PT The Jedi’s plan to arrest Palpatine in his office

Except yes, it is, unless you think he's dumb enough to assume the dark lord who manipulated the galaxy for the last decade in a half is a bumbling buffoon who will go shopping in broad daylight or attend a senate session after revealing his darkest secret to a Jedi Knight (And when that Jedi Knight explicitly told him he would tell the Council).

No, If Mace doesn't take action Sidious will ensure the Jedi Order is wiped out. Maybe Mace doesn't grasp every single detail of the Grand Plan, but he would be remiss not to connect the dots that Palpatine planned this war, (and with TCW in mind they may very well realize he ordered the Clone Army!), for the explicit purpose of eliminating the Jedi. If Mace waits it will likely be going too late to stop him.
Bring reporters and senators to the conflict? They are pointlessly murdered, and the Jedi get blamed.
Call Yoda and wait a week or two for him to get back to Coruscant? Order 66 wipes out the Jedi.
Take a few hours to get a hundred combat capable Jedi from the temple? (Assuming there are even that many on the premises). Who knows what Palpatine will have done by then?

I feel like all these assumptions that Mace "Could have done" involve a logical leap that Palpatine would have just gone about his daily business with no backup of Mace did nothing. That is an extremely faulty premise, and one Mace himself surely realizes he cannot ASSUME the man who pulled EVERYONE'S strings likely since before the battle of Naboo would be so easily exposed for no reason. Its action or extinction at this point.

 

so you are another who thinks Jedi are complete morons.

good to know

 

Go on.

 

go back a page.

 

Sounds like your the one who thinks they're morons.
I simply pointed out that *literally* anything else they did, including many of the theories on the previous page, end up as bad or worse than what happened in the existing timeline. You're the one insinuating that Windu is an idiot who think Sidious is just sitting back twiddling his thumbs with no plan to do anything against the Jedi until they choose to move first. Thats ridiculous beyond belief. Hes been proactive in planning their downfall for decades now, why would he put himself in a position to be easily undone now?
I can't understand the logic that "He just needs to expose him".

How exactly? Be very specific, like im a toddler. Wait for him to go shopping in a public space? Wait for him to call the senate into session? Wait for Yoda to come back from Kashyyyk? Wait wait wait wait wait until the Dark Lords Plan goes to fruition and the Jedi are wiped from the galaxy while Mace does absolutely nothing knowing the Sith Lord he's been looking for is in control of the Republic and Commander and Chief of the Grand Army? To my mind the stupid thing, based on what he knows at the time, is to wait for the Sith to strike first. Once again this just sounds like an excuse to complain.

"The Jedi should be perfect Yada yada, they should have 20/20 hindsight yada yada, if they followed my preapproved map of strategy and fortune telling then that dumb idiot Palpatine would have tripped on his robe and fell out of his senate pod and had no choice but to use the force to save himself in front of millions of people. He's never had a back up plan before right? Star wars over in a minute"

 

this is what they could have done

and yes, he was just twiddling his thumbs waiting for the Jedi to do something...

he needed an excuse to execute order 66 and eliminate the Jedi as a security threat. Did you even watch the film?

my whole Palpatine & Jedi 15-1 post was a point to prove Palpatine was not powerful enough to take on a ton of Jedi at once. Not as something that should be done straight away.


If you see my posts in is it illegal to be a Sith thread you will see very clearly, I don't think they had grounds for an arrest anyway...

but this whole "can't.... he's just too powerful" is BS.

 

I think Samuel Vimes has the right idea, simply approach Palpatine with senators and tell him the war is over and to relinquish power back to the Senate. Dude's already be running the show for the last 13 years, they've got time left. Mind, they still have to act quickly (and by quickly I mean now), but it wasn't a situation that called for going in with lightsabers.

 

Palpatine would just tell the senators that the situation is still volatile and they'll need to wait a bit longer etc.

 

At least in Legends, and depending on the Jedi knowing about Myrkr, possibly the best way to deal with the situation would have been a few masters (possibly together with some senators), taking some Ysalamiri with them, convincing Palps to step down or arrest him on their own.

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Now that the conversation has reached bringing force suppressing lizards along. Can we accept that the framing of the scene in the movie was the best for dramatic purposes, and the information the movie provides us doesn’t show a better option for the Jedi to pursue without waiting.

 

If those senators show up, what do you think will happen when he refuses to give up? They'll tell the Jedi to arrest him, at which point he still attacks. Instead of four Jedi dead Jedi, it's now four Jedi and five senators. Especially the ones who form the Alliance. Now he has a larger conspiracy and no opposition.

 

yup that is right I forgot, there is only four Jedi in the whole galaxy, silly me

listen @darth-sinister Palps is powerful, yes, but he is still just one Sith lord....

he struggled against Yoda, and their fight lasted a while,
now imagine if Yoda....Mace...Ki-adi- Obi-Wan and a ton more went after him,
please stop with this whole Palpatine is a god nonsense, he isn't invincible.

 

I have never wanted or thought the PT Jedi would be prefect. But neither did I expect them to the morons the PT has painted them as.

What Mace could have done?
First off, question Anakin more closely, how exactly did he find this out, what exactly did Palpatine say?
If Mace did this and found out that the Sith Lord that has been very clever in hiding his identity for over a decade, just tells a Jedi who he is and lets that Jedi leave?
Anyone with more teeth than brain cells would think this a little odd.
So Mace would be aware that Palpatine let the Jedi know who he is, likely expecting them to act quickly.
All the more reasons to think before you leap.

Second, Mace should have warned the other jedi masters, tell them what Anakin told him.
If Mace thinks that Palpatine will unleash the clones on the Jedi, which he could, given all the shady things he already knew about the clones and on top of that, the person with the highest authority over the clones is a Sith. If he does think this, warn them!
If Mace thinks that Palaptine will not do something right away, then take a few minutes a come up with a better plan than running in, sword drawn.

Third, Mace should be aware that the "evidence" they have is thin. All they have is Anakin's word, would that stand up against Palpatine in a court? If their goal is to "expose" Palpatine as a sith, then having a crowd makes sense. If five Jedi and say, 8 senators enters Palpatine's office and violence starts, will Palpatine be able to kill ALL of the senators? Focusing on the senators might expose him to the jedi, who could kill him.

Lastly, making Palpatine so "Uber", that he can not be beat, that he is omnipotent, he can foresee everything and all that. To me, it makes the character boring. He does not need to be clever, he can foresee everything, he has no worry in a fight, he can beat everyone.
In general, unbeatable, totally OP characters, good guys or bad guys, can be hard to write well.
With villains, as I've said, they can become boring and when they loose, as they tend to, then if they are totally unbeatable, then some deus-ex-machina has to pop up.
With heroes, it can remove all stakes as nothing can ever threaten them. They can not ever loose and nothing can hurt them.
I see Palpatine as someone that is quick on his feet, he has an overall plan but he can improvise and he can adapt his plans. Sadly, to me, the PT did not make him all that clever, everyone else is just dim.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Those other Jedi cannot simply break off to go fight him. Those battles were days or weeks away from ending safely enough to leave. That's why Palpatine waited until the Jedi were so stretched thin to enter the endgame phase of his plan.

Obi-Wan would die as quickly as the Jedi who accompanied him. Yoda even said as much.

 

Obi-Wan wouldn't stand there like an asshat waiting to swat a fly on Palpatine's back...

yes...they can,

oh, so clone commanders aren't capable unless a force senstive with a lightsaber is around, got it.

because good guys are dumb, according to you and others and can't function.

 

He'd die the same way Kit Fisto did.

No, they can't. The Jedi are hip deep in battle. That's why Obi-Wan and Anakin were the only Jedi who left Mandalore to rescue Palpatine. Ahsoka stayed to fight. Ki-Adi-Mundi, Plo Koon and the rest couldn't break off.

We saw that in both the films and cartoons.

Mace isn't stupid. Arrogant, but not dumb. He made a judgment call. Just like Yoda. Palpatine plotted out scenarios that weren't easily overcome. He had plans on top of plans. He had no clue about powerful he was. And worse, what ends his life isn't who wasn't at his side. But who was there.

 

mesa give up

 

Honestly, I can't fathom how questioning Anakin more changes the fundamentals of what is going on. Anakin told just about everything he knows (Save for the things that would incriminate him, and he has no reason to divulge that). The choice is simple, go now, or wait.
Most combat capable Jedi are in the field and can magically materialize on Coruscant at the drop of a hat.
Even assuming there enough in the temple to overwhelm Sidious by himself it could very well take hours to organize them. (Or would you rather they leave the younglings defenseless?)
The dark Lords plan is coming to fruition, and despite his mistrust of Anakin he takes his warning seriously. Every second counts.

Mace would be an idiot to wait and give Darth Sidious time to take action. What does he know about the Sith Lord after all?
That he spent decades planning the downfall of the Jedi.
That he manipulated this war from the beginning. (And clearly has a plan for its end)
That he is the commander and chief of the Republic military.
That he's got thousands of Senators under his influence.
That he trained Dooku and Maul (Both of which were defeated by far lesser foes than him).

Based on what Windu knows, it seems far more reckless and stupid to wait and give him time to execute his final plan than it does to take action and force him to play his cards.
From an OOU perspective I've said repeatedly that Sidious put them in a no-win situation. No matter what they did they were screwed.
From an IU perspective, knowing what they do know about him I firmly believe Mace Windu chose the least bad option.

All these complaints boil down to "No matter how logical the answers to my questions are I don't want to accept them."
If you want to hate the movie's so badly you need to ignore the objectively limited choices Mace has to claim he's an idiot because a deus ex machina doesn't pop out of thin air to save the day I don't really see the point of a debate.
Hint- there are two options:
1. Confront him and hope you can overcome him.
2. Wait for something to change the dynamic, and pray that while you're waiting, he doesn't execute his plan.

IMO it would be a million times more idiotic for him to assume the man who manipulated the galaxy up until this point won't do anything while he's waiting.
Look at it this way. Based SOLEY ON WHAT MACE WINDU KNOWS.
Would it be dumber for him to underestimate Sidious's intelligence or his combat abilities?
I honestly don't how anyone could so much as hesitate when answering that question.

Sidious is smart.
Mace Windu is smart enough to realize Sidious is smart.
Windu is smart enough to know that smart Sidious won't just wait for the Jedi to undermine him.
Mace Windu decides it's better not to give Sidious that time to plot.

I honestly don't know how I can explain it any simpler.
Its wait for Sidious to act first or force him to show his cards. There is no third option.
And waiting is what got them into that situation in the first place.

 

Darth, he fought Anakin at the height of his power. The Chosen One. The guy Lucas said could've easily destroyed Palpatine. He would've lasted more than Kit Fisto did.

And all the Jedi? What about the other Jedi on the Council? The other Jedi Masters? Is it all just literally Jedi Knights and Padwans and Younglings in the Temple?

The Clone commanders seemed to be doing fine after Order 66. All the Jedi would need to do was order the commanders to secure xyz or defeat abc and break off.

 

Why would he even allow these people into his office?

 

Wow. I am surprised by the discussion guys. I didn’t anticipate this. I have other questions to add on .

There’s the scene where Anakin tells Mace Windu about Palpatine being a Sith Lord. And the thing that is confusing about that is, I mean that is the thing Anakin should be doing but the problem is he was going to kill Palpatine earlier. The only reason he doesn’t kill Palpatine is because he can save Padme, that’s why he trusts him. But the reason he didn’t kill Palpatine there was because he wanted to go the Jedi way and turn him in to council?
The Jedi way is, they would still kill him because you know he is too dangerous to be left alive. But it like seemed like what Anakin was wanting to do was ask the Jedi council before he takes action. The thing is I don’t see why the Jedi council would have a problem with him taking action if he was like “no no he was a Sith Lord. Like he revealed it to me.” They would say he deserves it. He controls all the courts and the whole legal system and everything so he’d have every justifiable reason to kill Palpatine if he’s a Sith Lord. So I just find it confusing he’s just, he doesn’t want to kill him because he trusts him but then he rats him out to the Jedi. And then he saves him afterwards I guess.

 

Anakin wasn’t at his peak. That's why he lost. Obi-Wan beat him because he knew how to exploit his weakness. That's what Obi-Wan said to him before the war began.

OBI-WAN: "Your need for victory, Anakin, it blinds you. You're a great warrior, Anakin, but your need to prove yourself is your undoing."

As Lucas said, he could beat him. But not yet.

Only Mace and Yoda are capable of fighting Palpatine, but to a stand still. This is why the Chosen One exists. Created by the Force, the Midichlorians and the Whills to end Sidious. Only a few Jedi Masters were in the Temple prior to Palpatine's revelation.

In seven seasons of TCW and one film, have you ever seen the Jedi just leave their units behind and go elsewhere, without another Jedi present? Especially during heavy combat? They were good, but they needed field leaders. That's why you saw Jedi generals, but no clone generals, colonels or majors. After Order 66, things changed.

The Jedi were going to arrest Palpatine if he didn't give up control. Then upon learning he's Darth Sidious, the one Dooku spoke of, they still intended to arrest him. It's only when he coerced Mace into killing him, that Mace justifies his actions as "he's too dangerous to be kept around". That creates a hypocrisy as Anakin was taught it was wrong to kill someone who is helpless. Something he says in regards to killing Dooku.

 

Why would he not? He meets with Jedi and senators quite often.
If some Jedi are coming to report on the war and some senators are with them, why would he refuse to see them?
If he does refuse, that might look odd. Why is Palpatine suddenly refusing to meet with people?

@ConservativeJedi321

The important thing is, as I have said, that the Sith that have been able to keep himself hidden for over a decade, just tells a Jedi who he is and lets that Jedi leave.
Anyone would ask why? Why would the Sith Lord that has been able to keep his secret for so long just out of the blue tell a Jedi that he is in fact a Sith? The only explanation that makes sense is that he wants the Jedi to known. Now why he want that, fair play?
No, a more reasonable answer is he is trying to get the Jedi to act rashly. As Tolkien put it, "The hasty stroke oft goes astray."

What Mace also knows is that Sidious has been the leader of the Republic for over a decade and has had command over the clone army for three years. And so far, he has NOT used the clones against the Jedi.
Why? What is he waiting for? He could have unleashed the clones on the Jedi any time in the last year or so. But he has not, he has waited. Again why? Given what I said above, if Sidious can get the Jedi to act in a way that looks like treason, now he has the justification to kill them all.
And getting the Jedi to rush in, sword drawn, that could be that justification.

Nope, it is far more reckless and stupid to just run off without any kind of plan, not warning anyone and not thinking. Sidious let the Jedi know who he is, Mace would learn that if he questioned Anakin a bit more closely. So Sidious deliberately let the Jedi know who he is and expecting they would panic.

Why doesn't Mace warn the other Jedi? If, as you say, Sidious plans to attack the Jedi very soon.
Why then does Mace not warn the Jedi in the field? That would not take long.
For that matter, why does he not warn the Jedi in the Temple and have them prepare? That would again not take long.
The thing you overlook is what happens if Mace goes and is killed. Then the rest of the Jedi have no idea that Palpatine is a Sith, they also have no idea why Mace did what he did and they are totally unprepared.

Warning the Jedi in the field gives them a better chance to survive Order 66. Warning the Jedi that are left in the temple also makes sense. Then they could lock down the temple, prepare for a possible attack and maybe try to get the younger Jedi elsewhere. The Temple is one big target, so getting some Jedi, esp the young ones, away, to a hidden location, would make sense.
Mace does none of this, so when the clones attack, the other Jedi are totally surprised. Because Mace is an idiot.

And would a smart Sidious let the Jedi know who he is for no reason? Nope.
So why did Sidious reveal himself at this point? Answer, he wants to goad the Jedi into doing something rash.
Sidious HAS waited, for several years even. So Mace knows Sidious is patient.

And again, Sidious was the one who told Anakin that he was a Sith and let Anakin leave, to tell the other Jedi. So this was not a slip up by Sidious, he wants the Jedi to know. So then maybe don't run off without thinking.

I agree that the Jedi were passive for far too long and they should have done a lot before now.
But here? Given that Sidious let the Jedi know who he was then the Jedi could and should have smelled a rat. The question of evidence is also important. Do they have enough proof for a trial?
Mace is also acts odds, he goes for an arrest, even after Palpatine had killed three Jedi. Then when Palpatine resists arrest, again, he changes his mind and goes for the kill. But the reason he gives is that Palpatine controls the courts and the senate so no trial will work. But Mace knew that when he left so what really had changed? If he changed his mind and argued that Palpatine is too powerful and no cell can hold him or they can not take him in alive, then that would work.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Still wondering about what would have happened if the Jedi appeared in Palpatine's office with some Ysalamiri

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.... 'cos he's just revealed himself as a Sith Lord. Like - have you watched these films?
wtf?
c'mon mate.

if it's not to his advantage why would he let them in? He's the president of the galaxy .