Full Series The Jedi: Superheroes?

It seems like the Jedi and their respective power levels (please no over 9000 jokes) are portrayed differently - sometimes vastly - in every source you go to.

Example: Genndy's 2003 Clone Wars showed Jedi as superhuman indestructible warriors, while the 2008 The Clone Wars show has the Jedi as relatively underpowered and able to be outmatched.

The question is, where do you guys think on the power spectrum the Jedi should be? Is it important to acknowledge that the Jedi are a cut above everyone else, so they need to be shown as the heroic defenders of the Republic? Or for the sake of realism do we need to see that they aren't perfect and are just as vulnerable to blunders as the next guy?

There are positives to both sides. The Jedi filling the superhero role with appropriately measured superpowers makes for an awesome read/viewing. But I also like the more down-to-earth, mortal aspect of the Jedi that show that while yes, they do have powers that give them an advantage over a non-Force sensitive person, that they are still ultimately vulnerable and most certainly should not be invincible.

Obviously there are also problems with both sides. Too powerful and you question how it was that they were nearly eradicated by clone troopers so easily. (with a few notable exceptions of course) If Mace windu was able to decimate an entire army of droids pretty much on Dantooine in CW, then how was it he fell so easily to Anakin and Sidious in ROTS? Too weak and it just looks ridiculous. I'm sure many of us are still baffled how Dooku, Anakin and Obi Wan all got owned by drunken pirates. Or Robonino taking Anakin out in Hostage Crisis. Or the following infamous quote *cringes* "Not so impressive without your lightsaber, are you, Jedi?"

So, your thoughts?

 

This spells lock all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Jedi and Sith are eventually what the story, writers, directors, producers, illustators, and animators want them to be at the time...period. Throughout the entire spectrum of star wars, they have been able to do amazing things, but they also have at times looked like punks, like EP death in the Coruscant Book. It was a punk death unfitting for a high council memeber. Ben 10 with the Omnitrix can probably take on 85% of all the jedi and sith.

 

Ah, the old days. Yeah, that was supposedly one of the criticised/praised aspects of the old series. I got huge laughs and entertainment from it, but can see it wouldn't be sustainable.

I think it might be good to see them somewhere IN THE MIDDLE. Of course, where that is depends on who's looking at it. I'll try and elaborate what I mean.

As you mentioned, the SUPERHERO JEDI are one extreme. The underpowered Jedi, able to be drugged by pirates.

My ideal of 'in the middle' would be what we've been seeing in some of the more action packed episodes where the Jedi get to show their stuff. When they go all out, I feel it's nowhere near as exaggerated, but still more 'unleashed' than the films. Examples of episodes would be Bounty Hunters (Season 2) and Hunt for Ziro (season 3) where the Jedi display acrobatics, Force Powers and skills. The recent Citadel trilogy is also something I thought was appropriately kickass, but not too much.

Of course, in the interests of giving props to non-Jedi enemies, I'd like to think that some of them have more credibility than others. Robonino, for instance, while not a huge threat on his own, is a wily, cunning guy running with a tough crew, so his scene was plausible if not probable. And of course, we all know what Cad Bane is like.

 

We have movies and we saw in them how jedi can be shot by a battledroid- how they barely can lift geonosian pillars- yet Yoda claims size matters not so we know everything is possible throught the Force but it's not mean it's easy- in old CW it was too easy- in TFU it is too easy- in TCW it seems to be sometimes too hard.....IMO

Thing is that jedi are above 'normal' guys but not invincible- as videogamer i don't think there is clear problem- in games player is given powers of the Force and you can fight much like jedi in the movies- (if game is good) you'll notice that while you can do that amazing stuff- you can still be defeated and shot down even by mere battledroid .... ok ok in games there is totally unrealistic crazy stuff like "energies" and "staminas" but they simulate surprisingly well concentration and physical limits- not even to mention how many shots Starkiller can take before dying..... Force must be 'used' as we see in movies- it requires concentration that must be trained and what can be broken- then you fail.....it is about control....and physical limits are still there- Force is energy that can be used for physical action to empower your jumps, kicks etc. but it requires training- not use it enough and you will be exhausted like any other who have jumped around- we can see how Luke sweats when training on Dagobah- he is still just learning to channel the Force.......

Thing is that Force itself may make everything 'possible' but we should know that it's not same as "easy" and like any other skill- forceskills must be trained.... and not even greatest masters still can do everything- Yoda can probably move entire starships if he concentrates deeply but then he can be easily shot down- it's quite a natural he won't even try (There is no try- if you fail it doesn't matter if you tried)

Are jedi superheroes- well that defends definition of 'superhero' of course....

but anyway I think:

-it is possible to bring stardestroyer down by the Force but it's not easy and usually not wise either
-if you are surprised you have no time to use the force- so you may die like any other- be shot down- or bisected or stabbed by lightsaber..... forcesensitives have quicker reflexes but it doesn't mean they immediately react to everything- there is limits- Robonino for example used that to his advantage
-dark side allows quick bursts of power but it doesn't last long- such powers as force repulse or choking several guys at the same time or blasting them with lightning create illusion of dark side being stronger....
- even planets can be moved through the Force but that requires such a deep concentration on that thing alone anyone can stab you in the back- is it worth the risk?- definitely not.....
- your attitude can empower or weaken you- Luke failed because he believed lifting X-wing to be impossible
- even with the Force it is dangerous to attack big crowd- just try in some game- you will be shot easily- because deflecting shots requires concentration

 

The Jedi, as George has often said, are not meant to be superheroes. They are among the most powerful beings in the galaxy and, generally, they do not die in their typical ?peace keeping? operations. This has gained them the reputation as being immortals to the galactic populous (as pointed out by young Anakin) when in truth they are just as vulnerable as the next being.

Typically a Jedi is just as ?moral? as the average being however their use of the Force protects them somewhat through their abilities. This means when overwhelmed by firepower or when they are outflanked they are killed just as easily as any other individual.

With that said however as you gain wisdom and strength in the Force your ability to use it increases your defensive capabilities; as seen in individuals such as Yoda. These beings however are just as venerable as the next individual physically.

Think of the Jedi as moral wise monks just as vulnerable to death as you or I. The Jedi are however capable on manipulating an energy field which gives them extraordinary ability to defend themselves through reflexes and manipulation of the world around them. However if their opposition is able to act beyond these abilities they are just as vulnerable as any other being. So they are merely really good at ?defence? and are very capable at ?defensive offensive?. While it may appear they are ?superheroes? in reality they aren?t.

It is also important to note that when completely concentrated on a singular thing the Force is able to be used in stronger ways... such as Vader deflecting the blaster bolt...

Regarding why Galen Marek (or however you spell it) is so overpowered: a member over at Rebelscum (can?t remember who exactly) gave an exceptional reason. Simply put when one knows the power of the Force yet is not exactly trained by a ?system? (like Jedi or Sith) they can get to a stage where their power is essentially a ?wrecking ball? of pure Force destructiveness. It is as if the Force takes over this being and all control is lost essentially creating an individual where the Force continuously ?spits out? force energy. This can be seen in Starkiller and Savage Opress, who both don?t have control over their Force power to any great extent and as such lose control of themselves to an extent. An explanation as to why the Sith aren?t like this is because it is an instable state which threatens to ?make you crazy? and the Sith need to maintain some ?control? over their abilities... this prevents the Force ?possessing? them...

I may or may not have explained that correctly... I?ll try and find a quote...

 

Did he? Or are his mechnohands just blasterproof? I think nothing in movie indicates that was necessarily Forcepower- it's possible though... even lightsaber can be deflected like that (like overlords did- maybe they were not real beings but still i don't think it's impossible- Old Republic trailer shows jedi doing so....just eu but still)- but not many like to try- failure in that trick means death....

 

I don?t think it was simply his ?mechanical hand?... I think it was used to demonstrate his prowess in the Force. His gloves are also unlikely ?blaster proof?... which would have resulted in the gloves being ?damaged?. Besides you seem to placing it in contrast to the blocking of a lightsaber... his mechanical hands obviously didn?t stop Luke during ROTJ.

Regarding the Overlords blocking Lightsabers; that was a blatant symbolism of their power over that or moral beings. It is apparent that ?moral? beings cannot possess those types of powers within George?s Universe.

Then we get to the Hope Cinematic Trailer; that is, of course, EU, however it could be explained by what I stated in my previous posts. If one concentrates completely on a singular act (also providing the ?Force is willing? since I think certain abilities are bestowed on Jedi at certain needed times) they will be able to accomplish unbelievable feats. But then again I think that ?ability? may be questionable in the HIGH CANON universe.

 

Do we see his gloves clearly enough to judge their "damage" anyway?

So they aren't lightsaberproof but they can be blasterproof .... luke's hand was too but it had sense of pain and vulnerable artificial skin....

That was not told clearly though- Father says they were real beings though on temporary world and Son was not lightsaber proof at the end so it was apparently their ability- but yeah whole thing may have been bizarre vision.....

Well since GL obviously messes up with this lightsaber thing all the time like electrostaff being cut while it is supposedly impossible and we see them using non-electrical metal part for blocking sabers in movie and in Lair of Grievous- and Zillo beast is lightsaberproof even though no "ordinary sword" of Mandos can be
do sword out of Zillo's corpse then

 

The way that I see it is that the Jedi have a force pool, which becomes deeper as they increase their connection to the force. For your average Jedi even deflecting a blaster bolt takes effort, as you become more skilled it takes less energy to do so.

So in the thick of battle the Jedi very wisely conserve their force powers, they have no idea how long a battle is going to last, they could use up their force pool to unleash a monster force push to dispatch some battle droids, but then if any other droids appeared they would but exhausted & would be rapidly killed.

An example of the above can be found in the most recent Clone Wars Arc - Master Piel uses a massive force push to flatten several super battle droids, immediately afterwards several destroyers roll in, Master Piel immediately surrenders because he has used up his strength & it hasn?t fully recharged making a battle with the destroyers unwinnable.

As the chosen one Anakin has the largest force pool, but he is not as skilled in the application of the force as say Yoda, so when he uses a force power it drains more of his force pool then it would for Yoda to accomplish the same feat.

As for major feats like pulling down a star destroyer I think only the most powerful Jedi can accomplish this but it leaves the pool empty and in need of a massive recharge hence the reason it very rarely happens. When Starkiller pulled down the destroyer I suspect it took him days to recover.

Heck maybe the reason Anakin never used the force against son during the mortis trilogy (in a meaningful way anyway) was because he was still recovering from making the brother & sister knell in the first episode, either that or bad writing.

 

Firstly I'd like to say I like sithreaper's 'Force Pool' theory...

I am fairly certain it is seen intact immediately following the block. However even if it isn?t did he ran to the bathroom and change it before his duel with Luke? Because I am almost positive it isn?t damaged during the duel...

I?m not sure I follow... your statement seemed to suggest you believed the blocking of the blaster bolt was the same as the blocking of a lightsaber... as such I assumed you believe that Vader?s arm would also be lightsaber proof. Something it obviously isn?t.

Luke?s hand is an example of why Vader?s hand wasn?t blaster proof. Unless Vader made some type of modifications it is obvious that Luke?s mechanical hand was not blaster proof... as such Vader?s likely wasn?t either...

I don?t want to get into a ?Mortis debate? however it is clear that their powers were a symbolism for their power beyond that of ?moral beings? (i.e. the Jedi). Also the reason the Son was not ?lightsaber proof? was because the Father had taken his power... without his power he was now a fully moral being thus he could be stabbed with the lightsaber. With their powers, as noted, only the Dagger could kill them... but I digress.

 

I really like the force pool theory. Bringing the video games to life!

 

Thank you good sirs.

I always remember playing Obi Wan on the X-box and immediately thinking that it was a brilliant representation of what the Jedi are capable of. You?re extremely powerful, one on one you?re virtually unbeatable but if you unwisely use up you force pool by using flashy and frankly completely unnecessary) powers to dispatch enemies you leave yourself vulnerable.

 

"I'm not sure."






They really should have got the voice actor to record some alternate lines...

 

if there is little burned hole in the black glove would we really see it? Also why gloves couldn't be blasterproof in galaxy with droids, shields and hyperdrive- Vader's armor seems to be lightsaberproof actually in the duel and sourcebooks confirm it is....

Actually i was just giving random theories..... but still blasterproof is not same as lightsaberproof - i didn't say so -lightsaber>blaster i was just saying that if you can block blasters maybe even lightsaber blocking is possible through the Force- just maybe....
Vader's arm is not lightsaberproof as we see but it can be blasterproof....

Actually Luke's hand was pretty blasterproof since it was shot and it worked afterwards well enough- but artificial skin was not blasterproof- hand itself was not damaged- Anakin never wanted skin to it - exactly because he wanted to modify it- that is told in sourcebooks- yes they are eu but some info is from Lucas himself.....

This!

Same thing is simulated in games with stamina/Force energy bar and it works well enough to make jedi powerful but not invincible..... taking that ISD down in TFU is agony and if you wonder why Dooku was taken by Hondo play games you'll find that it's not same to

 

I agree with Vong333's statement that it is ultimately up to the writers since this is fantasy/sci-fi.

That said, I think it would depend on the scenario and the jedi/sith in question. Some were able to weild power that made them far more powerful than any other person in the galaxy. However, none were either invincible or infinitely powerful.

KOTOR II: the Sith Lords points out that the Jedi reliance on the Force is both an asset and a liability, since they are capable of great things but without the Force are often unable to deal with situations "normal" beings could.

So some have reached Superhero status, yes, but none are invincible or infallible.

 

The old series was really over the top.

It creates problems like if Mace was able to take on an army of droids with his bare hands, how come so many Jedi died in the AotC arena?

Dooku being captured by the pirates made total sense. No matter how powerful he is, you can't block a hundred blaster bolts with your bare hands. And even if he tried something like a Force Repulse, he was being targeted by several snipers. He simply didn't stand a chance.

I like it better when they're realistically downplayed. Sure, they're more powerful than non-Force sensitives, but I like that even these can prove to be formidable opponents, like Jango fett vs. Obi-Wan.

For me the real problem is when the Jedi aren't using their powers at the appropriate time, which happens a lot in this series. Sometimes it's for the sake of plot, but that makes it only worse.

So often there are moments when I think 'a good push would work wonders here'. Just recently, in 'Counterattack', there is this moment where several battle droids are standing close together right on the edge of a huge abyss. Anakin could have simply pushed them off the cliff, but instead they decided to let Ahsoka waste a few detonators on them. In this case I really wondered if it simply was a matter of the production team not even seeing the alternative. Or perhaps they thought the Ahsoka moment was important. Who knows.

In short, I like their power level much better in this series, but the problem is they don't use their powers often enough.

 

Well, duh! Of course they're super heroes, no matter how they're depicted.

 

The ideal Jedi should be a combination of the following:
- a Greek hero: strong in body, strong in mind, with Warrior Poet tendencies
- a Buddhist/Daoist warrior monk
- a technical fighter - face it, the Jedi probably know more about personal combat than anyone else in the Galaxy; their diplomatic talents would be useless if they weren't backed up by the certainty that the Jedi in question knew over a hundred different ways to guarantee a speedy death to anyone who attacked them or their charges.

Bonus points if the Jedi has a lot of guile, has a silver tongue, loves to make rousing speeches, etc. They're supposed to be larger-than-life leaders. When we hear Obi-Wan reminisce about them in IV, he isn't describing them as glorified, but ineffectual diplomats, no better than your average useless, beleaguered UN ambassadors.

 

But it depends on definition of 'superhero'- if superhero means guy with good intentions and unnatural powers then yes they are 'superheroes' but they shouldn't be too powerful they need limits- smashing enemies with entire planets for example is quite ridiculous

 

Perhaps you'd feel the same way if your pupil turned to the dark side and helped eradicate the order. It's only logical that he's bitter about the Jedi being fooled by the war.

 

Having just rewatched Mortis, I'm left even more perplexed at how the Jedi's powers are different even within the same context. If Anakin can force both Son and Daughter into submission in Overlords, then how did he not put up any sort of challenge to Son in Ghosts of Mortis? If it was on a different planet I could buy Obi Wan's "The planet IS the Force, use it" advice to Anakin, but it doesn't make sense. To me at least.

Going over everyone else's thoughts, it seems we are mostly in agreement that to make the fall of the Jedi believable we need to see the Jedi as mortal beings that are ultimately not invincible.

I can totally get behind the force pool theory though, as it would make sense that continued usage of the Force would become increasingly strenuous on the individual and eventually, much like a 100 meter runner, they would run out of stamina and require some recovery time where they are unable to do such exhausting activities. Kind of a shame then that we hardly ever see the Jedi out of breath after doing all sorts of crazy things with the Force, even if they get increased stamina abilities logic dictates that they would tire eventually.

 

I don't think Mortis-arc really made sense anyway... at least as complete trilogy... too many things like that just didn't work.... but that's not topic here

 

It's my topic I decide whether you can type that or not

 

Part of the problem is that almost every non-main character Jedi is exactly the same, even in instances where they are featured as main characters. There will be a scene where they meditate, there will be a scene where they instruct a young Jedi to be mindful of the Force, there will be a scene where they display how ineffectual a combatant they are by getting captured by no more than four droids, and then they will die needlessly even though the situation really doesn't warrant it. Unless the Jedi is Plo Koon, in which case, Dave Filoni will personally write a scene where he is inexplicably badass. Literally every Jedi outside of Anakin, Obi, and Mace are exactly the same Jedi, kind of like Yoda-lite. And because George Lucas needs to have the bad guys win in Episode III, each of these Jedi are comically underpowered. Of all the characters to be turned into redshirts, Jedi are the last characters you'd expect. Their very presence on the battlefield should be enough to weaken, or even break the enemy's morale.