numbers with both ships and soldiers.
And 1000 systems would be a very tiny portion of the galaxy.
And again Naboo was very weak.

No it didn't, the Rebellion grew. That is why it is much larger in RotJ.

Not just Hux, Kylo seems less than bright more than once as does Snoke.
And the rest is not as stupid as Hux but don't show that they realize that his tactics are moronic or offer any kind of differing opinions. So they don't come across as all that bright.

I don't think there is much comparison with Hux in TFA and in TLJ. The character seemed to have dropped a hundred points in IQ and was reduced to an idiot for two reason, one, comedy! And second, so that the resistance isn't destroyed 15 minutes in. Also known as an Idiot Plot.

Changing the subject but I have debated this before and to me, Obi-Wan can not weasel out of "Killing" Anakin.

Obi-Wan either made the choice to dismember Anakin, which given the place they are at, is a death sentence. With no legs and only one arm, Anakin will not be able to move and WILL die as a result of the environment. So this is still killing, it is just slow, cruel and painful.
If Obi-Wan just chopped randomly and didn't intend for what happened, he can see the result, he KNOWS that Anakin will die and that it will be very painful and will take some time.
Again, that death is totally on Obi-Wan, he can not say "I didn't kill Anakin, the fire did." anymore that someone that pushed a person from a high building could say "I didn't kill him, it was the ground that killed him."
So Obi-Wan has already "killed" Anakin by inflicting a mortal wound that, baring outside intervention, will kill Anakin.
The only choice Obi-Wan now has is to either take responsibility for that and either try to save Anakin or end his suffering. To just leave is cruel.
And I have felt this way ever since I saw RotS and I thought it was totally out of character for Obi-Wan or any Jedi to act in this way. I get why, so that the OT can happen, but I felt it did a huge disservice to Obi-Wan.

And if the Jedi way is like this, that if a Jedi is fighting someone and causes a mortal wound but not a immediate fatal one. So the enemy is lying on the floor, screaming in agony and the Jedi sees "This person is going to die but it will take time and be very painful." For that Jedi to just leave the person there, screaming as they slowly die, that is horrible. And I can not think that the Jedi are this cruel.

But to me, TLJ makes it seem like the Force made Rey this super powerful.
It wasn't always there, there was an in-balance, caused by Ben Solo turning dark and so the Force picked a person at random and made them it's champion.
So it could have been anybody, it just happened to be Rey.

So Rey is "special" because the Force choose her and made her super powerful.
That is not that much different from her being "special" because of her family.

That the Force can act in this manner is consistent with the PT, where is "created" Anakin and made him super strong so that he could kill the Sith.

Personally I am not all that fond of the Force being a "deity" that takes such a direct hand in this.
Anakin Skywalker was essentially a Demi-God, a man without a mortal father. That made him less relate-able to me.
Luke in the OT, yes he had a Jedi father but he was still an ordinary person.
And to me, if the Force wants someone dead and can act directly, why doesn't it just kill that person?
If the Force wants Palpatine dead, just tell the midis in his body to give him cancer or they should stop reproducing, which will weaken Palpatine and would eventually kill him when the number reaches zero.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Yes - he'd already turned 20 as of AOTC (novel), 23 in ROTS, 42 in ANH, 45 in TESB, 46 in ROTJ.

 

Isn't that an Ahsoka line? It's a good line. Anyway, yes they were soldiers in the Clone Wars. Whether they were supposed to be is irrelevant to what they actually were. And anyway, Peacekeepers implies peacekeeping, as in, some form of warrior-like fighting, which is why the Jedi are warriors. They're not mediators. They're not therapists. Cops are called peacekeepers. Soldiers are called peacekeepers. The term peacekeeper does not preclude law enforcement or warrior.

Legends reflects the fact that someone besides me didn't see it the way you do, and yet you keep stating your opinion/interpretation like it's factual canon. It's not. It's just your interpretation. If Disney writes an Obi Wan line in his new show where he states he left Vader alive to be rescued by Sheev on purpose, I'll stop being an Obi fan.

The novelization makes it clear in that author's interpretation that Obi believed Vader would die, hence he viewed killing him quickly to be a mercy. He then rationalized not mercy killing him, and leaving him in a pit of lava burning up with one limb.

 

What a cruel thing to do. I guess Obi-Wan wasn't ideal after all.

Did Disney change Anakin's age as well? I can remember for years that he was nine years old in TPM, nineteen in AOTC and twenty-two in ROTS. This would have made him 45 years old in ROTJ.

 

I figure that, at least in the Legendsverse, he's 9 but very nearly 10 in TPM, and just over 10 years have lapsed between TPM and AOTC (the novelization made a point of saying he'd just turned 20).

I don't recall if the newcanon has ever given exact figures for how much time passes.

 

This has always been my interpretation of it. I have seen a lot of jokes and memes about how Obi was cruel to leave Anakin burning up in lava with one limb. The Jedi Party satire deals with this hilariously. Obi so blatantly left Anakin to die a miserable death in my view, that that's the issue to question on whether it was the Jedi way. Doing that probably resulted in Anakin falling even deeper to the dark side, not that massacring children didn't already prove his total commitment.

 

Not if they didn't like it. Besides, you're making assumptions here. When I walked out of TLJ, I was luke warm on it (no pun intended). I've loved every SW movie ever made, regardless of how others felt, but this time, I was definitely unsure of how to feel. I knew that it didn't function in the way a second part of a trilogy needed to function, but I was looking for the positive. Disliking a SW movie was outside the realm of possibilities for me at that point. The second and third time I saw it, I started to embrace the movie... In hindsight, I was trying to find the good in something despite a feeling deep down that it just wasn't good. I've seen the movie dozens of times, and every time I watch it, I do my best to try and see it in a more positive way. But ultimately, about thirty minutes in, I find myself coming back to the opinion that the movie simply fails to entertain me. If I had to find one word to describe it, it's that the movie feels like a huge BUMMER. Learning Vader was Luke's father was not a bummer. It was a set back for the main character, but it actually made the story much more interesting. With TLJ, the set backs IMO made the story worse. Rey was a nobody, Luke's character was unrecognizable, and then he died, Snoke was taken out without any explanation as to who he was (despite RJ knowing how much that mystery had captivated fans), and Kylo was now the main villain, despite the fact that he had been defeated by Rey in each of the first two movies of the trilogy. After TLJ, there was no road map in terms of what part three would even be about...which is why JJ had to bring back Palpatine, a move that undermines the first six episodes at the very least.

I respect your opinion here, but I disagree with it on a fundamental level. All SW movies are art movies. ANH was about as artistic an achievement as any movie ever made. I don't find TLJ philosophically deep. I think RJ was confused by SW in general, didn't understand how these movies work, and failed in practically every way possible. The new characters he created, namely Rose, Holdo, and DJ, were anything but deep, or artistic, and IMO, Holdo and DJ will both go down as two of the worst SW characters ever. Finn, who was a really great character in TFA, was completely wasted in TLJ. Poe was turned into a complete jerk off, just so RJ could seemingly "arc" him back into the hero he already was in TFA. Not to mention how depressing and soul crushing it was to see Luke acting like a grumpy old man who had thrown in the towel. Going against expectations is not "artistic" in its own right. It has to be done well. And IMO, RJ's choices were terrible, or in other words, artistically bad.

I find the movie neither edgy nor interesting. I find it dull, depressing, and essentially dismissive and belligerent towards the franchise as a whole. Just my opinion.

 

I don't think there's much new, much edgy and/or interesting involved here. I don't think fans need to be anything to the movie.

I may think similarly about some of what I think Rian's perceptions about TFA may be, but I don't have to like how he developed it or think it good what he did with it. Even though as it stands, i think he basically continued along with the reskin of OT.

 

I’d say that TFA has blame with it too. Especially some of the blatant copying and empty set up.

One thing about TFA too is that’s its not particularly deep. It’s pure surface level stuff and like @anakinfansince1983 said, design to give you those “adventurous nostalgic feels” but there’s not much under the surface.

Looking at it and TROS makes you really look at how JJ throws together fetch quest and pass it off as a story.

 

I don’t know how became “qu” but it really doesn’t get the same message across that way smh.

 

Putting aside the fact that I don't find the whole idea of this conversation credible, the idea that the ST is Leia's story is just so completely wrong, I don't know where to bein. It's only her story because she birthed the villain and had to die for him to be "redeemed" because she does nothing else of consequence. She's hamstrung politically, dressed in ugly clothes in TFA and made subservient to Han's story. In TLJ, she's reduced to slapping Poe, turned into a cheap Terry Gilliam interstitial to save herself and dumped into a coma. Then in TROS she gets to die to "redeem" Kylo. That anyone at LFL can claim the ST is her story shows their complete lack of understanding what story is and certainly what feminism is - well, what they did with Rey is already proof of that one.

There's no way to prepare someone for the awfulness of TLJ. I had read six months of comments about how bad it was before I saw it on Netflix but that was not enough.

Why? It's not going to improve by being charitable towards it.

I doubt his ability to make a movie of any kind. This is the only thing of his I've seen and I never want to see anything else.

Exactly. I knew, back in 2012 when the announcement was made that they were going to be in the new movie, that they would be cameos. Ha, joke's on me! I would have preferred cameos compared to the insult that is the ST. I wanted them together on a screen and still together in some form, not the bleak destruction they were given.

Oh, it's not just because Anakin is old and Ben is young - Ben is too good looking and too sad to die ::eye roll:: I've seen this too, with Luke, with Han, with Leia and I want to scream. I just hope I hang on long enough to show up with receipts when these jokers get old.

Louder, for the people in the back, please.

 

I agree with this 100%.

Also, people tend to forget. ESB and ROTJ each received a fair amount of fan backlash upon their initial release. This fact has largely been lost to time, but I have stacks of ancient Starlog magazines that contain the early 80's fanboys and fangirls ranting/complaining about our beloved Episodes 5 and 6.

 

That's a shame because both Looper and (especially) Knives Out are very good.

 

Re: TFA & TROS editor

Making Star Wars (via /Film): "The Jedi Hunters have been around for a long time and were tasked with protecting the Sith. Once the Sith were destroyed, they began to rise up and disturb the growth of the Jedi. So that’s what Luke Skywalker has been doing for the past 30 years, attempting to stop the 'Jedi Hunters.' One scene that was reportedly filmed includes the 'Jedi Hunters' worshiping the Sith. The rumor is their goal is to resurrect at Sith and will succeed at the end of Episode VIII, which will then lead to the conflict in Episodes IX." (June 16, 2014)

Latino Review: "The Inquisitors are the villains of Star Wars: Episode VII and the name of the main villain in Star Wars: Rebels. They seem to be loosly based on the now-deleted Expanded Universe Inquistors mixed with the hardended Sith look of Rebels' villain. The Inquisitors are defenders of the Sith Order and they’ve been around for a long time. Just how long is what turns Episode VII’s story on it’s head. When our hero(es) find Luke and the Inquisitors are revealed, Luke’s explanation on the history of this order is going to trigger a flashback to explain that the Inquisitors have been tied into the Sith all along." (August 15, 2014)

Latino Review: "Palpatine comes back as a Force Ghost..like Obi Wan. (Sith Lords learned similar techniques, which in some cases allowed them to physically interact with their environment.) Palpatine will not be a clone, not in human form. Palpatine had a new apprentice before he got killed. Why would the clone be an old emperor? Go look at some of the old Dark Horse Comics. They cloned the emperor in those comics. Why would they repeat that? Why bring the emperor back to life? That would just be stupid as all hell. Sorry to geek fans who made up their own world but it just is NOT how it is. Once again not going by any books. Not one thing they have in the script is from a book." (August 13, 2013)

Wonder how much the TFA editors knew about any of this stuff beyond that which they worked on. They definitely knew Luke was being changed because Luke was going to not be cut off from the Force at the end of TFA and he was going to be surrounded by floating boulders when Rey met him, and this was changed. Brandon (pre-TLJ archive) had brought up back in 2016 that maybe Finn could have the Force and stuff about Rey that was later deleted from the interview - stuff that TLJ didn't follow-up on.

See also: Mizzlewump

 

None of this made it into the final cut of TFA. TLJ directly followed-up on the little information provided by the movie which was that Luke walked away from everything after his falling out with Ben Solo. Besides, how is Luke gonna stop the Jedi Hunters by chilling out some island in the middle of nowhere.

 

Really overselling Finn’s alleged depth. He’s rather well-adjusted for a brainwashed-from-birth stormtrooper and shows no lasting psychological trauma from his experience in the FO. You put a human face on a stormtrooper and then continue on with them as canon fodder, with Finn taking delight in their dispatching.

I thought TFA really dropped the ball with his character. They made him goofy comic relief who gets dunked on for most of his runtime and his arc consisted of running away to running toward his friend. Not seeing the depth there.


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