The Greatest Lightsaber Duelist

Let me fix that for ya.....

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Mace Windu
3. Darth Sidious
4. Lord Kas'im
5. Yoda
6. Darth Tyranus
7. Darth Vader
8. Exar Kun
9. Darth Maul
10. Revan

......there ya go

 

Leia's no slouch in dueling either. She can hold her own in most cases, but she's not in top form yet..

 

Still skipping the guy that easily fended off an enraged, Dark-Side riddled, Veteran-of-the-Sith-Wars Jedi Master without being able to touch the Force at all... (Ulic Qel-Droma)

But anyway, Dooku really should be higher on some of these lists (more pointedly the ones he's not on at all). He was astoundingly good, and among the Jedi seemed to be ranked right up there with Mace Windu and Yoda in terms of Lightsaber skill (worth noting that for all Yoda's twirling and hopping around like the Tasmanian Devil, he doesn't overcome Dooku's defenses, nor does he seem to think that he's going to be able to overpower him with the Force). Dooku might not have invented his own lightsaber form like Mace Windu, but it seems like he picked up an old, rarely-used form, dusted it off, and took it to new heights, which is just as impressive in its' own way.

But I'm an unabashed Dooku fan. I think he really gets short shrift due to the poor way he was handled in the movies.

 

That's true rumsmuggler, but I doubt that she could hold her own in a sustained battle with the top ranking duelist for very long. Leia is full of surprises though..

 

I agree. I think that Obi-Wan isn't one of the greatest duelists as far as technique and power are considered. But he's one of the greatest in terms of strategy and brains.

I think he was actually a perfect match to take down Anakin in RotS. Anakin was all about Form V - throttling your opponent; but Obi-Wan stayed on the defensive, letting Anakin wear himself down, waiting until he made a mistake with his aggression. He didn't try to win; he waited for Anakin to lose.

 

Luke (Defeats Palpatin and countless others)
Mace (Defeated Palpatin but was killed/defeated by Anakin)
Palpatine (Defeated Luke,Defeated Yoda, Defeated 6 of 7 Jedi masters at once)
Jacen (Trained by Luke, Defeated hundreds of Vong, Went toe to toe against Luke and killed Mara)
Yoda (Nuff-said)
Anakin/Vader- (Defeated Luke, Defeated Doku, And killed countless jedi/ Darksiders)
Doku (Held his own against Yoda, Anakin and Obi-wan, and even Grievous)
Obi-wan (Defeated Anakin, Defeated Maul (granted it was lucky),Defeated Hett)
Maul (Trained killing machine)
(Tulak Hord- Until I see him in action)
Ulic Qel-Droma (as stated above held his own with out the use of the force)
Revan/ Jedi Exile
Exar Kun
Katarn
Bane

 

My List is:
1)Luke(I think in Legacy he has shown us true Mastery)
2)Mace(Beat Palps,Created Vaapad)
3)Yoda(I put he over Palps cause Palps wanted to run from Yoda instead of fighting him in his office.)
4)Palpatine(Near equal to Yoda.I think his true power is manipulation.)
5)Obi-Wan(Defeated Anakin,Master Defense,Dooku used the force not a lightsaber on Obi-Wan in ROTS)
6)Anakin(Defeated Dooku and Defeated alot of Jedi in the Temple)
7)Dooku(Defeated Obi-Wan&Anakin in AOTC..Master of Form II)
8)Maul(Defeated Qui-Gon and I think out dueled Obi-Wan)
9)Qui-Gon(Was said to be one of the greatest lightsaber master of his time)
10)Exar-Kun(He was just Bad to the Bone)

 

1. Luke - He's beaten some of the toughest warriors there ever has been
2. Caedus - Lets face it, he's gone toe to toe with Luke but never beat him, so he's #2
3. Mace Windu - Created Vaapad, and fought some tough guys
4. Yoda - He was Grand Master for a reason.
5. Obi-Wan - The "negotiator" beat a few memorable enemies.
6. Anakin Skywalker - Beat some memorable people and was a solid fighter.
7. Mara Jade Skywalker - Went toe to toe with Caedus but sadly lost.
8. Leia Organa Solo - While she seems the quiet, negotiating type, she's never afraid to scrap it.
9. Sidious - anyone who can take on some of the greatest swordsman of the Old Jedi Order AND Yoda AND STILL LIVE is a pretty good fighter.
10. Darth Bane - shown his power a few times in his novels.

 

The problem with this list (and several others) is that A+B doesn't always equal C when it comes to fighting skills.

Anakin beats Dooku, but is defeated by Obi-Wan, yet Obi-Wan got trounced by Dooku both times that they fought. So is Obi-Wan a better duellist than Dooku because he defeated the one that defeated Dooku? No, it doesn't work that way. It's almost more of a "rock paper scissors" sort of scenario in many cases (particularly when it comes to fighting styles). Anakin = Rock, Dooku = Scissors, Obi-Wan = Paper.

Caedus "held his own" against Luke, but Luke may well have not been going all-out against him, or perhaps their particular fighting styles happen to be a good match against each other. Luke had plenty of distractions at the time, that's for sure. By comparison, Mara pretty much had Caedus on the run until he resorted to (non-duelling) tricks to kill her/save his own skin. Caedus might edge into the lower half of the list based on his showing against several impressive opponents (especially Kyle Katarn), but number 2? Not even close. He might (heavy emphasis on might) be the second-best in the galaxy as of LotF's timeframe, but if that's the case I'd say there's a HUGE gulf between #1 and #2.

Leia hasn't defeated anyone of exceptional duelling skill, to my knowledge. She's gotten much better than she used to be, but I don't see her anywhere near the "top 10 of all time." She might be able to get there on "Skywalker class potential" but that seems to have allowed her to greatly increase her proficiency as a Jedi late in life more than anything else.

 

I don't understand that point, Mara used "non-dueling tricks" to get him into that situation. She had to use hit and run tactics to cripple him before she even fought him, and still she was beaten. But I do agree with your thoughts on Leia, she really hasen't defeated anyone notable.

 

Actually if I remember correctly Luke was greatly impressed with Jacen and even sneaked up on him. Luke had went all out against Jacen because he didn't want Ben to kill him.

As for Mara I believe she had stated that she wouldn't be able to attack him in a normal lightsaber duel because he would crush her if that was the case.

 

Owen Lars defeated the cyborg Darth Maul, so does he count?

I'd also like to add Tarfang to the list. I don't think even Luke during his highest point of power in TUF could have defeated the spinning ewok with a blade. "Little Killer" is truly unstoppable with a lightsaber, and there's a pile of dead killiks to prove it.

Seriously though, I think Assaj Ventress ranks pretty high on the list. She's not on par with Windu, Skywalker or Dooku; however, many padawans and knights fell to her blade during the clone wars. For a half-trained Jedi, that's quite a feat. She would most likely rank among Jedi Masters in terms of lightsaber combat.

Raskta Lsu and Sarro Xaj from ROT should also be mentioned. Despite our limited knowledge of these two, they were the greatest duelist of the Ruusan era and were more than a match for the Sith Lords Bane and Zannah.

 

Ventress did seem to be extremely gifted in lightsaber combat. She gave both Anakin and Obi-Wan some serious contests, held her own against Windu (albeit briefly), and seemed to give Dooku a not-inconsiderable contest when it came strictly to blade-to-blade combat (he pulled out the lightning and TK to take her down). Conversely, I believe she was defeated by Grievous (though I could be wrong, I haven't read the story explaining how Grievous "wins" his command of the droid armies over Ventress and Durge...it might not have been a duel per se).

Sora Bulq is another that might be worth mentioning. He was one of three Jedi we know of in the Prequel era to be proficient in Vaapad, though he fell to its' darker side. Still, he also acquitted himself well against Mace Windu. I probably wouldn't put him on the list though, because he eventually fell to Quinlan Vos.

Y'know, rather than breaking it into a hard "list" I tend to prefer groupings or tiers. It (to my mind) accounts for a little more of the intangibles that make comparisons like this really hard to figure out. Admittedly, there's always debate for people to move up and down "tiers."

Lightsaber Legends (Those whose reputation carries well past their death, or who advanced the overall art of Lightsaber Combat, Were perhaps the greatest practicioners ever of a given form, or were just That Darn Good (tm)):

Luke Skywalker - Revived the art of Lightsaber Combat with the New Jedi Order, A Lightsaber prodigy that could learn simply through observation/fighting against someone using that form)

Mace Windu - Refined Form VII Lightsaber Combat into his own sub-form, Vaapad. Defeated Darth Sidious in a straight fight

Yoda - Kind of self-explanatory, I think...he was practically the embodiment of the post-Ruusan Jedi Order in every way

Count Dooku - Was considered equal and possibly superior to Mace Windu as a duellist before leaving the Jedi Order (admittedly, Mace had 10 years to refine his craft before they met again). Was so good at Form II that he was able to transcend its' traditional limitations and take on multiple opponents using only his chosen style.

Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader - Tailored Djem So to compensate for the considerable limitations of his cybernetic form. Evidenced some of the same "learn by observation" talents as his son (see Episode II novelization), and pretty much took down all comers for 20 or so years, despite being in a walking Iron Lung and having had his potential with the Force considerably reduced because of it.

Darth Sidious (Arguable, might be one tier lower) - The last true master of the Banite Order's way of combat (in the sense that he was the last that was trained since birth in its' version of the "Jedi Arts").

Kol Skywalker (Arguable based on lack of direct evidence) - He seemed to take down a rather huge chunk of Sith in his last stand, overcome only by overwhelming numbers.

Tulak Hord (Arguable based on lack of direct evidence) - A literal example of a "Lightsaber Legend." His reputation lasted well beyond his death.

Lightsaber Prodigies (Those that are among the greatest of their particular era, not counting any "legends" that might be lurking about, those that demonstrate unusual talent with a Lightsaber):

Darth Revan - Waded through hordes of Mandalorians, Jedi, and Sith alike (and pretty much anyone else that got in his way).

The Exile - See Above, possibly minus the Jedi.

(Both Revan and the Exile might qualify for "Legendary" status, but given the different ways each character can be developed within the game, it's uncertain whether lightsaber combat was one of their primary areas of expertise)

Asajj Ventress - D

 

Kreia ought to be on anyones list of lightsaber masters. Telekinetic lightsaber combat, anyone?:



http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Levitating_lightsabers.jpg

 

I might be willing to give her "master" status, but given how easily I trounced her, I'm not sure how competent we can really say she was with the whole "levitating lightsabers" bit.

 

I think that it's somewhat unfair (and won't necessarily produce very good results, either) to try to compare the greatest duelists from among the different eras. We know so little about how fighting styles and prowess measure up between generations, much less when you have centuries or millennia of empty time between eras, that it is hard to logically justify saying that Revan is a better duelist than Jacen, or that Krayt is better than Obi-Wan.

Perhaps it would be better to select a "greatest lightsaber duelist of a generation/era" instead of trying to make imperfect comparisons between radically different time periods. I would posit that any duelist from Tulak Hord's era would automatically qualify for the top spot, followed by the NJO, then Revan's era, then Kun's era, then the OJO, but I have just as little evidence to support that (IMHO I have slightly more evidence, but that's neither here nor there) as anyone who would argue for the exact opposite arrangement, and place Mace and Obi-Wan at the top of the charts.

For the sake of reason and sanity, I propose splitting the discussion into eras, and not trying to measure one generation against the next.

 

Yeah, but I still maintain Kreia's whole "blah blah blah like children playing with toys blah blah" bit is basically just a case of an inflated view of "better days" in the past.

The Force didn't completely change in the years since (that we know of), the physical capabilities of the humanoid form didn't change in the meantime, and there's no evidence that there was a complete eradication of either Jedi or Sith in the interim, so it seems to me that there's no logical reason for the "combat arts" to have degraded to the degree Kreia claims.

Actually, you know what Tulak Hord's era really sounds like to me? The period of time in which Makashi (Form II) was most in favor among the Jedi/Sith. That'd leave the impression of being a "golden age of lightsaber duelling" I'd think.

Otherwise though, I think "best of an era" lists would also be a good way to break it down, because you're right, trying to compare these fighters across eras is extremely difficult.

 

I agree to some extent but I don't think the example you used is as apt as it first appears.

Anakin vs Obi-Wan was one on one.

"Anakin vs Dooku" was two on one for the vast majority and the victory isn't all Anakin's.

Had the duel been Anakin vs Dooku from the start, I think the latter would have probably emerged triumphant. As it stands, there are a number of factors that work in Anakin's favour in regards to his defeating Dooku.

1) Tyranus had been worn down by both himself and Obi-Wan
2) Tyranus had expended a fair portion of his own energy having to take out Obi-Wan
3) Tyranus was forbidden from killing Anakin Skywalker

Now, certainly, (regarding factor 3) by the last portion of the duel, I don't think Dooku could have killed Anakin even had he wanted to. Had he gone into the duel straight off the bat with the intention of "taking out both Anakin and Obi-Wan", however, I think his chances of coming out on top even in a 2vs1 confrontation would have been raised considerably.

Agreed. I especially like the Makashi point.

 

Very valid points, all. But since I think Dooku is underrated at times, I'm inclined to agree anyway. Still, the general concensus tends to be that "Anakin defeated Dooku" and even the novelization seems to strongly imply that Anakin's Djem So is well-suited to counter Dooku's Makashi, which is kind of what I was driving at with the Rock/Paper/Scissors analogy.

Also makes me believe Kreia may have been primarily a Makashi practicioner (at least when she had both hands). If Dooku's any indication, its' users seem to have quite a superiority complex when it comes to their fighting style...particularly if they fall to the Dark Side.

 

Dooku is underrated however, so I think your inclination is a good one.

Granted. It's just not a consensus I agree with... well, not completely, anyway.

True. Though it could be argued that the reason Dooku's Makashi was unable to generate enough power to meet Anakin's Djem So head on wasn't due to any fault of the style, but down to the Sith Lord having exhausted himself already having taken out the third most formidable duelist in the Jedi Order.

Hmm. Not a bad thought at all. Doesn't Makashi utilise a lot of one handed strikes anyway?

Heh, all too true.

 

Possibly, though it's worth noting that Dooku doesn't take Obi-Wan out with swordsmanship skills.

Indeed it does. Dooku certainly seemed to think it would be a perfectly valid style to use if one only had one hand to use. Most of the other sources on the style seem to indicate that it's largely a one-handed style, as well. Though oddly enough Dooku seems to be two-handed as often as he's one-handed when duelling. But of course Nic Gilliard didn't take "Lightsaber combat forms" into account when doing the choreography, so....

 

The Force is the most important aspect of any Jedi duel, however, since it ties into everything they do. Dooku uses the Force to enhance his physical capabilities... if he's "spent" too much in blasting through Obi-Wan's defences, those physical abilities are going to suffer.

Well, I imagine that's how it works anyway, and that's what I was getting it.

Ah, good, I thought so.

Yeah.

I'm really annoyed that they rarely (if ever) had Dooku, well, taking advantage of his curved hilt. His grip was far too high. I'd have liked to have seen some proper fencing, too.

 

Pants. Double post.

 

Something like this?:

circa 7000 BBY-4800 BBY: The Tulak Hord era. Lightsabers during this time had to operate with a cord attached to an external battery pack, so certain techniques (saber throw, lightsaber levitation, ect) would not be known. Kreia claimed that Tulak Hord was the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith from this era.

4800 BBY-3951 BBY: The KOTOR era. Modern lightsabers come into use. All 7 Forms are known and practiced. Masters such as Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Revan, Darth Sion, The Exile, and Kreia live during this time.

3951 BBY-2000 BBY: an era of peace, during which the Sith vanish and the Jedi rebuild.

2000 BBY-990 BBY: The New Sith Wars era. Lightsaber masters from this time include Kas'im, Raskta Lsu, and Darth Bane.

990 BBY-19 BBY: The Prequel era: This is where the Prequel Trilogy Jedi and Sith should go. Palpatine, Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Cin Drallig, Count Dooku, General Greivous, ect all belong here.

19 BBY-40 ABY Rebellion/New Republic/Galactic Alliance era. Luke, Vader, Kyle Katarn, Darth Caedus, Jaden Korr, ect all live during this time.

40 ABY-137 ABY: Legacy era. Cade Skywalker, Darth Krayt, Shado Vao, ect live in this time.

 

Luke was never that powerful, his training began at a much later time in life than any other Jedi's, the only reason he even matched Palpatine was because Palpatine's body was deteriorating and because he learned not just the lightside, but the Dark Side too, which was why Count Dooku was a better lightsaber duelist than Mace Windu.

In episode V Luke literally didn't believe in the force, and that was why he failed. The Jedi order never had higher tiers like Mace, Anakin, Yoda and Count Dooku ever again, most forms of lightsaber combat were only left in holocrons, which were destroyed by the 501st and Darth Vader.

The peek of power for the Jedi wasn't too long, the forms of lightsaber combat grew over the years, it was in episode III that the Jedi Council reached its peek of power, this was the time of the greatest lightsaber duelists. Anakin Skywalker and Yoda were unbelievably powerful. One of them was the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time.

Yoda had power, but not as much as Anakin, Anakin mastered leverage, Yoda mastered agility. Anakin could use virtually anyone's attack against them. With the aid of a single clone legion, the 501st, Anakin killed hundreds of Jedi knights that were almost all better than Luke in ROTJ.

Yoda showed his power and lightsaber skill time and time again, killing tens of the 501st, besting Palpatine in lightsaber combat, forcing him to use his Lighting. But Yoda was old in Episode III, maybe ten years before the Phantom Menace, Yoda was the greatest of all Jedi in lightsaber combat, even Anakin.