ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

I agree with all of this.

But keep in mind that she, Finn, Poe and Connix work to allow her and Finn to sneak off later to Canto Bight.

But that’s on the small ship that she and her late sister Paige own.

 

"And it's ladies night tonight at the Exegol Hotel Ballroom!"

 

It’s all part of Rose’s arc. She begins the movie as a bit of a “jobsworth” carrying out orders to the letter for the good of the Resistance, and by the end she is more of a maverick, ramming Finn out of the way when he is headed for the cannon, even though that would be tactically the best thing for him to do for the good of the Resistance.

 

I don't think Rose uses that as a reasoning in the movie. I think she tases him based on him being a deserter.

I think that's not in the movie.

 

Lost me edit

Notice in the opening crawl of ROTS it references the Republic "crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord Count Dooku". Like the TLJ crawl's "Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy."
Both crawls are now a fakeout for the audience with Sidious behind it all.

A Skywalker takes Dooku out as part of an eventual power-grab for Dooku's position. He later joins Sidious hoping to get the power to save his wife's life and then kill Sidious and rule alongside her.

Again a Skywalker takes Snoke out as a power grab for his position.
He later agrees to help Palpatine - the threat to his own power - yet secretly wants he and Rey to kill Palpatine and rule together.

One story ends with Anakin's selfishness causing Padme's death and Vader subservient to Sidious.
The other ends with Ben's selfless sacrifice bringing Rey back, after she kills Sidious as a Jedi.
Anakin was given the name Vader by Palpatine, Rey abandons the Palpatine name and adopts the surname Skywalker to carry on Anakin, Luke, Leia, and Ben's legacy.

 

Quite, she does say that she is going to turn him in as a deserter, or somebody who intends to leave a “military” controlled outfit without permission, usually with the intention of that being permanent. But it is understandable under their situation at that time why that wouldn’t be allowed.

 

I haven't been able to locate the script for the Last Jedi, but I did find the transcript. It's under a spoiler tag due to its length.

Spoiler: Rose & Finn

ROSE: What are you doing here?

FINN: Hey, hi. Uh, I was... Uh, you know...

ROSE: You are Finn! The Finn!

FINN: The Finn?

ROSE: Sorry... I work behind pipes all day. Doing talking with the Resistance heroes is not my forte. Doing... Doing talking, yeah... I'm Rose.

FINN: Breathe.

ROSE: OK.

FINN: Yeah, look I'm not a Resistance hero, but... It was nice talking to you, Rose. May the Force be with you.

ROSE: Wow. You too. Good. But you are a hero. You left the First Order-what you did on the Starkiller Base. When we heard about it, my sister Paige said... "Rose, that's a real hero." "Know right from wrong.... "and don't run away from when it gets hard," she said. You know... Just this morning, I had to stun... three people who were trying to jump ship. In this escape pod.

FINN: What?

ROSE: They were running away.

FINN: That's disgraceful.

ROSE: I know.

FINN: Anyway, uh... I gotta get back to what I was doing, so.

ROSE: What were you doing?

FINN: Just, just, uh checks.

ROSE: Checking the escape pods.

FINN: No, it's routine checks.

ROSE: While boarding one... with a packed bag.

FINN: Okay. Listen, I... I can't move. I can't move.

ROSE: I know.

FINN: What happened?

ROSE: I'm taking you to the bridge and turning you in for desertion.

FINN: I was not deserting. - I told you that...

ROSE: My sister just died... protecting the fleet. And you were running away.

FINN: I'm sorry. This fleet is doomed... If my friend comes back to it, she's doomed too. I've gotta get this... I've gotta get this beacon very far away from here, then she'll find me and be safe.

ROSE: You're a selfish traitor.

FINN: Look, we cannot outrun the First Order fleets.

ROSE: We can jump to light speed!

FINN: Well they can track us through lightspeed.

ROSE: They can track us through lightspeed?

FINN: Yeah. They'll just show up 30 seconds later and we'll have blown a ton of fuel. Of which, by the way, we're dangerously short on.

ROSE: They can track us through lightspeed.

FINN: Yes. And they could... I can't feel my teeth. What did you shoot me with?

ROSE: Active tracking.

FINN: What now?

ROSE: New hyperspace tracking... Hyperspace tracking is a new tactic but the principal must be the same as any active tracker.

FINN: So they're just tracking us...

ROSE: Only tracking us...

FINN AND ROSE: From the lead ship.

ROSE: But we can't get to the tracker. It is an A-class process they'll control from the main bridge.

FINN: Well, I mean, yes, but every A-class process...

FINN AND ROSE: Has a dedicated power breaker.

ROSE: But... Wait, but who knows where the breaker room is on the Star Destroyer?

FINN: I'm the guy who used to mop it. If I can get us there....

ROSE: I can shut their tracker down.

Source: https://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-development-of-the-sequel-trilogy.50046418/page-253

 

I don't agree, certainly not tasing someone who isn't even apart of the group, I think, into unconsciousness.

In a way I think this connects to my issue with the way the movie portrays the authority of the resistance. Holdo can make whatever call she wants and she just can and no one can question it or ask if she has a plan, because she's in charge and she's right even if she's dismissive to her subordinates. Rose can just tase people, because they're deserters and have it coming, because they don't want to die, when as far as I think the movie develops, she's not said to be authorized to do any of it.

 

She was authorized.

This is how a military works.

Was the Resistance voluntary. Sure. Most militaries of our modern world are including the USA.

But once you join, your in. You can’t just feel like quitting or going AWOL whenever you feel like it.

 

I think the movie doesnt say that.

I didn't say the military was always right.

I think Finn isn't in. The military isn't right in how they operate based on them being in charge.

 

Just watched the scene again. There's literally a dude sitting in the jail cell Rose is taking Finn to lol ... but yea she wasn't on escape pod duty or anything.

 

I think Rose didn't say she was taking him a cell, but to the bridge. But I don't think her turning them in has to equal she was on duty to do that. I think Finn isn't in the resistance.

 

"utter mess" is my own wording, and admittedly it's perhaps too harsh - "a mess" might have sufficed better. The point is, by all accounts, if the Marcia and the others had'nt come in and edited the film the way they did and it had aired shot and paced as it had originally been, I have a very strong feeling we would'nt be here on this forum having this discussion.

If I recall correctly there's a pretty good video essay on Youtube that breaks apart how the editors streamlined and cleaned up the movie and all the issues that it had before hand regarding exposition, pacing and presentation.

Anyway, this is'nt really relevent - this is'nt the devolopment of the OT thread

Nothing in ANH tells us that Han Solo did'nt have a heart of gold deep down, and in fact the end of the movie seems to prove that he did.

I'm not using them to prove the internal logic of the film, I'm using them to prove the internal logic of the universe - Han in the old canon and Han in the new canon have almost 100 percent the same backstory, so Solo did'nt actually revise anything.

They treat his departure as very final - both him and Leia act as if their never going to see each other agian - so it always seemed clear to me that the implication was he was planning on not returning.

The Falcon obviously was'nt in need of repair for three years, though. And Han's moment in the hallway (before he said "so long princess" all angry) always seemed to indicate that he was waiting for her to make the admission that she loved him, something that would have given him a reason to stick around, and when she did'nt he decided their was nothing for it.

And he was on patrol becuse, impending departure or no, he was still an active member of the group.

I think the dilogue was quite moving and it was one of my favorite scenes in the film

Also, if my wife's dad was some sort of evil space wizard war criminal who personally tortured me and killed/helped kill millions/billions, I would'nt really care that he decided to be good during the last few minates of his life.

I was guessing; we don't know what, if any, career he had in the interm, but that seems like a logical possiblity (not for the whole three decades though, lol, only until Ben was grown) since we know what Leia's job was and it was a job that would have taken up most of her time and energy.

It's not that he did'nt want to save him, it's that he considered him lost to him (until Leia and him talked it out) - just like Obi-Wan considered Anakin lost post RTOS.

It seems logical - why would'nt he be? - and fits with his characterization in the film. I don't think it's a huge leap to make.

If your saying its becuse American police have tasers and certain parts of America has a problem with police mistreating African-Americans (which it does) then I think your reaching, with all due respect - after all, as somone who lives in a relativly drug-infested town were most of the criminals are white hicks, I can assure you it's not just blacks who get tazed.

Finn getting tazed (to say nothing of him getting attacked and accused of a crime he did'nt commit by a white woman on the street in broad daylight and nobody caring, which IMO seems way more racist then the tazing if we're honest) is'nt a racist act becuse A; it's not done becuse of his race, it's done becuse (Rose thinks) he's a deserter and B; Finn's race is never brought up and plays not part in his charaterization.

Now, I'm not going to tell other peaple what they personally find offense or troubling, but at the same time just becuse somone is offended by something does'nt mean the thing they are offened by was actually offensive or trying to be so.

Whether or not she's taking them to the brig or the bridge, we know Finn's not the first person she's had to do that to that day so, if she was'nt supposed to be doing what she was doing, don't you think whoever was on duty in either area would call her out for acting without orders?

He should'nt, but he does'nt have the right to steal their property in order to leave - as others pointed out those pods are imporent, and if he takes one thats one less for peaple who actually need them to take in an emergency.

I'm reasonable sure she says brig, not bridge - why would you take a prisoner to the bridge? Either way, if she's done it before and not gotten called out for it, then clearly she's not acting without authorization, would'nt you think?

Rose did'nt know Finn was'nt part of the group.

Rose's dilogue makes it pretty clear she thinks Finn legit joined the Resistence, as she calls him a "Resistence hero" and then, afterwards, a "deserter" and a "traitor," and she has right - indeed a duty, whether or not she was assigned to do so or not - to capture and turn in deserters. It's not her fualt if she was misinformed as to whether or not he had actually joined up - she's just a low ranking grease monkey, so can be forgiven for not having all the information or being informed inproperly

That was'nt Rose's ship, it was one of the Raddus's embarked shuttles - and she, Finn, Poe and Connix were all acting without orders. The lot of them are firmly in the wrong, but they don't know this (and neither does the audiance)

 

In the span of ten seconds, Rose goes from being unable to speak in the presence of Finn because he is such a hero, and then tasing him for being a deserter. She's an idiot.

 

We have statements of Kasdan and Johnson saying its the case, so yeah, we do.

The difference is we know TLJ set things up and TFA did'nt (see above) and we know Kylo was'nt supposed to be lying becuse A; Johnson said he was'nt and B; we have acess to the script for DTOF, which was written while TLJ was being made and was going to be the sequal before Fisher's death threw a nail into the machinary, and that script shows tha

I'm confused; so have you been stating TLJ factually ingored setup from TFA, or that it's just your opinion that it did.

And I did'nt say you were petty - I said.

I'm not dimissing anyone's opinion, I just don't see any reason why peaple should get upset becuse their opinions and theories were wrong; that seems enomormously petty

Becuse that is what that view of things strikes me as.

Nothing in TLJ suggests Leia and Poe no longer respect each other, and in fact things in the film show pretty firmly they still do.

The two movies did'nt present their relations different ways, they just presented different facets of it in the two films - not listening to and having a disagreement with, or having to scold, someone is not mutally exclusive with respecting someone.

Do you have evidence Johnson wrote the character to fit that sterotype?

Hell, if Poe is a "toxic male" then so is every other charecter who fits in the archetype of "cocky maverick pilot who occasionally plays loose with authority," including not only Han Solo and Anakin Skywalker, but also NuBSG Starbuck - who is a woman.

The Resistence is'nt an actual militery, it's an ad-hoc paramilitery group that is shown to play pretty lose with regulations; Leia herself does'nt wear a uniform in TLJ or TROS and was never even a real militery officer, just a senator who decided to call herself a general, and Poe rocks stubble and chills in a leather jacket most of the time, so I don't see why Holdo should be held to different standerds.

And Holdo never actually flirts with Poe in the film (the closest we come is when she strokes his cheek while he's out cold, but at most that just indicates she finds him attractive), so irregardless of whether Johnson want to suggest she was flirting, she never actually does in the context of the narrative itself - and maybe Holdo's just a woman who likes to get the guys attention? Nothing wrong with that and she's definatly not breaking any of the Resistence's rules by dressing the way she does - or, at least, if she is so are Leia and Poe (and Rey in TROS).

I don't think you understand what "setup" means in this context.

Ingoring setup would be like if, hypothetically, in TMP had Palpatine go "we will be watching your career with great intrest" and then did the panover to him at the funeral when Mace and Yoda were wondering which of the two Sith was alive, but then in ATOC Palpatine was'nt a Sith Lord manipulating things from the shadows and neither him nor Anakin cared about or mentioned the other. That's ingoring setup - what your discribing would simple be someone acting out-of-character.

Finn being an ex-Stormtrooper/defector is only once emphasized in TFA as a big deal (when he confesses to Rey), what are you talking about? It's such not a big deal that they could have made him just a full on janitor or not a member of the FO at all and virtually nothing about his character would change.

I get that you think this was a big deal and, frankly so do I, but the movie did'nt really care that much - per JJ's own words the character was their for comic relief.

Just becuse he did'nt do what you wanted him to do with the character does'nt mean he did'nt care about him or his story.

The sequal did devolop the character though - just not in a way you would have liked it to.

He also has his own story and journey in TLJ that is even more distint from Rey. He was'nt overshadowed, his storyline just did'nt go the way you wanted (a lot of these issues can be boiled down to personal satisfaction - TLJ did'nt do anything wrong regarding the stories and charactes, it just did'nt meet some peaples expectations or desires).

No, she's just incorrect - if you had orders from your superiors to taze deserters and you belived someone was a deserter becuse, as far as you knew, they were a member of your outfit, you'd do the same thing (or, at least, I would assume/hope you would).

Just becuse someone is wrong does'nt make them an idiot - Rose is no more an idiot for tazing Finn becuse she thought he was a deserter then Rey is for assualting him becuse she thought he was a thief.

 

That's an odd comparison, since Rey didn't know Finn at all. Had never met him, had no idea who he was, while she had made "friends" with BB-8, who was telling her that Finn was a thief. That's quite different than knowing all about Finn's heroic actions that saved the Resistance and destroyed Starkiller Base like two days ago. Rey was wrong for what she did, but she was acting based on her "friend's" information. Rose was attacking someone she knew was a hero, and had literally saved her life and everyone else's life, again, like two days ago.

 

She was also acting under orders, and irregardless of whether she had heard of Finn's heroic deeds, she still thought he was a member of the Resistence who was deserting, which was both infurating to her personally becuse of her sister's recent death and a thing she was posted at the pods to prevent. I doubt any respectable combat outfit, legit or paramilitery, would allow someone to get away with theft and desertion just becuse they also happened to be a hero.

Both Rey and Rose were wrong, but based on the information both had, both also acted correctly, if somewhat aggressivly.

 

^
I disagree. Both were wrong. Rey was definitely wrong, but she was being mislead. Rose was wrong, at the very least, because according to RJ, Finn wasn't a part of the Resistance, so he can't be deserting. She knew who he was. She had no reason to think he was a member of the Resistance, since RJ certainly didn't see it that way, and he wrote her character. I would have assumed he was a member of the Resistance after the end of TFA, but RJ decided that wasn't the case, so you can't have it both ways. She made a decision to stun a hero who had no ties to the Resistance (according to RJ's vision, which itself was ridiculous, but like Hamill once said, I disagreed with every decision the guy made). Great actress. Terrible character. And in the end, Disney chose to basically ignore her in ROS, because she had no utility at all.

 

Rose's dilogue indicates that she fully belives him to be a member of the Resistence.

Of course you can - Finn can not be a member of the Resistence (which is'nt Johnson's fualt, since Abrams never had him join the group in TFA and had the character himself make it very clear even when he was helping them that he was'nt part of their cuase) and Rose can still belive, based on what she has heard through the grapevine, that he is. Rose is'nt omnipotent.

No, she made a decision to follow her orders - and even if she had know Finn was'nt a Resistence member she still would be within her rights to disable and apprehend him, becuse he'd still be commiting theft by attempting to make off with Resistence property (both the tracker and the pod, the latter of which is an asset that, by taking, he is depriving from peaple who would actually need it in an emergency and thus risking lives).

Yeah, sure, that's the reason...

 

According to extended material, Rose and her sister built that ship

 

Yes, your right, but just becuse they built it does'nt mean they own it - the transport that the pods belong to (their the head modules of the larger transports from TFA) are stated to built by the Resistence out of salvaged parts from other ships, and Rose is a mechanic, so I'm sure a large part of her job was helping build such vessels

Granted, I could be ill-informed and they could have personally own it, but I don't recall that being said anywhere.

 

If a character is necessary, you can't leave them out. She wasn't even remotely necessary, because she had nothing to do with the overall story. Nothing.

 

Watching the scene, I hear brig.

But I think she could be doing it without orders and that those in charge wouldn't necessarily bother to stop her. Why would they? It doesn't hurt them.

Rose doesn't say that's why she does in the movie.

I hear brig, as well. But I don't necessarily think so. They may allow it. But it doesn't necessarily mean she's under orders. Why would they even put a mechanic on that duty? Though going about it in that way would be wrong.

Finn says he's not resistance hero. But also, I see no reason why she wouldn't know that and why him helping them with something pledges him to them. She does not have a duty, on her own.

 

Since I didn't get into rumors or leaks or anything and wanted to be surprised by the sequel films, I didn't learn about the rumors or speculations until I went back through the old threads in this forum. One thing I have to say is I hope they never actually considered having Luke's hand floating around in space with the lightsaber. That would have been really hard to take. Compared to that the random chest in the castle basement without explanation was way better.

 

I have only a little time now so just about this,

There IS specific set up in TFA, I think you are just misinterpreting what they said.

Ex.
Towards the end of TFA Snoke says;

So Kylo will go to Snoke and he will get further training.
Specific set up.

Also from Snoke,

Again specific set up, Snoke wants Rey for something.

Both these things do happen in TLJ, Snoke talks about Kylo completing his training and Rey is brought to him.

Then we have Luke reacting to Han's death.
Han is Luke's oldest and most likely, best friend.
And Han was murdered by his son, one of Luke's former pupils.
TFA showed reactions from Chewie and others but not Luke.
That is on TFA as Luke was not present.
So TLJ could now show that, have Luke react to this news.
But we get nothing.
Just a "Where is Han?"
RJ apparently felt it was more important with Komedy! with Chewie and porgs rather than to show Luke's reaction to this.
Rey has more reactions, comments about Han's death in TLJ than Luke does.

Final example, the ending of TFA.
We see Rey approach Luke and he turns around and she pulls out the lightsabre and holds it out to him.
And then the film ends.

This is just a half a scene, the next film would have to show the other half in some manner.
Either just directly picking up where TFA left off, which is what TLJ did.
Or show it in flashback.

So TFA DID have specific set up and TLJ DID NOT have total freedom to do what ever it liked.
TLJ still had considerable freedom, who Rey was, was very open. What the state of the galaxy was, the state of the FO, how Kylo would move on. Etc.

I think that is part of the problem with the ST overall, no overall plan.
Each director can just do mostly whatever they want.
TFA has problems, the world building is very, very bare-bones. And it sets up many questions that it does not answer.
TLJ then compounds the problem with lack of world building by doing even less and ignores several of the questions from TFA. So we have two disjointed films and then a third has to patch it together, with not very great results.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface