Characters The Jedi Way - Jedi Discussion Thread - Jedi and the Force in The Clone Wars

Aaaaaah, analysis is what I do.

The 'creche' is referenced in the Jedi Apprentice books, though I don't recall where it might be mentioned. In one book Obi-Wan helps rescue some very small children in the Temple and in another story, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan pick up a Force sensitive baby (after a lot of problems with the local culture) to be trained at the Temple.

The Jedi that you see in the late Old Republic are really centralized on Coruscant for their base of operations. That is another thing that makes me think that their numbers are in the low 10's of thousands at most. If they were in the 100's of thousands there would be more reasons for them to have more than one base.

In earlier times, there used to be lots and lots of Sith causing problems in the galaxy before they switched to the 'rule of two'. Could that mean that there used to be lots and lots more Jedi? And when the Sith numbers went down, so did the Jedi?

 

For the PT Jedi, I read somewhere, though I can't remember where, that there were only ten thousand or so Jedi around. Your reasoning about the Jedi/Sith numbers make sense, and could also be a reason why the Jedi started taking only infants. If there was no overarching threat, there wouldn't be the need to train every Force-sensitive they could find.

As for the creche, while there may not be much canon evidence for it (never read JA so wouldn't know if it was mentioned), there's common-sense evidence. After all, if the Jedi only take infants, there has to be a place to raise them. They certainly wouldn't have people outside the Temple do it!

 

I read ferom different sources, mostly Wookiepedia, that before the Ruusan Reformation, They had Jedi come from different sources-

1. Birth
2. Recruitment
3. Family Line

Basically, Jedi were pulling in members from different sources, so they possibly6 may have been several 10's of thousands of Jedi at some point of time in the early years. However, because of the Ruusan Reformation, they wanted to minilize the threat of a Jedi going to the dark side, so the only way they recieved new members was to get them from birth, as they are practially pure at that stage, haven't been taught in the ways of the force yet. I assume that taking Jedi at birth yielded lower numbers, and as a result, Jedi numbers went down during 1000BBY-0BBY.

 

And you have Corellia and the Corellian Jedi. They live mostly on that planet and can have children and marriage.

 

I never use Correllian Jedi in my fics because most of the background for them was established before the prequels came out and before anyone knew that Jedi were forbidden possessions and attachments. Correllian Jedi have been written into the EU but the conflicting backgrounds are too confusing for me to write. But I can easily picture pre-Republic Correllian Jedi doing all those things.

Independence1776: I think I saw the same reference to there only being about 10,000 Jedi, too. But I can't remember where I saw it either.

Darthbane2007: That sounds like an excellent explanation about why Jedi numbers might be low in the Old Republic. They obviously only take them from birth whereas they could actually train them from all ages. The Council was willing to toss Anakin back because he was too old even though he had huge potential.

Which leads me to one thing that I ignore in the EU......in the JA books it's stated that if a child with Force potential is not trained by the Jedi then their unused powers would cause them problems. That really makes no sense to me. Luke was an adult before he started training and had no idea that he was anything special. Obviously he and Anakin were unconsciously using the Force for piloting, didn't think their talent was anything more that good reflexes and intuition.

So, if the Jedi don't train someone, I don't think that anything bad will happen to them and that there is only a very, very small chance that their Force abilities would cause problems. And that the active Force powers, like telekinesis, don't show up without training. With no Sith around, the Jedi Council in TPM did not think that Anakin would be a problem if they didn't take him.

Which makes me think that when the Jedi were competing with the Sith there was a strong motivation for both sides to find and train anyone they could. So, that competition would have greatly inflated their numbers. Interesting.......

 

Corellian Jedi can be fun to write

And for finding Force sensitives, it could be that the Force had to lead a Jedi Knight or master towards a child
Qui-Gon was guided by the Force when he found Anakin and seeing the bond he had with Obi-Wan it could have been him who had found that one too.

 

How are Corellian Jedi different than other Jedi anyway, besides being from Corellia?

 

Kewl. Thanks for the confirmation on the creche concept, peoples.

Apart from working alongside CorSec, having families and the wearin' o' the green, not much from what I can tell. Although, I am just going off what it says in Wookieepedia, my first-hand EU knowledge is limited to say the least.

 

Does anybody care to work out how Species are represented in the Jedi Order? I know that humans are the most numerous, with Twi'Leks possibly in second..

 

I'm afraid I've never really thought about attempting a species breakdown of the Jedi. I assume it would be roughly similar to the species breakdown of the Republic, but I have no idea of what that would be.

The best estimate might be to estimate it from the Jedi you see in the movies. The Jedi Council is mostly non-human - this is a breakdown I did awhile ago for a fic with the human in boldface:


TPM seating order, going from the door, to the left, clockwise:

Depa Billaba
Eeth Koth
Yarael Poof
Adi Gallia
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piell
Yaddle
Saesee Tiin
Ki-Adi Mundi
Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon


ATOC seating order, going from the door, to the left, clockwise:

Depa Billaba?
Eeth Koth?
Horn-on-head guy
Adi Gallia?
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piell
Shaak?ti
Saesee Tiin
Ki-Adi Mundi
Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon


ROTS seating order, going from the door, to the left, clockwise:

Stass Allie
Person sitting between Kit Fisto and Stass Allie
Kit Fisto
Saesee Tiin
Orange-greenish head guy
Anakin Skywalker
Agen Kolar
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Ki-Adi Mundi
Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon


Almost everyone is a different species, so there must be lots of non-humans. And we don't even know what species Yoda is. But in the Arena in AOTC, you see lots of humans fighting. Most of the bodies in the Temple in ROTS looked human, but it's hard to tell.

 

I'll be off to Worldcon for the week. Don't burn the Temple down while I'm gone.

 

So how exactly does a Jedi Knight/Master choose their padawan anyway? Do they just go to a group of Jedi Initiates and go " Eeney Meeney Miney Moe" ?

 

It's really not stated. From the JA books, an individual master looks over the choices and picks one. Presumably they use the Force as a guide to see which one 'feels' right. Or circumstances throws them together, as was the case for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in the JA books.

For Obi-Wan, Anakin was an odd choice, since he trained him because he promised Qui-Gon that he would.

In the Clone Wars movie, Obi-Wan supposedly asked the Council to send him a new Padawan, presumably sight-unseen. But it is strongly hinted that the padawan was meant for Anakin all along, a ploy to give Anakin more responsibility that will help mature him. But being assigned a padawan in the middle of a war is highly unusual, so that wouldn't be a standard.

However, this implies that the Council can assign a padawan to a Jedi Knight to train, if they think that both of them will benefit from the pairing. Interesting possibilities there.

 

But what if 2 Masters/Knights both wanted the same padawan?

 

There's evidence for that in the EU as well, i.e. Yoda assigning Scout to Jai Maruk in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

 

At least Corellians have it easy. They train their own child. Nejaa trained Valin or Hal Horn as he was known after the Clone Wars and purge and Hal trained Corran.

 

Here's how I think it was done:

Younglings are put into a group called clans. They train them until the appropriate age. Then, depending on how many are in the clan, they contact the same number of Knights ( or masters) That are due to recieve Padawans, and have them study the group. The Knights/Masters that see a potential Padawan, they choose them. The ones that don't get chosen are given another chance with the next cycle of Younglings that are to be chosen. If they aren't chosen by the second time, then they are sent to the Jedi Service Corps.

 

Younglings are put into a group called clans. They train them until the appropriate age. Then, depending on how many are in the clan, they contact the same number of Knights ( or masters) That are due to recieve Padawans, and have them study the group. The Knights/Masters that see a potential Padawan, they choose them. The ones that don't get chosen are given another chance with the next cycle of Younglings that are to be chosen. If they aren't chosen by the second time, then they are sent to the Jedi Service Corps.

If your source is JA, any potential master looks over any potential youngling - perhaps occasionally as young as 10 up to nearly 13.

I doubt, just my opinion, they have an equal number of knights/masters to match the potential younglings. In fact, in JA #1, only one Jedi (Qui) was available to take a padawan and there were 2 boys close to 13 who were running out of time.

Qui chose to take neither Bruck nor Obi-Wan.

Theoretically Qui could have chosen as a padawan a youngling younger than Bruck or Obi-Wan. By chosing another, or in JA choosing no one, Qui left both boys unchosen. Obi-Wan's time had then run out as their was no other available knight/master.

Ten master/knights could have been present, and 10 younglings or less chosen as padawans, though only 2 were nearing the magic age of 13.

Once chosen, the new padawan leaves the clan. The other potential padawans remain there until chosen OR age 13 (per JA).

Those not chosen by age 13 leave for the other services (Agricorps is mentioned in JA, other sources mention explorer corps, healing, etc. as if a padawan's course is to a Knight and the healers/explorers/farmers are Jedi but not Jedi knights.)

 

Those not chosen by age 13 leave for the other services (Agricorps is mentioned in JA, other sources mention explorer corps, healing, etc. as if a padawan's course is to a Knight and the healers/explorers/farmers are Jedi but not Jedi knights.)

The thing that confuses me about that is, there are Jedi Healers who have lightsabers, and have padawans.

 

That's why I take and leave what I want from JA - too many contradictions and things I'm not fond of.

 

I think there are Jedi Knights and Masters who are healers and train padawans, but also a Medical Corps run under the auspices of the Jedi but not composed entirely of Jedi. Nor exclusively of failed Jedi or non-Jedi. I think the other Corps probably work similarly, actually -- Jocasta Nu is supposed to have gone off with the Exploration Corps for a while, and I'm under the impression it was voluntary.

 

In that event, the Council would likely decide which master to pair the padawan with, possibly relying on input from the padawan as a factor in the decision. It also seems reasonable to consider factors such as each prospective master's age, his success in training previous padawans, and the padawan's strengths and weaknesses. If, for example, a particular padawan were weaker in the area of lightsaber combat, the Council may elect to pair such a student with a master known to be formidable in that area, so as to properly address his weaknesses.

A question I have always wondered about is how the Council would approach a Jedi who was not interested in training individual students. Was the selection of a padawan learner a requirement for all Jedi, or were Knights and Masters free to choose whether they wanted to teach in the first place? The Jedi were as diverse a group as any, and it's unlikely that every one of them was capable or willing to participate in the training of future Jedi. That said, the continuation of the Order's traditions was an important matter, and I find it hard to believe the Council would accept a Jedi's unwillingness to train students. Perhaps a compromise could be reached in which a Jedi was not required to take a padawan, but would be able to fulfill his teaching responsibilities by instructing large groups of students in classes. A Knight or Master could, for example, teach a course about Sith history as a substitute for his desire to not be assigned a student of his own.

 

Didn't Sasaee Tiin reach the rank of Master not having trained a Padawan?

Anyway, I think the training of a padawan should be a requirementto elevate to Master status, but after, Padawan training isn't necessary. Shaak Ti had her 2 padawans murdered, and the council was reluctant to give her another.

I'm sure the Jedi Council would give them a job within the Order to do if they aren't capable of teaching a Padawan. Say you have a Jedi who prowess with a lightsaber is unmatched. Well, he/she could be given a job as lightsaber instructor, like Cin Drallig.

 

I doubt that the Jedi Council routinely assigned padawans to masters, but it can happen. And I suppose that the Council has to approve pairings, but that is probably routine.

I read somewhere that to be a master a Jedi had to:

- train a padawan to knighthood

or

- accomplish some great deed(s) that the Council considers worthy of elevation to master.

but I don't recall the source.

There are probably plenty of masters available to train Jedi under normal condition.

Say, an average initiate is eligible for selection from age 3-13, 10 years. And an average Jedi Knight is likely in prime years for training an apprentice between ages 25-75. And since it may take 10-15 years to train an apprentice, maybe 20-30% of them might already have apprentices. Even subtracting those from the pool of available Jedi, and assuming an even distribution of ages among the Jedi (and averaging among species) there could be 3-4 times as many of potential masters than there are potential padawans who need training.

That balance was probably completely thrown off during the Clone Wars, but before them there probably weren't any problems with getting masters for most initiates.

 

Here's an odd collection of quotes: Quotes from Jedi Apprentice/quest/last Books


I have really enjoyed the Scholastic Star Wars books, that are written by Jude Watson and center on the Jedi. They?re written for the 9-12 year-old reader, so you?re not going to find intricate plots or complex relationships and the further away from narrating technology that Watson stays, the better (fortunately, there are only a few cringe-worthy passages scattered among the various series and special editions). But they have the best characterizations of Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker that I?ve seen in my admittedly limited sampling of the EU Star Wars Universe. But even better than that, the Jedi themselves, their world and wisdom are portrayed as close as I would think they are intended to be from their depiction in the movies.

These quotes from the Scholastic Jedi series capture the ambiance of the Jedi (as well as the books themselves). The only criteria for selecting them is that I think they?re cool, very Jedi and are not plot-specific for the books they are from.


====================================================
STAR WARS, JEDI APPRENTICE #1: THE RISING FORCE
by Jude Watson (ISBN: 0-590-51922-0) Scholastic, Inc, June, 1999

* * * * *
Peace over anger.

Honor over hate.

Strength over fear. ? back cover

* * * * *
?To defeat an enemy, you do not have to kill. Defeat the rage that burns in him, and he is your enemy no longer. Rage the true enemy is.? [Yoda] ? page 7

* * * * *
Yoda had always told him that anger and fear drove him too hard, that if he didn?t learn to control them, they would lead him down a path he didn?t want to follow. ?Befriend them, you should,? Yoda had advised. ?Look them in the eye without blinking. Use faults as your teachers, you should. Then rule you, they will not. Rule them, you shall.?

Yoda?s wisdom was engraved in his heart. How could he have failed to follow it? ? page 16-17

* * * * *
?We are not to know,? Bant said.

?We are to do,? Obi-Wan added softly. It was a phrase they had heard many times from the Masters, when they were asked to do tasks they could not understand the significance of. ? page 19

* * * * *
Justice must be sought out. [Obi-Wan Kenobi] ? page 58

* * * * *
?A man who puts himself in the path of danger deserves to face it alone,? Qui-Gon said sternly. ? page 81

* * * * *
?Anger is our enemy,? Qui-Gon said reasonably. He shot a glance across the room at Jemba. ?Greed and fear are also our enemies. The Arconans can live without dactyl for awhile. You do not need to fight now. Haste is another enemy.? ? page 109

* * * * *
?Yoda once told me that there are trillions of people in the galaxy, and only a few thousand Jedi Knights. He said that we cannot try to right every wrong. All creatures must learn to stand for what is right, and not always rely on the Jedi.? [Obi-Wan Kenobi] ? page 123

* * * * *
Patience, he hold himself over and over again. We must have patience. That was an unwritten part of the Jedi Code. [Qui-Gon Jinn] ? page 134-135

* * * * *
?When your path is unsure, better to wait, it is,? Yoda had told him many times. ? page 167


====================================================
STAR WARS, JEDI APPRENTICE #2: THE DARK RIVAL
by Jude Watson (ISBN: 0-590-51925-5) Scholastic, Inc, June, 1999

* * * * *
Jedi are taught to value dreams, but not to trust them. Dreams can confuse as well as illuminate. A Jedi should test a dream much as he tests unstable ground. Only when he?s sure of his footing should he move on. Dreams can be random energy, nothing more. Some Jedi see things in dreams, and others do not. ? page 2-3

* * * * *
Obi-Wan wanted to blurt out the question. But one of the Jedi?s most serious rules was not to cross-examine a Master. Truth can hold great power. Therefore the decision to share it must be weighed. Only the Master could decide on revelation or concealment, according to the greater good. ? page 12

* * * * *
Master