The fate of Shmi Skywalker... why?

Double Post

 

The difference between Anakin and the various martyrs of the battle is that the others all put themselves on the line out of duty to their homeworld (or, in the case of Qui-Gon, duty to the Order), while Ani was a complete outsider who risked his life repeatedly for people he'd only just met, and who twice gave them help that they couldn't have won without.

Even if Ami took all the credit for herself (not likely), she knows full well how much Anakin contributed, risked and sacrificed for her, and freeing his mom is the most obvious, personal way of saying thanks she could ever provide. Her opinion is the only one that matters here, and your entire argument hinges on the idea that when she said "my caring for you will remain," what she meant was, "Who are you again?"

 

No that isn't all what I'm saying. lol

I just want you to tell me how exactly Amidala considers Ani's efforts more important than everyone else's. Jar Jar wasn't there out duty. Why not give him lots of money from her 14 year old piggy bank. Or why not raise everyone's taxes while they try to rebuild?

Where in the movie does Anakin soley, all by himself, with no help save the entire planet? He doesn't at least no more than Jar Jar did, and never does anyone in the movie act like he does.
Your whole argument is based around some meta-movie thinking that you invented to dislike that aspect of the story. You aren't looking at from any of the character's points of view, nor are you looking at the entire team work it took to accomplish the attack.

Besides it's very clear that the issue of his mother is far from over.

 

Let's see, Padme's point of view:

"We owe you everything, Ani."

Anakin flew solo in the podrace, took the initiative in mowing down the three droidekas that would have wiped out Padme and all her men, then joined the space battle, and succeeded where everyone else failed miserably.

Jar Jar, under extreme duress, took Amidala to where someone else could help her.

I don't see the comparison.

Again, you assume (based on virtually nothing, and against all the evidence of Naboo's riches in the film) that not only is the Queen too poor to bargain for one slave, but that no amount of donations would cover it either. Any rebuilding efforts would have been minimal at best (judging from the nonexistent damage we see done to Naboo).

There's no need to defend such a flimsy plot point tooth and nail just because it happens to belong to movie you like.

 

Regardless of even trying to do it quiet like, she'd be barred from going there and wouldn't risk her people like that. There's a reason the regional govenors were created after the Clone Wars. To enforce Palpatine's rule out there where the Old Republic didn't exist.

Jedi are not rewarded and that is a reward for him.

Padme had to rebuild Theed and Ootha Gunga, replace the N-1's, keep the peace between the Gungans and Naboo and testify against Nute Gunray. Her plate was very full and she had little time for anything else. And as said, she won't send others into dangerous terrority and risk their lives like that. Not to mention that Palpatine would've told her not to go, just so he could get what he wanted.

 

Where in any SW film does any Hutt go around kidnapping at random? A queen? Maybe. Some guy, with a moderate sum of cash on hand? Highly doubtful. You're making the Hutts into much more than the film ever shows them to be.

Incidentally, Amidala was never discovered on her last visit, despite her original plan to buy a hyperdrive (valued at more than the average ship) with a ton of cash.

While she certainly had her diplomatic duties, there's no way that such menial tasks as the construction you're talking about kept her busy for the entirety of the next ten years.

Freeing Shmi, while Anakin may see it as a reward, would be much more for her benefit than his. While Jedi aren't allowed to accept compensation, does the code ban anyone from doing anything that any Jedi might like? Amidala isn't subject to the code anyway.

She doesn't need Palpatine's approval either, unless you want to tell me that she needs his approval on everything, which (as shown in AOTC) is clearly not the case.

 

Who said I like The Pantom Menace?
Typical. If you defend even one aspect of the movie then you refuse to see any errors. If you don't like one aspect of the movie then you are a mindless basher. This board can be so silly sometimes.

If I'm assuming no money where there is fortune because of the invasion then you are guilty of assuming fortune where there is no money simply because of the costumes and the capital building. lol It's silly.

Amidala said they owed Ani everything after he won the race. Not after he blew up the control ship. There's a big difference between saying, "I owe you." and "You saved my entire planet!"

 

Actually, the invasion points to there being money there; you don't get rich by robbing the poor, and the Feds didn't stick around long enough to do much damage. Combine that with the look and dress not only of the royalty, but everyone else in the final scene, and everything points to a rich population--certainly one well-off enough to pitch in toward the freedom of a single slave, assuming (as you have, nearly baselessly) that the Queen can't afford it herself in the first pace.

And you're reaching farther and farther to try and argue that (A) Anakin didn't do anything special, and (B) Ami isn't impressed or grateful in the slightest. The film directly contradicts both of these time and time again, and you might as well admit that. Anakin did infinitely more than his nonexistent share of the work, and he did it all for her.

 

How am i reaching?
Show me where Amidala (or anyone) claims that Anakin saved the planet by blowing up the control ship?
I'm sure she thinks what he did was great but she never credits him as their savior. She is greatful for him winning the race but, as I said, she also claims that she thinks there was a better way and doesn't want Anakin to do it. Of course she says, thanks after he won.
Also, the Feds weren't stealing anything. They were blockading the planet and then they invaded. What did they take? Well when you control a planet you control the natural resources. I didn't see them carting off any money. You assume alot outside of the film. I'm sure there was money in their accounts but how much is never said. It's not a valid argument.
After the battle of Naboo Padme accepts the credit as savior. Nobody points to Anakin. Where in the movie do they call him the Savior? Tell me or admit that you are reaching.

 

Prozac, for the last time, we aren't talking about whether or not the entire world specifically calls him "The Savior" (as if that were a requirement for Amidala's gratitude, or as if it mattered at all.)

The question is: Does what he did merit her gratitude? Your answer is "No, what he did wasn't good enough," to which I respond, "What more could he or anyone else possibly have done?"

You've argued that he did no more than Jar Jar, which is patently false.

You've argued that no one never took notice. Equally false.

Now you're pushing the goalposts so far off the field that they might as well not even be there.

Plugging your ears and repeating "But nobody called him 'The Savior'!" over and over again doesn't begin to cut it.

He did her three favors in a row, and she responds by forgetting him completely. So much for "we owe you everything," so much for "my caring for you will remain," and so much for "my heart goes with you." There's no good motivation for any of this; it's all one big transparent plot contrivance.

As for the Feds, Naboo had enough riches, in whatever form, for the Feds to stake their existence on in order to acquire it. That's not opinion or assumption; it's a concrete fact.

 

Why?

Who knows. Shmi stated to her son that her place was on Tatooine and that it was time for him to let go.

As a Jedi, Anakin is suppose to disconnect himself from his mother, from Tatooine, from everything he was prior to being apart of the Jedi Order. But he couldn't do it. Obi-Wan told him that dreams pass in time. I suppose he was telling his padawan to forget about his mother.

 

"There is just no real reason why shmi could not have been saved,"

Nope. No reason at all. Yet nobody did. Why you ask? That's the point of the prequels. This galaxy far far away that we are all so captivated by? It's not a good place. It's run poorly, to put it nicely. Just as a police officer cannot break the law to uphold justice, neither can a Jedi.

"I don't find anything redeeming in the jedi way of life, abandon all you love, forget attachment, is GL trying to make us hate the Jedi?"

Is hate the only option if you don't like them? Lucas is trying to make us like Darth Vader, once among the most evil villain seen on a movie screen. AOTC is all about this. Nearly every frame of it screams out: the republic is the empire, it's corrupted but is it evil? and every other frame screams out: the Jedi are arrogant, naive, ignorant, and totally controlled by exterior forces (such as the republic.)

The gffa is not what we once thought it was. The point of the prequels is to show us this. That's why many people no liken them, mesa thinks.

"The portrayll of the jedi is one of my biggest beefs with the PT, there's very little of what we've seen that I like."

Yup.

"Yes but I want to know why GL felt that this was a good way to portary jedi?"

Because it changes our entire viewpoint. The prequels are meant to change our perspective on the original trilogy. Nothing is black and white. There are farting animals. The rebellion isn't good, the Empire isn't evil. The light side is nice, but people who aren't following the dark side don't free slaves. The dark side isn't so desirable, but those who use it's power seem to make a difference in the world. Darth Vader isn't evil. The Jedi aren't cool. The force has scientific genetic qualities to it. That picture you get of the Jedi and the gffa after watching the classic trilogy for 20 + years? That picture is wrong. That's why Lucas is portraying the Jedi the way he is.

"But, a pod is worth one. That's why Watto made the bet with Qui-Gon. Right? You wouldn't bet me $200 if I only had to bet $50. Would you? Plus, Anakin won the Boonta Eve 500, so wouldn't that tremendously boost the value of his pod? Also, wouldn't Shmi obviously be considered less valuable than a youthful slave since Qui-Gon "won the small toss" when the dice came up snake eyes? So, why wasn't the sale of a champion pod enough to pay for a cheap slave? We can obviously see that Qui-Gon is a good business man from his dealings with Watto. What could farmer Cleigg have offered that Qui-Gon didn't? My theory is that Qui-Gon let Anakin get ripped off with the sale of his pod. Or, he could have sold it at full price and pocketed some for himself. He didn't want Shmi tagging along. He was a player. He loved her, left her, took her kid, and probably some money. Anyone picking up what I'm laying down? "

Yup, again, there are lots of ways she could, and should, have been freed. It easily seems like the most plot holes ever that she wasn't freed or rescued somehow. But the fact is, nothing in the movie implies that Qui-Gon didn't do his best to legally free Shmi. He did try and free her, but "Watto wouldn't have it." He's a Jedi too, however rebellious of the code he is. This means that he too is arrogant, naive, ignorant, and not capable of acting the way a true individual should act. The Jedi are captives of a system they can't control, and they don't realize it. They aren't even aware of the system. Things obvious to us as plot holes, the characters don't even begin to question at all. Except for Anakin of course. He's an innocent child with a wonderful mind. He knows how things "should be." He "should be" all powerful. Why? Because he can fix things. He's "good at fixing things." He will "stop people from dying." He will "decide what's in the best interest of everybody, and do it." See what's going on yet? This whole galaxy is ignorant of itself. Don't you just love Star Wars?

"there's nothing to indicate that e

 

Thank you for thinking that through, Rhane, although I do happen to disagree--not with what you said, but with whether or not the direction George has taken is good for the saga.

The OT was a fairy tale rooted in Campbellian mythology; there were definite heroes, definite villains, and very little in between.

The PT shifts both sides squarely into the middle, and breaks from the roots of the OT in the process. In doing so, I think that the saga weakens one of its strongest elements, its ties to the world of myth.

In any one of the myths Campbell puts forth, our hero is a good-hearted (if sometimes misguided) soul, who sooner or later embarks on a noble quest against wholly sinister enemies. Gilgamesh starts off arrogant (he's king of the world's finest empire; it comes with the territory), but he quickly comes around and takes off in search of something greater. King Arthur starts off as an innocent boy, matures into a just king, and even when the Round Table begins to crumble, he maintains his integrity, no matter the cost (his adversaries remain wicked and conniving through and through).

If, after publishing Morte d'Arthur, Thomas Malory then released a second volume, in which we find that Arthur was actually a mad tyrant, Merlin was engineering the kingdom's downfall from the start, and Mordred was a heroic rebel trying to set things right, what would be the point? The two stories, both completely at odds with each other, would cancel each other out.

Good versus evil. That's what the myths always come down to. Not this "lesser of two evils" business; that goes against everything Campbell ever taught.

The OT had volumes to say about the nature of good and evil. Is evil stronger? No. Quicker. Easier. It's so easy to be evil. It's hard to be good; the rewards aren't nearly so quick or so obvious--but they're definitely there, in the forms of love and genuine friendship.

There's truth to that, and the OT boils it down to its base elemental form, expressing it in ways that both children and adults can readily appreciate.

Now, with the PT, evil is just misunderstood, good is self-righteous--nothing jives with what SW used to say.

Moving on to the way your invisible forces alter the way people think: As a fantasy writer myself, I see this as a cop out. Back in the day, whenever I had a story element too convoluted to explain, my favorite excuse was "That's just the way the magic works."

That excuse wears thin like you wouldn't believe. Even if your story has its own themes and rules that don't apply in real life, those rules have to be logical and consistent for the story to work; if I write about a desert community with no apparent source of food, it's cheap to explain it with "they don't need to eat." In the case of SW, if Anakin risks his life repeatedly to help Padme and she does nothing in return, it's unconvincing to argue that "people don't do each other favors there," since that's exactly what he did.

Who controls these mystical forces that affect how people think? The writer does, and the Will of the Force (often employed in other stories as "fate" or "God") is just a smokescreen for any puppetry or deus ex machina the writer cares to employ.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Rhane, and I hope you've enjoyed reading mine.

 

I grow tired of saying this so it will be the lasst time.
What I think Anakin did or did not do isn't important. It's how Padme would view it that is important. I don't see any where in the story where anybody outside of the Jedi could see what Anakin did as anymore important than what Jar Jar did.
Yes, I think he saved her world!!!!!! See this this sentence? I'm saying that I saw him do the same thing you did!!!!!!! But I don't think Padme Amidala was in the theatre watching the movie with us. They can't look in on the movie like we can.

FROM PADME'S POINT OF VIEW Anakin risked his life in battle just like Jar Jar did. FROM PADME'S (AND THE REST OF NABOO'S) POINT OF VIEW her plan was the one thing that brought all the heroes together! FROM PADME'S POINT OF VIEW Qui Gon sacrificed his life for her world. FROM PADME'S POINT OF VIEW Jar Jar helped bring their people back together and then risked his life for that alliance. FROM PADME'S POINT OF VIEW several pilots died attacking the control ship that Anakin "accidently" destroyed.

Now if you have tropuble understanding that I'm looking at this from her point of view just remeber that Padme didn't watch the movie, you did. You know more than she does. You understand the Force, she doesn't. You know that Anakin saved her life, she thinks that she captured the Viceroy before the ship was destroyed. You know that Jar Jar barely did anything during the battle, she thinks that he led the Gungans to victory.

 

"I do happen to disagree--... with whether or not the direction George has taken is good for the saga.
That is something really worth debating. I like the new direction, almost for the same reason you don't.

"The OT was a fairy tale rooted in Campbellian mythology; there were definite heroes, definite villains, and very little in between.

The PT shifts both sides squarely into the middle, and breaks from the roots of the OT in the process. In doing so, I think that the saga weakens one of its strongest elements, its ties to the world of myth.

This is true, and it's sad. I first got into Star Wars by studying Campbell, and reading about myths and stories and how they are constructed. On the other hand, myths are just that: mythic. They are seperate from reality. They are about good vs. evil in a very cut and dry, black and white way. They exist to help us make sense of good and evil, since in reality good and evil are very complex. This is precisely why I like the new direction. I think the prequels are more realistic, and thus can be applied to everyday life (as allegorical or not) in more interesting ways than the originals can.


"The OT had volumes to say about the nature of good and evil. Is evil stronger? No. Quicker. Easier. It's so easy to be evil. It's hard to be good; the rewards aren't nearly so quick or so obvious--but they're definitely there, in the forms of love and genuine friendship.
There's truth to that, and the OT boils it down to its base elemental form"

Which is why the OT is so appealing, and has captivated for so long...but it's truth in base elemental form. It's truth that can be gleaned from countless myths, as Campbell says. I want more now. I want shades of grey. I want the prequel trilogy.

As for the mystical invisible forces - I agree it's a thin excuse, but I think George knows about it and will elaborate on it more in Episode III. If he doesn't, I may feel very differently about the prequels.

 

Let me elaborate on that last point a little bit more. I like all your thoughts Darth Geist, and it's good to see well-thought out reasons for how the OT and the PT differ.
The invisible forces controlling peoples actions: they are a convenient excuse. They are a writer's crutch. As you say, it's really easy for a writer of fantasy (which Star Wars is) to say "that's just how magic works." In this case, George could just say "That's how the force works." But that would be a cop-out. Or at least it would seem like one. But if he knows about these invisible forces, if he incorporates them into the story, eventually revealing and explaining them, at least to the audience, THEN it's not a cop-out or an excuse. This is what I am hoping for in Episode III. I think he can do it, and I think he's planning to do it. If he doesn't, then the prequels will feel, at least to me, too contrived.

 

Good thoughts, Rhane; I'll get back to you.

Prozac:

Even if the news of Anakin's victory in space never, ever reached Amidala at any point in the last ten years (and the evidence is against that --see below), she still witnessed the race firsthand, and was also there when he saved her life in the hangar. Again, no one ever asked Anakin for help, and he was under no obligation. That alone makes his contributions more noteworthy than most, and don't try to tell me she missed that too.

She was also there when Jar Jar made a complete fool of himself time and again; are you suggesting that she simply assumed he suddenly became a great warrior? Since you seem to be arguing that she's oblivious to everything outside her own line of sight, how would she know that he'd been made a general in the first place?

It's funny, but when R2-D2 saved the ship, the others saw fit to mention it to her. Amidala obviously likes to be informed of such things, and rewards those who help her; "Clean this droid; it deserves our gratitude," she says.

Padme knows full well that Anakin did much more for her than he ever had to. To say otherwise is to argue for argument's sake.

 

I'm under the impression the reason George had Shmi remain on Tatooine was because her and the result of her death have a lot to do with Anakin giving in to his anger and turning to the Dark Side.

~*~Bria

 

Well you know I went and saw AOTC again today on the spur of the moment.

Watto said Shmi was freed years ago and business is business eh?

Padme said nothing, but she had some interesting looks. It could be she went to the Council and pleaded Shmi's case some time when she returned to Coruscant or maybe even when they visited Naboo. After convincing the Jedi agree to help Shmi out and arrange for her to live free and comfortably where she is happy, married to Cliegg as a simple farmer. They still don't want Anakin to be attached, so they tell him she's fine but don't tell him what they did.

If they told him, he'd press the issue of going to see her. I'm sure Obi-Wan promises Anakin that once he becomes a Jedi, he can visit her to show his accomplishment. You know Anakin, he wants to see his mother, but if Obi-Wan and the Jedi convinced him it would be better to see her ONCE he is a Jedi. Then he would have something to show her. It's a goal to work towards.

So Anakin stops pressing the matter. Until he begans to have dreams... but then that's the same time he gets his first assignment, and we all now how that turned out.

Now yes this is all behind the scenes and speculation at its finest. But it COULD surface in Episode III.

Darth Sidious reveals to Anakin in a heated moment that the Jedi are responsible for Shmi's death because they had her relocated.

Yoda or Obi-Wan, or both would say yes they helped her and they did it for good. Even Padme agreed it was a good idea.

Then Anakin fumes. "Padme. Why didn't she tell me?" Sound familiar? "Ben. Why didn't you tell me."

Padme didn't tell him when they were on Tatooine because at that point he would have been like, "Why didn't you tell me earlier? Why didn't Obi-Wan tell me?" And he would get mad. No, better for him to figure it out on his own. She knew he was already upset with Obi-Wan to a degree. Maybe this is why she puts on that sad face during the Anakin/Watto scene. It's that same sad face she has when she's calling for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Val in TPM. You know somethings up when she has that face.

And it's not like she knew Shmi was in danger. All she knew was Anakin was dreaming about her and thought she might need him.

Ok maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist (to some degree, I don't do the Naboo = Dagobah crap) but I think this theory at least has merit. Besides it knocks out at least two birds with one stone, adding more fuel to the fire for both Anakin and Owen in Episode III for a dislike in how the Jedi handle things and meddle too much.

We'll see.

 

My take on this is that since Watto said that he sold Shmi [watto's raspy voice]"years ago"[/watto's raspy voice], she was probably sold not too long after Anakin left Tatooine in TPM. I'd say about four or five years after - max. So she was not just hanging around for 10 years as a slave. The first few years, Anakin was in intense training to be a Jedi. He wasn't concentrating on his mother so much. At first he was, but probably not too long after TPM his mind was really pre-occupied.

So, those first few years of intense training go by, and then Shmi gets sold to a nice guy(Cliegg Lars). She gets freed. They get married. She has a happy life.

So since she wasn't a slave for too long after Anakin left, and Anakin was training hard for 10 years, Anakin would've never sensed that much was wrong since Shmi went on to live a good life.

Now, why didn't anyone bother to check up on her? I'm assuming that the Jedi Council asked everyone that knew about her not to.

Oh, and it's all the will of the force too.

 

Darth Geist,

A mythological motif is that oversights and neglect, even on seemingly insignificant matters, can have disastrous consequences. I am reminded of the thirteenth wise woman or fairy who was not invited to the christening of Sleeping Beauty. In vengeance for the insult, that uninvited guest cursed the princess to death.

Yes, Shmi was neglected by Padme, and by Naboo. The fate of Shmi is an intentional irony. The fate of one seemingly insignificant woman, one ?pathetic lifeform? is the fate of billions and the fate of a planet (Alderaan). In turn, Padme, like Shmi will be all but forgotten. She who was queen doesn?t even have a name in the OT.

I enjoy reading your posts and I know you from the Mythology of AOTC thread too.
Nevertheless, I think that the ambiguity of the PT is not out of step with Joseph Campbell view. Rather, it is an example of the failed hero path, ?the refusal of the call? as Campbell put it. GL?s twist on that archetype is showing a failed hero who rejects years of sin and finally does one very important thing right. Instead of a cardboard two-dimensional villain behind a mask, the PT shows that the path to the ultimate evil of Vader starts in small, literally baby steps and can be based upon otherwise noble affections, such as a parent-child bond.

Have you ever seen the episode of ?The Power of Myth? where Campbell and Bill Moyers discuss Star Wars and Darth Vader? Campbell?s description of the path to Vader anticipates the PT. The PT, as the opening sequence of AOTC makes clear, turns everything in SW on its head.

 

"Where in the movie does Anakin soley, all by himself, with no help save the entire planet? He doesn't at least no more than Jar Jar did, and never does anyone in the movie act like he does."


He blew up the federation ship, which ended the battle, inspite of jarjars and amidala success,

sort of like how what happens in the emperors throne room is irrelevant to the galactic conflict since lando would have succeeded in blowing up the deathstar anyways

 

Anakin was "roped" into helping at Naboo. He was told to stay seated in the N-1 until Qui-gon came back for him. The destruction of the control ship was unintentional and not pre-planned. Ten years later, he is being told to guard her life by the Jedi Council. While he will do it gladly, he is also doing his duty regardless. In fact, he appearently has no hostile feelings towards her not doing anything.

Anakin: "I promise that I will become a Jedi and come back for you."

He said this in front of Qui-gon and Shmi. I think he had planned to go back as he said, once he passed the trials. Anakin was just a boy who helped out. She did care for him, but she also cared for her people as well. She had to choose between them and she choose her people. "The needs of the many, outweight the needs of the few....or the one." The flipside of this is that Leia has to choose between staying with Alliance and to prepare for future assults, or go after the man she loves. She chooses the latter.

Lucas is not saying that the Empire isn't entirely evil. What he is saying is that the Republic is corrupt and on it's dying legs. It needed major overhauls and Palpatine just hurried it's destruction along, promising a quick turnabout, yet the cure is far worse than the disease.

 

Great question but I think they didn't rush back to save Anakin's mom was becaue its a movie and stuff like that would of ruined the story. Anyways I know a great new web site that everyone should check out..

www.The59.com its a great web site not as great as a SW one but its still pretty good.

 

There is a very simple reason why Naboo didn't pitch in and reqard Anakin: after the battle, he was a member of the Jedi Order. Jedi do not receive rewards for doing their jobs. It's the same reason that police aren't supposed to be given gifts from a store they just foiled a robbery of.