"The greatest treasure of the Sith" [Darth Vader, or, maybe the Ewok is just slow...?]

"A magnificent jewel-box, created to protect and exhibit the greatest treasure of the Sith"; I've always liked that line of Stover's describing Vader's armour, but I've sometimes felt it strikes a note that's not quite the one I would have anticipated... perhaps outside the Ewok range of hearing...

Now, bizarrely, thanks in part to early spoilers for DL:TRoDV, but more directly through a bizarre side-effect of trying to make sense of Luke and Sedriss' relative Imperial ranks in the Dark Empire comics, I think I've worked it out...

Palpatine didn't want Anakin Skywalker for his power and capabilities and his status as the Chosen One, the great hope of both Darth Plagueis and the Jedi Order...

He wanted to turn him into a psychopathic murderer, an amoral military commander, someone with neither insight nor subtlety nor genuine grace...

And then he wanted to take his physical power, his strength, and his body away...

And then, he let him do what he'd always wanted to do - try to restore order to the Galaxy, an order that never truly existed; stumbling around as a blunt instrument... a sick, crippled, useless thing, a trophy and a slave, a crude, clumsy instrument of terror, made more terrible by his trying so terriby hard - still - to do the right thing...

It's not about ruling the Galaxy at all - Palpatine doesn't really care; it's all about transforming the Chosen One into a living sculpture of pain, vivisected flesh, and rusted metal... that can walk to heel, and occasionally be swung as a very, very blunt hammer to smash eggshells...

... and is, in the final analysis, just a Jedi Knight - crass, human, ignorant and incompetent, like all the rest.

Was it just me that missed this?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Interesting, nice POV

So what you mean is that Palpatine never actually tought of Vader as his apprentcie but more like his last movement against the Jedi, destroying the greatest one(the hero of the Jedi in the old republic) in a mockery of what he was early. And for everyone to see.

Thus who was palpatine apprentince then?? Mara??

 

No one. He didn't want or need one, as far as he was concerned (at least if we're following this train of thought). He just needed tools.

I guess in this view, then, Thrawn, you're saying that doing that to Anakin was the last, greatest Revenge of the Sith? Hmm... interesting thought.

He was going to live forever. Why would he need an apprentice? Why would he risk having someone replace him when he knew that he could live forever? And to be honest, if he hadn't just overlooked the Rebellion, he might well have been right... *shudders*

- Keralys

 

This isn't your usual far stretch Ewok. It's pretty clear that the Emperor wanted Vader as a attack dog. He had conquered death and had no intention of creating an apprentice powerful enough to kill him the same way he killed Plagiues. He knew Anakin was immensely powerful in the force, powerful enough to threaten him if he wasn't knocked down a notch by a little lava bath. Palpatine did away with the rule of two by exposing himself to the galaxy and destroying the Jedi order. There was no need for the master apprentice rule so Vader was intended to be the first of many in Palpatine's Brotherhood of Darkness.

Where is the conspiracy thoery, McEwok?


-The Rebel Gungan

 

Master-Anakin-Solo: Interesting, nice POV

Thanks.

So what you mean is that Palpatine never actually tought of Vader as his apprentcie but more like his last movement against the Jedi, destroying the greatest one(the hero of the Jedi in the old republic) in a mockery of what he was early. And for everyone to see.

Thus who was palpatine apprentince then?? Mara??



No, Vader is his Apprentice, but Palpatine has already shown, in different ways with both Maul and Dooku, that he has very little real regard for his Apprentices... look beyond the theory to the practice?

Keralys: No one. He didn't want or need one, as far as he was concerned (at least if we're following this train of thought). He just needed tools.

Yes, FACPOV - see above; he definately isn't training a successor, is he...?

I guess in this view, then, Thrawn, you're saying that doing that to Anakin was the last, greatest Revenge of the Sith? Hmm... interesting thought.

Nicely put - and yes, that's it exactly. The revenge of the Sith as an Order is to make the Jedi Chosen One a Sith slave, with the mindset of a psychopathic killer and the body of a crippled, shackled monster; the revenge of Darth Sidious as an individual Sith is probably to do all that with Plagueis' prize, his greatest achievement...

He was going to live forever. Why would he need an apprentice? Why would he risk having someone replace him when he knew that he could live forever? And to be honest, if he hadn't just overlooked the Rebellion, he might well have been right... *shudders*

Vader and Yoda both suggested Luke and Leia are a threat to Palpatine... but perhaps he simply couldn't resist... he sees the chance to do the same thing, all over again...

Jello: It sounds feasible.

Hmm?

Ackbar: This isn't your usual far stretch Ewok. It's pretty clear that the Emperor wanted Vader as a attack dog. He had conquered death and had no intention of creating an apprentice powerful enough to kill him the same way he killed Plagiues. He knew Anakin was immensely powerful in the force, powerful enough to threaten him if he wasn't knocked down a notch by a little lava bath. Palpatine did away with the rule of two by exposing himself to the galaxy and destroying the Jedi order. There was no need for the master apprentice rule so Vader was intended to be the first of many in Palpatine's Brotherhood of Darkness.

Where is the conspiracy thoery, McEwok?

I don't think Vader is Palpatine's "attack dog", in any fundamental way. Anakin certainly believes in "his Empire" - in RotS, he sees Palpatine as a means to his own end, and he may even deliberately play off the Jedi against the Sith to see who wins, planning to use the more powerful as his vehicle to rule the Galaxy, and thinking that he's in control of the situation...

Palpatine just gets off on the fact that little orphan Anni has become a mass-murderer through - as he thinks, at least - his manipulation... but I doubt that Palpatine has any illusion that what Vader is doing serves to maintain or restore order... it's all for Siths and giggles, if you'll excuse the phrase - if anything, he's usuing Vader and the Empire as the means to a far more savage, anarchic end - look at Dark Empire as the next phase, as what he's really using Vader, Tarkin and the Death Star to build...

Whch is assuming, of course, that Palpatine is sane enough to have a truly consistent vision or endgame, which personally, I doubt... I also wonder if he didn't actually die in the duel with Windu in the middle of Revenge of the Sith, and just... not realise...



- The Imperial Ewok

 

So we can think that just as Palpatine had Maul and Dooku he decides to continue his "teachings", to their so called apprentinces so long while keeping knowledge of his dark way hidden so they would not be so strong to kill him and at the same time they would need him.

I also think then that when Palpatine realize the existance of Luke he tried to do the same as he did with Vader.

 

I don't think it was about destroying the Chosen One. Why would the Sith work that hard to destroy what they had studied and labored so to create?

I tend to think the "destruction" was really simply what was necessary to perfect him. He knew Skywalker could be the perfect Sith. He knew because that was how his master had designed him, before Palpatine murdered him. But Palpatine screwed up. He was playing a dangegrous game in manipulating Anakin's feelings with regards to Padmé. And maybe, if he'd done it a little more elegantly, he could have turned Anakin's obsessive love to hate. He was toying with the idea, when he started trying to manipulate Padmé into the rolel of his personal enemy, and setting up a mistrust between her and Anakin. And it almost worked, when Anakin turned on her on Mustafar. (A friend and I came up with another way that Palpatine could have turned Anakin against Padmé and accomplished his goal of perfecting Anakin, but I'm saving that for a fan fic I think.)

Palpatine, however, didn't quite manage it. It was too quick and easy to use Padmé, and Anakin's ove for her, as the turning point for the whole plan. He didn't get the groundwork properly laid, so that when it was all over, Anakin still loved Padmé. This actually helped Palpatine short-term; he got a reprieve in the form of Padmé's death, and Anakin's self-hatred increased even more. But he didn't count on Padmé's survivng, in the form of the twins. The existence of those children took countless years of Sith planning and molding, across at least two (and probably more) generations of masters, and turned them back into that obsessive lover who died on Mustafar. This crucial blunder was the very thing that destroyed the Sith.

But that was all a mistake. The plans, I think, were sound. The Sith make no pretentions of emotionless. Their hatred gives them power. The breaking of Anakin Skywalker was designed to make him hate everything: the galaxy, his master, himself. This hatred was necessary to make the perfect Sith, and it was that surviving love that proved the crack. There's no doubt in my mind, though, that "the treasure of the Sith" was what Anakin was meant to be. Palpatine as good as says it in Sith: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." The thing is, I think, Palpatine is having second thoughts. He realizes that a Sith of this power would necessarily destroy him. Maybe Anakin's personal obsession with death was rubbing off, or maybe Palpatine just shared this thought; we know that, unable to unlock his master's secret and stop death itsellf, and perhaps fearful that even if he did uncover the secret someone could still kill him, as he still killed his master, he experimented heavily with other methods of preserving his life, settling upon the clones idea. But a Sith of the caliber Anakin might have become could surely have prevented that. I think Palpatine also sacrificed all the careful plans once he realized fully what the super-Sith was going to mean for him, and that the weak Darth Vader the OT shows us is partly the product of Palpatine's scaling back in order to save his life. But I still think perfection was what was originally intended by the plan, and even by Palpatine himself before he got stuck on this notion of immortality.

-Paul

 

Master-Anakin-Solo: So we can think that just as Palpatine had Maul and Dooku he decides to continue his "teachings", to their so called apprentinces so long while keeping knowledge of his dark way hidden so they would not be so strong to kill him and at the same time they would need him.

I also think then that when Palpatine realize the existance of Luke he tried to do the same as he did with Vader.

Yes! That's it exactly!!

d_p: I don't think it was about destroying the Chosen One. Why would the Sith work that hard to destroy what they had studied and labored so to create?

Palpatine isn't Plagueis, though... and we don't even know if Plagueis really created Anakin to be an über-Force-user, or simply a lure to draw the Jedi into a trap...

You raise a good point on Vader's self-hate (the Star Wars Tales Vader vs. Maul duel is a superb articulation of this)... there's perhaps more than one reading that works here, but I'm not convinced that this isn't a form of crippling in itself - it makes him strong, but also weak...

Palpatine as good as says it in Sith: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." The thing is, I think, Palpatine is having second thoughts. He realizes that a Sith of this power would necessarily destroy him.

Exactly - though potentially, what Palpatine is saying is threatening Yoda with the danger of Anakin; doesn't mean he plans to leave him as he is - in fact, it might suggest the opposite...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I agree with most of what darth_paul stated: Palpatine used Anakin's emotions and personal attachments to bind Anakin to the Sith. But I don't think Palpatine used Vader's armor and injuries to keep him in check. If anything, the armor amplifies the qualities Palpatine wants Vader to show the galaxy: his strength, his intimidation, his sheer brute power. Vader was always meant to be Palpatine's chainsaw....he keeps the scalpels (i.e Emperor's Hand) secret from the galaxy...

If anything, Vader is an emotionally crippled monster, not a physically crippled one. And that makes him the perfect apprentice for Palpatine's needs.

And, after conquering the Republic, binding the Chosen One to his service, and destroying the Jedi Order, I think Palps feels that nothing can touch him. What can anyone do to threaten him...throw farmboys from Tatooine at him?...

 

Except that he is physically crippled by the suit and armor. He may eventually overcome that, but [Dark Lord SPOILER:] Dark Lord makes it pretty clear that the suit is terribly built - and the only reason for that can be that the Emperor wants him handicapped - he now has trouble even with a run-of-the-mill Jedi, because he's so hindered by it.

Palpatine wanted a crippled Chosen One for a lot or reasons - to keep him from being a threat, to channel his energy how he wanted it channeled, to be his final revenge against both the Sith and his master Plageuis.

- Keralys

 

Very good. Makes Palpitine all the more sinister. I love it!

 

Methinks Ol' Palpy and the Vong would've gotten along even better than I thought...

A very interesting theory, McEwok. An extremely plausible, IMHO. Palpatine's track recaord has been corrupting and twisting symbols of good and right. We see in Krytos trap what he does with the Jedi portion of the Galatic Museu. We have the theory of why he has his Star Destroyers named as he did in Starfighters of Adumar. This is a man (and I use the term loosely) whom loves to inflict pain as much as possible. Fear, mistrust and deception are his weapons. I do think Palpatine did have a concern for Vader hence rushing off to Mustafar to save Ani's crispy-fried butt; but not as his apprentice, as his masterpiece. And it works both ways. If Plagueis created Ani, then not only was he trashing the Jedi Order usig one of the main propehcies, but he was also destroying the work of his late Master. If Ani was truly a child of the Force, then he's violated its Will, or so he may believe.

Once he has destroyed the Republic without anyone noticing, turned the Jedi Order into traitors to be feared and reviled, made the Chosen One a twisted mockery of himself to further his own ends, AND defied the Will of the Force...

What the stang do you do for an encore?

 

Go mad and literally try to blow up the galaxy, basically... there's not much left.

Which, I suppose, provides an alternative to the idea that as "just a clone" or "the travel across space maddened him," he was unable to perform.

He just didn't care anymore. He'd done what he wanted to do. He'd destroyed everything that everyone who opposed him had thrown at him, until the very end. And by that point, he was getting tired of waiting for stuff to fall in line with his supposed grand scheme anyway. Basic, final response:

"Eh, blow 'em all to smithereens."

At least, that's kind of my take on DE Palpy... maddened not by the other factors that have been suggested, but that there's no one left to spite, nothing left to corrupt and destroy. The NR was easy fodder for him; he proved that pretty conclusively. And he was also actually stronger than he had been before.

He was just... different.

Because he no longer cared about corrupting things - he'd already done that to everything worth doing it to: democracy, the Jedi, the Chosen One, the galaxy itself. You can see that indelible print even by the time of the NJO - nothing ever works quite right after Palpatine touches it... So, bored with that, he decided to just annihilate everyone and everything. Galaxy Gun, anyone?

- Keralys

 

I love this theory. It's the last thing I expected from McEwok -- a theory that makes absolute, perfect sense. Palpatine was all about corrupting and subverting everything he could. Corrupting Anakin, physically and emotionally torturing him -- it's his perfect revenge, and it adds so much more to Vader and the Emperor's relationship.

 

I always figured Palpatine put Vader in the suit to keep him on a short leash; Palpatine to me was the ultimate expression of his lesson that "All who have power fear to lose it". My interpretation of RotS is that Palpatine did indeed learn all the knowledge of Darth Plagueis, such as how to sustain or create life, and he blatantly lied to Anakin/Vader about his abilities; I can't take credit for this, but somebody pointed out long ago that when Palpatine arrives on Mustafar and find's Vader's charred remains he touches his forehead in the same way that Kenobi did to Luke in Episode IV, when Luke was seemingly killed by the Tusken Raiders. I interpreted the Palpatine touch as being him using his powers to restore life to Lord Vader. Palpatine knew that if he told Vader all of his secrets that Vader would most likely kill the Emperor, as treachery is the path of the Sith, and because that's what Palpatine himself had done to his own master; we see Anakin say that he wanted to overthrow the Emperor eventually both in RotS and in ESB. Since Palpatine knows that Vader has the POTENTIAL to dwarf his own powers, it only makes sense that Palpatine would keep a few tricks in his bag just in case Lord Vader decided to walk the walk of the Sith and not just to talk the talk of the Sith. Same deal with Force Lightning; I know that the official interpretation is that you need a organic hand to use it, but IMO Palpatine simply refuses to teach it to his apprentice; after all, Palps can just say if Vader used lightning he would fry his own suit (Dooku had studied on his own the ways of the Sith and had access to Sith holocrons and may have just picked up the most electrifying move in Sith entertainment on his own). I don't think that Anakin truly lost a measure of his potential Force power due to his injuries at Mustafar, rather that he simply lost the will and ambition to fully exploit his abilities after what had happened.


So in conclusion, If you're a Sith Lord, and you need an apprentice to go out and do your bidding, but you're afraid of him becoming more powerful than you and eventually usurping your power, your best plan is to hold back vital knowledge from him (life sustaining/creating), put him in a position where he is dependant on you (Vader's life depends on his armor), and have the power to eliminate him when necessary (Force lightning versus Vader's breathing apparatus).


This is my interpretation.

 

In general your interpretation isn't bad, and it makes sense... except for a couple points.

It's not arguable whether or not Vader lost his potential.

It's G-canon. Non-debatable, non-contradictable G-canon from the mouth of the Flanneled One himself.

Same thing with the Force lightning thing, I believe. In any case, we know for a fact that Vader's max potential is only 80% that of Palpy's. So that wasn't the issue.

And I think the indications (from the NEC and so forth) are that Plagueis was the only one who knew how to do the whole "creat life" trick - and Palpatine learned his way of eternal life from a Jedi who knew a consciousness transference technique (still wonder why the Jedi knew that?). Not from Plagueis. So he's not lying, or at least not completely.

- Keralys

 

i like this idea of palpatine just trying to destroy everything, but i think i can go one step further towards a 'why'.

he HATES the force, and life, and everything to do with existence. i've heard rumors that plagieus is talked about a bit in dark lord, and that he was a real s-o-b. and that guy probably raised palpatine. he grew up with amongst the most broken of childhoods imaginable. and like so many like that, he is quite jaded, and will never learn to cope. in fact, he knows he will never be able to enjoy life at all. so he turns this rage outwards, and decides to get even with fate (the force). its like bartleby and loki in dogma. they will destroy the universe just to escape it. but palpatine knows he can't destroy it all, so he decides his only goal in life will be to fight the will of the force. he makes war with god. he is the satan of the gffa. and destroying anakin destroys a whole mess of plans, win/win in his mind.

 

Interesting... if valid, it's a strong parallel to another Sith Lord with some other striking parallels (in terms of plotting, manipulating, long-term planning, and making a desperate vengeful comeback after defeat):

Darth Traya (Kreia)

The similarities, even in philosophy, are quite strong anyway.

- Keralys

 

Interesting so if Palpy knew the way to mantain life we saw it use it in ROTS, however if Obi-Wan did the same with Luke in ANH then could this be part of the teachings of Qui Gon to Yoda and Obi-Wan?? So the knowledge gain by the Sith first and then by the Jedi was lost when Palpatine was killed, and when Obi-Wan and Yoda leave the GFFA

 

I'll have to consider your criticisms of my post some more, but I guess one big general objection that raises itself to your theory for me, TME, is that I've never had the impression Palpatine intended Anakin to lose. I think Palpatine tended to make pretty strong plans, but that a big part of his real talent was in improvisation, in twisting whatever situation came his way to his advantage. (Maybe some more thoughts on this later, if I can get it all together.) I don't believe he foresaw Obi-Wan defeating Anakin, and so I don't know that he could really have planned Anakin's physical destruction like that.

To get more into this, though, I'm evidently going to have to read DL. The spoiler mentioned raises more questions than it answers, and I simply have to have it in context before I can figure anything out.

-Paul

 

Excellent point, and certainly one that makes sense in the context of how Palpatine decided to pit Luke and the entirety of his Dark Jedi minions against Vader, but didn't the Emperor only learn the soul transfer ability late into his reign, shortly before the Battle of Yavin or so? We now know he'd never tried it before Endor, and only started testing it (on Bevel Lemelisk) after the first Death Star's destruction.

 

Take a look (or rather a listen) to Palpatine's breathing after his duel with Windu. That is not the sound of functional lungs. It's the sound of Palpatine using the Force as a mechanical respirator. Maybe it's just me, but I'd say it's pretty clear that Palpatine must have used the Force to repair catastrophic cell damage to his body after that... he may not be able to totally undo the damage, and he doesn't know the transfer-trick quite yet... but - even if he doesn't consciously realise or acknowledge it - he looks to be keeping alive via Force-use...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I think I'm going to reread the RoTS novelization and see what conclusions I can draw for myself, but I like your theory, Ewok.

Although here's a thought: According to Sith philosophy, the Sith had a chosen one too, the Sith'ari, which was probably the same chosen one as the one heralded by the Jedi Order. The Sith'ari, I believe, was supposed to destroy the Sith and bring balance, and then return to lead the Sith (or something like that - I need to look it up). Perhaps Palpatine was aware of this and wanted to keep it from happening because destruction of the Sith Order meant his own destruction and Anakin's rise. By weakening Anakin, maybe he was trying to ensure that this threat would never come to pass.

Though it did, to a certain extent. Darth Vader did end the official reign of the Sith.

Hmm, I think I need to do some more thinking about this to make it more coherent.

Maybe the simple solution is that Palpatine was an ass, and he like torturing Darth Vader just like like pulling wings off insects.