Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Sorry but I can't see the pics

 

@Gamiel Dang, I forgot that sometimes happens when linking to Wookieepedia. Here you go.

Spoiler

 

It goes without saying, but goddamn Trevas is a great artist. Wish he could've made even more of those vignettes.

 

Glad to see this thread dusted off of late.

I know Dan and I would love to take a new-canon crack at the Atlas, though two caveats: a) there are no such plans at this time AFAIK; b) it's not like Dan and I have an exclusive right to authorship, should such a project happens.

That said, I think people here know I've kept pushing to update the Atlas appendix and complete the region maps with sector boundaries. And I've kept the database of star systems up to date, including with a lot of proposed placements that haven't seen the light of day.

Since dreaming is free: If there were a new Atlas of the Star Wars Galaxy, what would you like to see carried over from the Essential Atlas, and what do you think was missing in the original and/or didn't work so well and should be dropped for a new incarnation?

Some starting points that would be helpful to us:

* The core sensibility of Atlas 2.0 would be the same as the first go-round. There are a number of ways to approach such a project, all of them valid, but we wrote the book we wanted to see in the world and I doubt that would change.

* LFL uses the same map, so the basic assumptions -- big swath of Unknown Regions off to the left, etc. -- aren't up for grabs. Same for placements etc. Occasionally storytelling decisions force a change or a mistake comes to light that can be rectified, but those are exceptions. If something's been placed it should stay placed.

* I wouldn't necessarily view this as the first of a new series of Essential Guides. We never saw the Atlas as an EG; that was just the existing framework that offered a path to publication.

That's it. Would love to hear what folks think!

 

Illustrations for each world, similar to how it was in Essential guide to planets and moons

 

I was a big fan of the sections that expanded on particular and more or less obscure parts of the galaxy, from Hutt Space to Senex-Juvex. They've kind of become an idea nursery, and I smile every time I see one of those brief world descriptions bloom into something bigger. So yeah, given that the historical section probably wouldn't be as dense as in the original, I'd love to see a lot more of these "closer looks."

 

Since I'm guessing there's no real plan to revisit the (new) end of the Galactic Civil War, a rundown of the war in it's "final year" leading up to the Aftermath trilogy.
Also, an expansion on the independent states that appeared on the Outer Rim then, which Wendig dropped only as names without further explanation.

 

@jasonfry

First off, thank you so much for posting this! Its been awhile since I've been excited to post in a thread, but this is exactly the sort of "kick in the pants" I needed. In light of your questions, I pulled out my thumb-worn, binding coming apart, lovingly used copy of the original Essential Atlas to answer your questions. I'll start generally, but get more specific as I go.

Part I: The Political Galaxy
This section was always one of my favorites, as it is both fully of heady stuff that detail obsessed fans like us love, but it also lays the basic parameters for the book. You hit all the main regions, discuss the breakdown between systems/sectors/etc and use a bit of history to show just how damned difficult governing a galaxy spanning republic or empire is. The breakdown of each region was always a favorite part of mine, plus so much of this section of the guide really isn't contradicted much by the new canon. I'd argue 80% of it or more is still accurate, the rest would just be tweaks, edits, and new bits to reflect the world of the current canon. Laying out the major trade lanes and the various secondary and tertiary ones is great as well, as it makes the Galaxy feel more connected.

I'll echo what @JoinTheSchwarz said RE: the less obscure parts of the Galaxy. Some of them don't really resonate as much in the new canon given how little they come up (Herglic Space, Bothan Space, etc), but there is tons of regions to mine. I know you're a fan of Virgillian Space, so take an opportunity to expand on it. As David says, each of these little sections are such an awesome breeding ground for story ideas, both for creative types like yourself and fans like us. Mandalorian Space would be great for a deeper dive, ditto an updated section on Hutt Space and the Calamari Sector, both of which has slightly different histories in the new canon.

In general, the narrative structure of the Atlas as an "in-universe" document is something that works exceptionally well and I'd love that to continue.

Part II: Planets of the Galaxy
I always loved this part. Both in terms of the layout (harkens back to the old WEG guides on planets or the later WOTC ones you did for the Core and Rim) and the fact that it gives a great overview into A) why the world is significant (IU or OOU) and B) some of the things that make it unique. Broadly speaking, probably 75% of the worlds you chose are still just as important. Several would fall to the wayside (Bothawui, N'Zoth, Zonoma Sekot, Sernpidal, etc), but you'd be adding numerous new worlds that have played a key role in the new canon. Worlds like Chandrila, Hosnian Prime, Jakku, Takodana, Scarif, Exegol, Crait, etc would be needed. Most of the remaining worlds that you keep would just need new histories- Corellia updated to reflect SOLO, Mon Cala to reflect new canon changes in comics/books, etc.

If anything, I'd say expand this section. The films alone show us 30+ worlds, to say nothing of the prominent ones from TV, books, cartoons, comics, etc. Keep 70+ worlds, or if needed expand to 100. I don't even you on the selection process, as there are A LOT of worlds folks would want to see. I know art is more costly, but it each entry had not only the planet show alongside its stats, but an image of something on the world and/or its native species, that would be a really easy way for more casual fans to reference it. Uber geeks like us can see Mimban and instantly picture a Mimbanese, but a lot of fans can't. I'd add a section RE: allegiances as well, as we see in the Wookieepedia and even old WEG stuff. Listing the governments a world was aligned with in order is another great way of showcasing the longevity (or not) of the world in terms of galactic importance to the narrative. Sure, alot of worlds might list several powers (Galactic Republic, Galactic Empire, New Republic, etc), but it helps place the world into each era it is prominent in.

Part III: The Atlas of Galactic History
Boy oh boy, this section is the one that will require the most updating (due to the new canon), but it is also the one that will probably be the most fun as well. Your timeline is probably a bit more truncated- a brief blurb on the "Old Republic", followed by the 1000 years of the Galactic Republic up to its transition into the Galactic Empire. You could probably salvage big chunks about the founding of the Republic (at least the 1000 BBY one), plus you'd have ample opportunity to stitch together the High Republic Era and really showcase the Republic and Jedi at their best/most idealistic.

In terms of the campaign maps, you'd have your work cut out again, especially for the Galactic Civil War. You've now got to compress what took 5-15 years in the old EU into about a dozen months. That messy, insanely crowded, and violent year between Endor and Jakku needs A LOT of elbow grease, polish, and massaging to make it all work well. Hell, I've devoted years in my thread original titled from Endor to Jakku trying to do this... but it needs pros like you and Dan to help make a cohesive story about it. Broadly speaking, the New Republic has a stable base in the Core in less than three months... is building new warships in six months, and is outgunning the Empire and winning the war by nine months. Throw into this mix Operation: Cinder, the Starhawk Project, the rise of new minor powers just BEGGING to be explored (New Separatist Union, Sovereign Latitudes, etc) and you can see that you have both a headache AND an AMAZINGLY fun chance to make sense of it and add some of the nuance and details missing to date.

Lit - From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (TROS Novelization Spoilers) | Jedi Council Forums (theforce.net)

Now, this will come as no surprise to you, but I'd definitely make some maps that show the extent of each government at its apex. The Galactic Republic, Galactic Empire, Confederacy of Independent Systems, and New Republic for sure. Make sure you holler if you do a New Republic one, I've been researching and cataloging it for years now.

In terms of the Sequel Trilogy, I think you'd have almost cart blanche to make sense of the few years between TFA and TROS. I know you have done some work trying to shore up the First Order's borders pre-TFA, you could definitely have a really cool map set right before TFA that shows the New Republic, the Centrist worlds that seceded, and the "true" First Order holdings in the New Territories and Unknown Regions. We still know next to nothing about the First Order's invasion of the Galaxy post-Hosnian Prime. I find it hard to belief that every single New Republic member world or independent power simply folded or surrendered, so there would be some areas where you could hint at little side stories. A New Republic task force holding on at Virgillia, or skirmishes in Hutt Space between Hutt client species and First Order patrols.

With the Skywalker Saga wrapped up and stories taking a bit of a breather, this is the perfect time to write a new Atlas. Even if you have to avoid getting too specific on the still evolving eras like the High Republic, now is the perfect chance to really solidify and tie up the narrative between ROTJ and TROS. That alone could be its own book.

Anyways, sorry for the length of this. Not sure if it was helpful, but God I'd be lying if just discussing this stuff again doesn't give me a big smile!

--Adm. Nick

 

I don’t think I’ve ever told you this, and I probably never will do it again, but I 100% subscribe your post, Nick.

 

Here come some thoughts on Atlas 2.0 (aside everything aforementioned on 200+ pages in this topic ) :

Regarding the unfinished Sector boundaries Maps:
We saw already with the finished maps, we quickly had to either use retcons of oversectors, subsectors and historically different sector borders to keep all new and coming sectors in line with the old ones. So as much as I want the sector boundaries maps finished and with the Core and other tiny sectors becoming their own problem for that, I feel in the long run, sector boundaries are too fluid to be kept consistent. But hey I am not against Retcons, quite the contrary. And ultimately we'd have to expand the sector boundary maps into a 3D map to show overlapping sectors top and bottom. This aint a 2D galaxy after all and sometimes Upper "Insert Sector Name" or Lower "Insert Sector Name" does not mean adjacent sectors or core and rimward sectors with the same name, but truly sectors above and below each other. So I say, lets finish the set we started and add enough retcon potential with explenations like those I mentioned above for any inconsistencies.

Thus I also advocate to have Atlas 2.0 bring us some really innovative new ideas and concepts that may have been unthinkeable back then for 1.0:

(1) Embrace 3D map possibilities, enhanced book technology and the Retcon potential of the galaxies depth/heigth added to the maps (like a "go free of cartography jail" card it can present for inconsistencies being easily solved by adding the third dimension whereever 2D borders make trouble)

- Interactive 3D Galaxy Map with layers to be switched on and off, zoomeable, search function, etc. Maybe as enhanced book part via cellphone app or computer program to not limit it to mobile devices!
Like this brilliant fanwork: http://www.swgalaxymap.com

- Like we got for few sectors only so far (Endor's surroundings for one) a closeup 3D version of the sector or region and not just topdown views. Kinda GFFA Crosssections of 3D-ish parts and important areas. How do the big hyperlanes look in a turneable 3D model? Less straight? meandering up and down too?

- Are there non-Hutt controlled worlds on top or below Hutt Space?

- Given the 3D aspect, even if presented on 2D pages, the Slice needs to be thicker with populated worlds than the younger regions around it that may have spread far and wide but not as much up or down maybe.


(2) Planetary Maps and expanded Profiles

- Given most of the galaxy has been placed and is still used as such, one might expand the Planet Profile section by adding to each planet one or several planetary maps like the Essential Guide of Planets and Moons had. Be it topdown view, crosssection style with landscape and geology visible, skyline profile cutaway style. Planetary maps like Galaxies MMORPG had were nice and full of details and those combined with others that tried to place all iconic landmarks around important locations may be a good combination of many sources. Like where all around the Yavin IV temple are all the other sites we saw on Yavin IV in comics, books, etc. (going by Legends as example). Or for canon, frequently used places like Mustafar with a planetary map showing PT locations as well as Vaders later castle and other structures like TCW Black Sun stronghold, etc. all in relation to each other.

- Aside galactic or planetary maps, one might add all kinds of bonus content to the planet sections, from culture, tourism, travel related info and else, be it inuniverse snippets like the "Jedi vs. Sith The Essential Guide to the Force" had. Presented from a characters pov with maybe some nice Chris Trevas or elses character art or a scene from said location.

- Make the Atlas lived in and inuniverse (as it always was) like the WOTC Planet's Tour articles that each told aside stats a story about a location with important characters that highlited the culture and scenery and gave a direct "jump right in" introduction to the place and people and mindset there.


(3) Maps over time...

- Of course we need historical maps of all major new canon eras and powers, but those could tweaked again with new book and old technologies in interesting ways. Depending if publisher and book style warrant it of course, one might add overlays or non-digital interactive maps. Have some see-through foil pages that can be placed over maps, have punched out planet dots that then via turneable paper can change color markings and alignment revealing new and different combinations showing passage of time or else.

- Ancient Maps: Depending how much one can do and show in the past without limiting future authors, it'd be helpful to show at least the vague placements of some ancient sites or their chronological order (like Jedi sites) without going into too much detail of the era (despite me wanting to know it all!). Here one could also highlight different methods of hypertravel and travel without hyperspeed and how that affected colonisation and how Force Astrogators free of hyperlanes operated.
This is where I would make use of some TROS Visual Dictionary cue that connected Hyperlanes and Force Astrogation Maps to the World between Worlds / Vergence Scatter, etc. and thus technically GFFA Leylines! Same worlds but the routes are entirely different as are the methods travelled by. Lookwise one could make it a riff on some fancy esoteric holy geometry or other well known SW shapes (like the Galaxys Edge Map being remniscient of the computer lock R2 connects with with its regions, or like the DS2 Window behind Palpatines Throne, etc.).
It'd be interesting to see how different worlds connect for entirely different reasons back then and how that connection is carried into the present eras despite different travel and access in modern times and the past all but forgotten.

- At least 1 map of the Unknown Regions not split from the rest of the galaxy... showing how connected it was or with routes going in there. Even if it is Force Astrogator lanes only, or Revan Era's that saw brief Republic/Jedi expansion towards Lehon that dwindled again in subsequent years.


(4) Thematic Maps

- In part already adressed above in ancient thematics, other thematic maps could be in the style of Solo's Smuggler/Crime map from the Smuggler's Guide, or some more tourism focussed ones tied to Galaxies Edge and Star Tours but going beyond those selling points. I'd like to see maps with secret not well known routes, be it the Nihil's Paths, or the Claatuvac Guilds or the San Tekkas secret stash of unknown hyperlanes. Though the risk is authors see it and just use them so they become as if they were known routes by mistake sadly.

- Maps with different travel methods accounted for! Like colorcoded lanes aside the main ones that show which lanes are private only or only known to one organisation or group? Some straight shot lines that are nonrepeateable travels of hyperspace cannon use or generational ships.

- thematic maps highlighting "likewise" species, cultures or otherwise connected groups even if separated by distance. Like one for aquatic species, one for cultures excelling at beauty and fun, one for planet-based species, etc. to show their connectivities and how and why likeminded groups may work together despite distance (Gungan - Dac TCW episode conundrum!), or how despite similarities, some cultures are different still. This could also be reflected in the planet profile sections via some colorcoded markers or category system highlighting the most important features of said world or culture, be it based in the inhabitants, terrain, culture or else.



(5) As for out of universe maps, this may be a new interesting section from Disney/LFL's pov as a selling point:

-A map with planets or regions colorcoded by what story they appear in to give readers a quick reference what work takes place where or jumps around what worlds. This may be best left for the digital or enhanced version given the huge number of stories that can't be united in few maps with planets appearing in multiple often. Same for marking what story first introduced each world.

-A map showing what world appeared how often in stories and what less. This helps authors to find underused spots for their tales as well as shows fans what worlds aside the obvious movie worlds are the most prominent

-A section on Atlas related Etymology: In and out of universe, detailing what frequently appearing planet name elements stem from what reasoning or meaning/source.

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And most important of all...



I still need to know why Claudia Gray turned me into a planet... and where the hell I am supposed to be located @jasonfry !

I mean, I asked her, but got no reply...


Thx that is all... for now!

 

Expanding on ColeFarDreamer's post, the Batuu Guide was sort of a mini-Atlas, with its guide on the local attractions. A "tourist guide" would be a great way to tie in other themes - 'tour the great battlesites', ' tour the famous archaological sites', ' tour the best sports planets', etc.

 

Totally agreed here, would love that!

I bet @jasonfry would write an entire GFFA Sports Almanac if he were allowed to!

 

Just for funsies, I took a peak at the list of world's profiled in the original Atlas and did a quick "remove or add" exercise. Removing a world meant it was either a) no longer canon, b) no longer relevant in canon stories, or c) niche one offs from that era of time. It was still painful to type some of my hypothetical removals, cause I love so many of them (I'm looking at you, EU Anaxes!)

Removed
Anaxes
Anoat
Ansion
Bakura
Bestine
Bonadan
Bothawui
Boz Pity
Brentaal IV
Byss
Duro
Hapes
Honoghr
Iego
Kalee
Nagai
Nubia
N'zoth
Ossus
Rakata Prime
Rattatak
Raxus Prime
Rhen Var
Rishi
Ruusan
Sernpidal
Shadda-Bi-Boran
Thyferra
Triton
Tund
Zonoma Sekot

In terms of additions, I decided to take the VERY scientific approach of adding worlds from the ST, the Mandalorian, and various new canon novels/comics/games that seem to play a prominent role in multiple sources and/or a big role in a major work (Nevarro for Mando, Vardos for BFII, etc). This was not an exhaustive list, but a quick mental exercise, so I'm sure I missed more than I care to think of!

Added
Abednedo
Ahch-To
Ajan Kloss
Atollon
Baatu
Cantonica
Castillon
Chandrila
Crait
D'Qar
Exegol
Garel
Gatalenta
Glee Anselm
Hosnian Prime
Jakku
Jedha
Jelucan
Kijimi
Lah'mu
Lothal
Nevarro
Pasaana
Polis Masa
Raxus
Savareen
Scarif
Serenno
Takodana
Tython
Vandor
Vardos

As fun as this little exercise was, it gave me a headache. I wouldn't envy the authors who had to look through hundreds upon hundreds of cool/unique/favorite worlds and narrow it down to an "essential" list.

Anyways, pay no attention to this list, other than as a little President's Day exercise in killing time!

--Adm. Nick

 

Only thing I have to add is info on the home worlds of some ST species (like Abednedo) would be a great way to see some of these background races fleshed out more. It doesn't even need to those full page entries worlds like Alderaan or Tatooine got, if it's something similar to those blurbs on the Anoat Sector or Hutt Space I'd be happy!

 

Well everyone pretty much covered what I was gonna say, but I'll throw in my two cents. I really liked the planet profiles from TEA so I wouldn't mind seeing that again. I also wouldn't mind seeing the borders of the Clone Wars/Galactic Civil War/First Order-Resistance War and the waxing and waning of their territories throughout the years. I mean, as long as we get the placements of all the new canon worlds, I'm pretty content with that.

 

Thanks everybody. (And please keep it rolling!)

One thing I'm hearing pretty clearly is the planet profiles should be overhauled, which I agree with. Based on the good ideas above and some of my own thoughts, I'm thinking the following principles would most likely apply:

* Maintaining emphasis on star systems seen in movies/TV. As with any SW book, this is key to ensuring a casual fan who picks up the book quickly finds something familiar that says "come on in, the water's fine" and not "you're not welcome here." For TEA we included every star system seen or mentioned in the films (except Polis Massa, which we inexplicably missed). With so much TV we'd probably want to relax that standard -- sorry, Ansion and Shadda-bi-Boran -- but I think the general principle still applies.

* Smaller entries/different layout. I could see a mix of quarter-page spreads alongside halves, as well as full-pagers. Coruscant and Triton don't exactly need the same word count. I think a revised layout would feel more fun and less formal, too.

* More illustrations showing scenes from the planets, their technology, cultures, etc., not just globes in various colors.

* Smaller stat blocks. I'm a WEG diehard, so I insisted on replicating their stat blocks, but they take up a lot of space. Just the essentials this time around. Let go, Jace, let go!

* Far MORE star system entries. The explosion of content means a lot more worlds to play with. At the same time, if Atlas 2.0 were to happen, I predict a smaller footprint for certain eras of history and more caution to avoid stepping on future storytelling -- particularly WRT the ancient galaxy and the ROTJ-TFA gap. Put those two things together and I can see Gamiel getting (some of) his wish with more of an "Essential Planets and Moons" feel this time around.

To reiterate, this is still entirely a what-if. But it's fun to think about. Appreciate everyone's thoughts!

 

I really like the idea of more planet entries, but varied size. You're 100% right, not every planet needs the same length entry.

I'm reminded of how the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels tackled this. There were the main, full page entries and then a bunch of abbreviated ones at the back of the book. Using this setup, you could have say, 50-75 "main" entries and as many or more shorter entries for many of the known but less prominent worlds. Just don't you exclude Mon Cala from the prominent ones, I'll be watching...

RE: the eras of history, I think your approach is dead on. Some, like the Old Republic era, High Republic era, the New Republic era (ROTJ-TFA) would admittedly be a bit more vague and open ended. However, the Clone Wars, Galactic Civil War, and First Order-Resistance War are all more or less contained events now, so you'd really be able to go to town on them. As I mentioned in my original post above, the latter two are in the perfect place for pros like you and Dan to "massage" all the piece together, make a cohesive narrative (map wise), and plug in some gaps/plant adventure seeds.

One thing that worked VERY well in the EGTW was the military leader profiles. It would be cool to see this for political leaders in this hypothetical book. Chancellor Lina Soh, Mon Mothma, Dooku, Casterflo, etc all would be great profiles for political leadership. Whether they were first or third person could vary on how you wanted to tell their story.

--Adm. Nick

 

What about making some of the content online only - like the stat blocks and more minor planets?

 

I'd be careful with exclusive content or online only. I mean I am fully advocating an enhanced version making use of online, but it should be accessible to all parts of the world and not on some "this works only for US residents" website or somesuch. Likewise with making enhanced content only availeable for Apple users or other such problems. (I love apple and use it, but loathsome apple mobile devices are a different tale from the solid apple macbooks).

And another unusual idea... make a new Atlas an expanding ongoing work like the deAgostini Fact Files and other Mags?

DeAgostini does plenty of SW mags with lore focus and add on toys be it Build... R2, Falcon, X-Wing... or their FactFiles etc. Usually those do not create much new content, but I know some of the authors and these do have indeed new lore added, all sanctioned by LFL. (Starwarssourcebooks page on fb listed some new content in the past as one author is part of the Admin team!).

An Atlas Mag may be interesting and easier to update. Though mags do not run indefinitely and usually live from subscription more than in store buying which deagostini is due to price and subscription model hardly present anyway in most parts of the world. And we could add some nice Toys with each mag relevant for Cartography junkies... be it a collection of planet globes with each, or other various like Force Compass, Sith Wayfinder, foldeable sector, planetary, system maps, maybe a cartographer statue of Jason and Dan or two... etc.

I mean, you can do a 20-30 Euro Atlas for instant buyers... or you do a 500,- magazine run with 10,- per issue and have the space and gimmicks to enter the Cartography Nirvana for it would be 10times more than one book could be!

Again, I prefer a full book to a magazine, but I liked the options I mentioned too.

 

Pretty sure if we built in a "living document" component (something I'd support) we'd keep leveraging starwars.com/atlas. It's a little dusty but remains supported by TPTB, for which I'm grateful.

 

In the past the DeAg content has not been available in the US - that would be an issue. (Not sure why - licensing maybe?) The original FactFiles were only available in English in the UK, Australia, and a few other countries. I think they were available in German in Germany as well but the issue contents differed slightly.

 

Yub the different content in different countries puzzled me back then and I analysed what is missing where and posted about it. Not even minor differences but like 20-40 something including new licensed art for the magazine too.

Licensing or other issues indeed are a problem. F.e. IDW single issues are hard to impossible to find in germany aside via ebay or import.

 

I don't have a local comic store so I tend to go for the tpbs when they come out instead of single issues.

 

My favorite part of the Atlas is probably The Atlas of Galactic History and I've been yearning for something like it but updated for modern lore for the last few years. Especially knowing how often writers use the Atlas as a bible (even TV writers now!), an updated version of that could be really great. I think it's probably the part of the book that would benefit the most from a possible second edition. Distant history would have to stay vague but there's still a lot to play with. Obviously there's the era immediately after Return of the Jedi with all those fun vague factions to explore like Nick mentioned, and the High Republic (maps of Emergences please), and the sequel trilogy. I love the maps in the Atlas showing the lines of travel during the films and more of those would also be really cool and might appeal to a slightly less diehard audience, especially if there were also some for the various TV shows (like a map of Din and the Child's adventures and a map of the Colossus during season two of Resistance).