The Halls of Arrakeen - The Official D U N E and Frank Herbert discussion thread

Here's the remainder of my Lynch re-edit blueprint. The more I study the story of this film, the more saddened I get. This is truly a cinematic tragedy -- Universal CAN'T move forward on a special edition DVD without David Lynch, and a (rightfully) spiteful Lynch will go to his grave before he goes near Dune again. So we'll see a proper film of this film when heaven (never mind hell) freezes over. Sigh...

Chapter 5: The Conqueror Worm
In the theatrical version, the Yueh autopsy scene follows after Liet?s line ?Who knows?? Instead of that, I?d put the small scene that was placed just before the ornithopter taking off ? that of Atreides soldiers picking up Harkonnen battle language. The newbies watching will think the Harkonnens may be planning an attack on the ornithopter.

I think it might be a good idea to CGI-modify the ornithopter. My memory isn?t perfect, but I?m sure the book said something about ?flapping wings? on it?

Add the Smithee lines about worms and wormsign, and digitally add the ultrablue eyes to Kynes.

The ?baliset/Liet & Leto talk? follows the worm attack, as in Smithee. If possible, I would add the distant, echoing chants of ?Mahdi? and ?Lisan Al-Gaib? over the shot of the ?hand? moon reflected off the water on the floor.

I?m not sure if Leto?s ?If anything should happen to me? scene should stay in or not. What do you think?

I?d leave out the shot of Dr. Yueh walking through the corridors, but keep the Shadout Mapes walking scene. Leave out the ?Jessica, what is wrong?? voiceover from Leto, but keep the rest of it.

Chapter 6: The Harkonnen attack
The battle sequence remains as in the theatrical version.

I?d keep the expanded scene of Sti ? er, Feyd tormenting Yueh with Leto, minus the Smithee music but in the same spot as in the theatrical. Basically, I?d keep all the expanded stuff (minus the recycled/flipped footage), but keep the sequence of shots as in the theatrical.

Move the following Paul?s voiceover line to when Jessica realizes Leto?s dead: ?Where are my feelings?I feel for no one??

Delete ?I mean? from ?Paul Atreides? in the flashback.

Instead of ?I promise one day the sleeper will awaken,? etc, create a new line (McLachlan soundalike?): ?Now?.now I can feel. Now I can mourn you.?

Cut out the bit of Rabban ripping Liet?s stillsuit (save that for later). Go from the Harkonnen ship exterior directly to Rabban walking up to Thufir?s cell.

The whole sandworm chase sequence remains as in theatrical.

Chapter 7: The Fremen
Add the Paul/Jamis fight from Smithee, without a doubt! That is one cool sequence!

Leave out the Alternate ?Prophecy? speech from Smithee.

Include Jamis? funeral from Smithee. Also include from Smithee Chani learning of her father?s death (including in the flashback the clipped theatrical line ?Now, take him to his desert?.to die.?) Keep the entire original Toto cue for this scene, as in Smithee.

Cut out the narration of Virginia/Frank about Alia?s premature birth (which was NOT in the book). Move the Paul/Chani love scene to just after this point.

Replace the repeated establishing Giedi Prime shot with an (CGI) orbital view of Giedi Prime.

Chapter 8: The Weirding Way
After the Baron/Hawat scene, use the desert establishing shot immediately prior to cue in to Paul addressing the Fremen.

Chapter 9: The Worm Conqueror
Add the slightly expanded opening to the ?Sandworm Rider? sequence.

Chapter 10: The Coming of Muad?Dib
Keep most of the extensions to the first attack sequence (minus the recycled material from Chapter 5). Deleted the repeated Paul line ?When the spice flow stops, etc.? from the first attack sequence and replace with a Guild navigator line that starts earlier (from the Lynch script): ?Guild advisory: 17 Great Houses of the Landsraad are reporting serious delays in spice delivery. This is a violation of CHOAM code. Warn Baron Harkonnen to rectify situation.?

Delete the Virginia/Frank narration (Boy, you can really tell I?m not fond of

 

I think that the Sci-Fi channel has an extreme case of cranial recalitis.

 

Hmm, that's very interesting about the SciFi channel! I hope it's not true!

They are bringing back BattleStar Galactica in December, tho.

I watched the Children of Dune rerun, too. I love the extended miniseries type versions much better than 2 hour movies.

Some of the material needs to be there, regardless of length, rather than being cut to make the movie fit a preordained format.

Too bad they don't make theatrical releases as long as "Gone With the Wind," for example, where you have an intermission.

Lady Sami

 

That would rule, Lady S.

 

Yeah, but the theater owners want 2 hour movies, so they can have a better turnover of seats. Seems rather short-sighted to me.

And I thought you liked me for my wit and charm!

Lady Sami

 

Well, hallo again to this thread. I talked before about enjoying the 'Children of Dune' mini-series. Anyway, the mini-series rekindled my interest in the Dune books, so I went around searching for copies of it. I've read them before, and I remembered enjoying (though with varying degrees) the first three books, but somehow I really hated the fourth book, couldn't finish it, so I haven't read anything beyond that.

Thus, I found copies of the first four books (yes, including 'God Emepror of Dune' which I previously couldn't finish). I've re-read them...well, actually not quite. Again, I'm finding it hard to finish the fourth one. Anyway, this is better done with me reviewing each one by one:

Dune

Well, what's good here? It has a fairly good intro, I was immeadiately interested in Paul and the Reverend Mother and Jessica. The best supporting character though was Dr Yueh. Very nicely written, I actually felt sorry for the guy. The Harkonnens are decent villains, though some are more caricature than anything else.

Best, most enjoyable parts to read were those centred around Paul, definitely fun. Alia was great too. In fact, Alia is pretty much my fave character in the Dune books, probably why I prefer the first three books. Reading her kill the Baron was very satisfying, much better than most of the other 'action scenes' in the book.

However, when it focused on the concepts and such, I began to feel sleepy or I feel the urge to flip the bloody pages. Within the story itself, the long winded explanations on the various religious stuff were rather...well, boring. It's much more enjoyable to read it in the Appendix

Anyway, moving on....

Dune Messiah

This review is a bit shorter. Why? Because this one is my fave of the lot. Really, I feel that I need not say anything more, I just simply enjoyed this, from start to finish. From the opening with that interrogation excerpt, to the ending where Alia begs Duncan to stay with her, 'Dune Messiah' is a great book. I think it does have a place in my top ten books, assuming I get around to actually assembling such a list

The best part here is that it has a better focus on the characters rather than having all the long winded religous stuff. And hey, it's great to finally see Irulan's personality. Does anyone realize that in the first book, we get to see nothing about Irulan despite all those little excerpts of history written by her? I wonder why Herbert did that. Weird...but hey, he redeemed himself with 'Dune Messiah'. 'Course, I still think the mini-series Irulan (who was potrayed in a more symnpathetic, though no less complex, light) is much more interesting (either that or Julie Cox is just so damn pretty ).

Wait, that wasn't so short, was it? Damn. Put it briefly: 'Dune Messiah' is the greatest Dune book for me. Moving on...

Children of Dune

After the greatness that was 'Dune Messiah', somehow it was invevitable that this one couldn't live up to the standards of the previous one. It's still enjoyable in certain parts. Alia remains my fave character, even when she is the 'villain' of the story. It was also nice having Jessica back again. And the Preacher, always fun to read what he's saying.

The rather dissapointing parts were, sad to say, the twins who are unfortunately the focus here. For me, Leto and Ghanima just ain't as interesting as the previous Atreides siblings, Paul and Alia. And the whole talk of 'The Golden Path' and "Jacarutu" (sp?), blah blah...well, it didn't really interest me in the books, and even in the mini series I wasn't all that thrilled by it. The schemes here for me just isn't as masterful as the ones in 'Dune Messiah'. This is MHO, feel free to disagree.

Anyway, whatever faults I lay upon 'Children of Dune' it's nothing compared to my criticisms of 'God Emperor of Dune'. Again, I still haven't been able to complete it yet, so I'l only have a real review of it once I somehow manage to finish it. Anyway, it's safe to say that I probably won't be venturing forth beyond that fourth book, un

 

C'mon, does anybody wanna have a go at creating a Lynch/Smithee composite? If not, I'll find some way to do it...what am I gonna need as far as sound mixing and FX corrections?

Since Lynch has written it off, what about Dino/Rafaella De Laurentiis? They're still alive, last I heard -- has anyone asked THEM about a possible restoration?

Hey, if Superman II can be restored by fans as it recently was, and Star Trek: The Motion Picture as a joint fan/director effort, there's no reason Lynch's Dune can't receive the same...and the 20'th anniversary of the film IS coming up next year...

 

Man other books open up your mind and set it on fire. They are great and you have to read all 6 in order to have any kind of clue of what the Herbert was trying to do.

 

There isn't enough marijuana in the world to make Lynch's version of Dune make any sense. The "extended" Sci-Fi edition really wasn't much better if you ask me. The prologue was cool, but that's about it. I didn't find it to be very engaging, just more tiresome.

The recent miniseries' haven't gotten it all right either. But you can't ask for much more than what John Harrison and his crews have done. I feel that they've stayed as close to the books as could really be possible, even if Frank Herbert authorized Lynch's movie. (Though I doubt he was very happy with the end result).

 

...well, against my better judgement, i pre-ordered "The Machine Crusade", today.. Got told i should have it within the next 3 weeks, although it's highly possible it COULD be in by next week..

Not sure why i'm getting my hopes up.. Every single one of the Prequel books have disappointed me, save for "House Atreides" (Which i guess i was going into expecting to hate, so expectations were low)

Course, i guess it's just exciting to have new Dune to read...

 

Did you read The Butlerian Jihad ? If not, you may be pleasantly surprised. Dont get me wrong, it isnt Shakespeare by any means, but KJA and the younger Herbert seem more comfortable this time around.


I didnt care for the prequels either but I really didnt think that The Butlerian Jihad was was all that bad. To be honest, I rather enjoyed it.


Also, Im pretty sure that The Machine Crusade will be available in stores on 9/16 if anyone is interested.

 

Oh yes, i did read "The Butlerian Jihad"..(actually have a review of it posted SOMEWHERE earlier in this thread... I'll look it up later and find a link.. It's late, right now, and i'm too lazy )

To sum up, though: I found "Jihad" to be uneven...Some elements i really LIKED (The Cymeks, Vor Atreides and his robot buddy, The Master Control Program P) launching probes off into space.. Twill be intriguing to see how that plays out), some elements i found tooo cliched (Erasmus is the only one i can really remember here.. I'll point you back to my review as it was much more fresh), and some elements i just found dumb (didn't like Serena Butler AT all. Had a real hard time sympathizing and caring about a character who was THAT naive)

 

Yea, Jihad had alot of holes but it was miles better than any of the first three prequel books.

 

Here's a repost of my review (couldn't get it to link directly to the page.. Sorry bout that)

....well, i FINALLY finished reading "The Butlerian Jihad"... Once again, Kevin "The Worst Writer in the Known Universe" Anderson and Brian "Boy, he must have really hated his father" Herbert have written a first book that definitely piques the interest.. If you're a Dune fan, "Butlerian" is worth your time, if for nothing else then for the last quarter of the story alone.. The actual beginnings of the Jihad are undeniably exciting.. The rest of this post will deal in spoiler-material, so highlight the following if you wish to read it...


Okay, first of all, the two best things about this book are the Cymeks (human brains living in machine bodies, serving Omnius, the Overmind of the Machines, either by choice or by force), and Vorian Atreides.

These were the most interesting new additions to the Dune Universe that Kevin and Brian put forth.. Is it coincidence that both are Atreides-related? I don't know, but i found that the book was a much more interesting read whenever the above two were in play...

This could be why i found the middle-portion of the book to be such a drag.. You were forced to deal with the dull, contrived character of Serena Butler for this portion..I found it very hard to sympathize with a character who was THIS naive.. THIS stupid..KJA and BH did a VERY poor job, IMO, with this central character.. They basically forced her down our throats as this "likeable, good-hearted, natural-born leader"..None of the above traits, however, are EVER displayed in her actions.. She's a spoiled-political-brat who's brash decisions continuously put others in peril and/or got them killed.. Why ANYONE would follow her is a mystery to me.. A mystery that was never resolved by KJA and BH.. She is, by far, the weakest part of the book.

I didn't much agree with the way the authors portrayed another central figure of this book, and of DUNE in general, reported-Scientific-Genius TIO HOLTZMAN. In DUNE, Holtzman is pretty much the inventor of everything.. If, however, KJA and BH continue along the course which they have apparently set, then Hotlzman will end up as nothing more then a one-hit wonder who steals all his ideas from someone smarter... I was REALLY lookin' forward to much more then just the cliched 'jealous scientist' in Holtzman's character.. Very much disappointed..

Another thing i was kind of disappointed in were the Zensunni.. I thought we were going to get to see HOW the Zensunni Wanderers got to Dune.. Felt that that would be a much more compelling story.. Instead, we just see the Zensunni doing the Fremen-thing on Arrakis, sans-stillsuits...I found the actual "Dune" portions of this "Dune" book to be quite dull.. OOOH look, Shelim learns to ride a worm.. OOOH look, the Tleilaxa (See? We're so clever! The Tleilaxa are the Tleilaxu, with an 'a' instead of a 'u'..)
Much more could have and should've been done here...Seems like this stuff was just thrown in to have some "Dune" in a Dune book...


On a more positive note, i like the early-version of the Bene Gesserit.. The idea that they were basically suicide-psychic-energy-bombers is pretty interesting...

Back to Vorian Atreides: It's interesting to note that the vaunted Atreides-discipline seems to have come about due to the fact that the origianl Atreides was raised in the black-and-white world of the Machines.. Not sure if KJA and BH MEANT to go this deep, but i thought this was a neat little touch..


The character of Xavier Harkonnen was neither here-nor-there..He wasn't anything special, although how it is that he could love someone SOOOO much, and then, the second she appears to be gone, he runs off and marries her sister, is a bit strange.. You'd think he'd have at least SOME kind ofmourning period..Looks like the beginnings (and i do mean beginnings.. X and Vor seem to be at least on speaking basis still, at the end of this book) of the Harkonnen-Atreides feud are just another cliche.. Why is it always about heart

 

Cool, thanks for reposting that.

Also, anyone else besides me not like the fact that there will be a twenty year gap between Jihad and The Machine Crusade ? I think that's an awful lot of time to jump considering the severity of the war. I mean, why simply brush over everything like that, you know ? Do they mean to tell us that absolutely nothing of interest happened in those two decades ?

 

..yeah, i definitely agree with you there..That seems like a HUGE timejump...

Although, maybe we'll get to see some young Harkonnens and/or Atreides running around

 

I finally bought my on copy of Dune today I'm going to start reading it again soon.

 

Hey everyone - I LOVE DUNE!!!!!

I even love God Emp. of dune...but I think that the weakest by far is Heretics. I've probably read the original book about 8 times, and I collect dune related books. I think I have pretty much everything- like "song's of muad'dib", the "dune encyclopedia", etc... I just can't get into the prequels. The only one I read was House Atreides. Just didn't cut the mustard, and I didn't want to ruin the dune world for myself so I haven't read any others. I picked up Butlerian Jihad at my library, but couldn't get through more than 20 pages. Anyway, if anyone wants to talk dune or has any questions about the encyclpedia I'm your man.

 

...boy, i dunno.. It's tough to pin down a 'weakest' book in the series, cause they ALL have something fairly substantial to offer..

If i had to pick my least favourite, it would probably be "God Emperor", but it's also one of the books that is most rewarding upon multiple readings..


"Heretics" is probably my third favourite book behind "Messiah" and the original "Dune".. Course, i'm quite partial to Miles Teg..

 

God Emperor isn't really a weak book, it's just incredibly different from the others. Part of Leto's Golden Path was to make repress humanity's impulses, and since the novel takes place at the end of his reign there is understandable very little "action" other than Siona and how Leto turns her from rebel so someone who understands who he is, what he's doing, and why he's doing it.


When I first read the novels I didn't much like Heretics and Chapterhouse but when I re-read the series a few months ago I was surprised at how much more I enjoyed them

 

Heretics and Chapterhouse are definately the two weakest, imo, but they're still way better than most of the rubbish that's out there.

So will you guys/gals be reading Dune 7 if they ever publish it?

Also, did you all read Dreamer of Dune, Herbert's biography? It's actually really good.

 

Finished 'God Emperor of Dune' a couple of days ago...

Well, I have to say that I definitely don't like this book. Really, it was a struggle to finish the bloody thing. Usually I might do a detailed review as to why I don't like this book, but this time, I'll just say I don't like it and leave it there And now I daresay I won't be reading the books after that. Nope, for me only the first three books are entertaining, with 'Dune Messiah' being my fave. And similarly, I'm not gonna pick up the prequels.

Oh well, next week, they're gonna have another rerun of the 'Children of Dune' mini series. I'm gonna watch the 'Dune Messiah' part again, hurrah!

 

Lurking: honestly, you really should give "Heretics of Dune" a go..

That book's a little slow to start, but once it hits it's stride, it really is a solid read..

"Chapterhouse" is also worthwhile, mostly cause it continues the story of the characters we're introduced to in "Heretics"..

Miles Teg REALLY is a neat character..



I wouldn't fault you for avoiding the prequels, though..."House Corrino" especially.. I think that very well could be the worst reading-experience of my life.. Anderson and Herbert took a nice big dump on DUNE, with that one....(i mean, c'mon! An AMUSEMENT PARK in the DUNE UNIVERSE??)

 

Dune and God Emperor of Dune were always my favorites.

 

I finished God Emperor a while ago, but it took me so long to finish that I couldn't remember what had happened in the beginning to make the end so significant. Maybe someone could give me a summary of the events. I would really be appreciative if someone could give me a summary and answer a few questions which I have:

-What happened to Anteac and her "mission"?

-What was the attack upon the Embassy all about?

-Why did Leto II want to create a human like Siona, and what was that last statement about her being invisible to someone or something about?

-Why did the Tleilaxu (or was it Ixians?) create Hwi Noree, and what part did Malky play in this?