CT The lost pilots and scenes from the Endor space battle in Return of the Jedi

Just for completeness, the .06 line may have been a permutation of this novel reference to a squadron of TIEs.

I am still working on an interlace of James Khan novel paragraphs against original ILM scene numbers (from Call Sheets, Progress Reports and blocks of text from Rinzler Making of Jedi) against scene numbers from the Dec 19 1982 Second Draft (sanitized to linear for public consumption). I have not even tried to start decrypting Blue Harvest call sheets, which will be an emergency measure if the following doesn't achieve single scene resolution. What I have left to do is the large number of individual MF cockpit scenes, the five-ish number of X-Wing cockpit scenes, and the three-ish number of A-Wing, Y-Wing and B-Wing scenes per the ILM call sheets. The main decryption keys to this are the handful of unique shots that have a single character or combination index nowhere else (e.g. Oola, e.g., Mon Mothma scene, e.g. Lando / Han farewell). A lot of chop is most evident with how Lucas parted out the Luke vs Vader scene in comparison to the novel.

 

I see what you're getting at and I think you're probably right. In the film edit we see Lando first and Nien Nunb next, but in fact the original chronology may have been the other way around, as suggested in the novelization (i.e. Nunb said in his language "Squad at .06" and Lando translated that instantly for the other pilots to hear).

 

Lt. Hija I'm still interlacing the space battle scene between novel, ILM scene numbers, and 1982 sanitized transcript. The short story is that X,Y,A,B-Wings ALL have filmed cockpit dialogue and footage for scenes 102, 120, and 126. 126 so far is 'most likely' (unquestionably) the attack on the super star destroyer. I.e., I know, from first principles, with evidence, that B-Wings were part of the attack as originally envisioned. There's another document (private sale, crap postage stamp res, that listed all the sets that had to be constructed, and X-Wing, Y-Wing, "New Fighter Cockpit No 1" [sic] and "New Fighter Cockpit No 2" [sic] were all checked off. That demonstrates to me fundamental unfamiliarity on the part of either the draftsman or carpenters with the basic design of either A or B wing.

I'm a bit let down that Dermot Crowley only got to echo Ackbar's lines, and did not get to do other riffs or get other prompts. his three lines are lifted directly from, or reflected directly in, the novel. This would be scene A85A, which can be seen on the clapboard that shows briefly during his part in Lost Rebels. This does not explain what was happening when he made his triumphant face. Is it possible that footage exists where Dermot Crowley ran down the *Entire set of lines for Ackbar? And that the triumph look is Crowley's version of the super star destroyer going down? His interview didn't give a sense of how much he read. He was on set for two days past his bit part in the briefing. It's possible he did nothing the first day and waited for Ackbar to get all his scenes done, and then did some lines on the second day. It's possible he read back the entire set of Ackbar lines. To make that guess I appeal to the match between Vivienne Chandler's three or four lines and the other pilots' more complete read back off the same script. I predict there is other Dermot Crowley footage out there.

I'm using slate numbers off of clapper boards for added information. Fortunately the slate numbers from Blue Harvest takes do match up linearly with other scene numbers. This clapperboard setup does not fit linearly with other dated call sheets, because it would purport to represent footage taken before Principal Photography began in January 1982, yet, it is for scene 102, which is comprised of MF, X, Y, A, B-wings. Ideas?

 

Hernalt

I can do little but to concur with your findings, i.e. that indeed a lot of pilot chatter recorded was meant for a large scale attack on the super Star Destroyer.
We can see in the lost pilots footage that Ms. Poppy Hands ("Red Three") is activating her A-Wing targeting computer scope (just as Red Leader, Gold Leader and Luke did in ANH) which inevitably looks somewhat odd because by the time she's done, she would have probably passed any 1 mile long Star Destroyer.
Given the established length of a super Star Destroyer of 11 miles and looking at the actual fighter speeds would add more sense to the pilot chatter lines, IMHO.

It would almost look as if Mr. Kahn's presentation of Chapter Nine in his novelization (the attack on the jaming Star Destroyer) is something he made up by recycling super Star Destroyer attack lines, but fortunately you already provided this thread with that rough Joe Johnston storyboard # 63 from an earlier attack on a Star Destroyer which IMHO apparently belonged to that particular lost scene.

I would have also liked to see Dermot Crowley (General Madine) in command of a Rebel Star Cruiser during the battle, but perhaps George Lucas felt that would have confused audiences ("Where is Ackbar, has he been wounded and replaced?").
As a matter of fact, I now think that he was the one to lead the attack on the super Star Destroyer, originally. Remember Ackbar's "Concentrate all fire on that super Star Destroyer" were lines that were added as additional (to-be-shot) scenes on February 25, 1982, in a matter of speaking a last minute addition before the set was torn down.
Possibly added once the decision was made not to have Madine lead that attack, so essentially Ackbar replaced that part, too.

When I asked Dermot Crowley about his extended scenes in 2002 he had little to say, other that he wasn't involved in a suicide attack (so we can at least exclude him being in command of the Rebel cruiser that rammed itself into a Star Destroyer...).

That IS indeed a strange clapper board you posted there (is it genuine?). And since when do you write "20-11-81"? Shouldn't that be at least 11 (month) - 20 (day) - 81 (year)?!?

 

The filming crew on ROTJ was British, so they'd write dates as day/month/year, rather than the American format of month/day/year.

And, logistically speaking, I doubt the Rebels would have had many people -- if any at all -- on board cruisers that were deliberately meant as "fireships" for ramming attacks. I suspect the idea would've been that they were guided remotely via auto-pilot.

 

ATMachine

Here is the screenplay / transcript depiction of the scene (in bold) with Kahn's Variation (not bold):

The two armadas, like their sea-bound ancestors, blast away at each other in individual point-blank confrontations. A Star Destroyer explodes. The Rebel victor limps away, its back half alive with a series of minor explosions. The Rebel cruiser manages to move in next to a second Star Destroyer before it explodes completely, taking the Imperial Star Destroyer with it. Cargo ships loaded with charge are set on collision courses with fortress-vessels, their crews abandoning ships. The Falcon and several fighters attack one of the larger Imperial ships.

The cargo ships / Rebel transports were the "fireships", but one Rebel cruiser captain seemed to have decided to take a Star Destroyer with him, rather than to just let his ship explode with no effect.

I certainly would have loved to see that, but IMHO Starship Troopers provided us with a good visualization how that might have looked, at least.

 

I have to use Blue Harvest call sheets, which have a higher population in the US, naturally, to pin down the fighter scenes. Still working on that.

A topic I have not broached that I feel bears consideration is the novel's mention of the super star destroyer's navigation system appearing to have trouble prior to it receiving concentrated fire. I'm not near my notes. A fruitful perspective on fighters VS over class warships can be gleaned from the use of biplane torpedo bombers against the Bismarck. I'll just drop some quotes.

From http://www.uboatarchive.net/BismarckINT.htm

And the tale goes on. The idea being that enormous capital investments represent an inertia. And in general, huge inertias are susceptible to agencies of high speed, high momentum, high intelligence, or some other disproportionately overpowering facet that the monolithic, megalithic investment cannot hope to maximize. Only optimize. Familiarly, DSI optimized against capital class vessels and did not maximize against the unforseen / unpredicted snub fighter.

Frame by frame on the descent of the super star destoryer shows an unmistakable plume from its aft / engine / steering section. I am perfectly pleased to rationalize that it was taking serious damage, of an unpredicted, dangerous, nearly immobilizing nature before Ackbar gave his order.

I may be missing something but I still don't know exactly what Ackbar meant when he said 'We have to give those fighters more time.' It's almost the sense that the SSD was putting out more reserve wings of TIEs to go chase the MF and Wedge. The casualty rate in the novel would support my reading of that command. The film itself would not *really support that reading. It is also possible Ackbar sensed a need to achieve a short term victory to keep up spirits, and smelled blood and took an opportunity to topple a psychological pillar. Other takes / other ideas?

I'll be back later. Will have to analyse Blue Harvest call sheets to bracket the earliest fighter scenes. The reason is that not all scene numbers, declared on call sheets, remain unaltered over the course of shooting.

 

Hernalt wrote

I may be missing something but I still don't know exactly what Ackbar meant when he said 'We have to give those fighters more time.' It's almost the sense that the SSD was putting out more reserve wings of TIEs to go chase the MF and Wedge.

Dang it. The one thing I don't like about "my" own thread is that questions are being asked, that should have entered my mind decades ago.

Yes, I can't see either how taking out the super Star Destroyer would have given Lando "more time" to accomplish his task. Something equally odd occurred much earlier in the film: When the Shuttle Tydirium arrived, traffic control had apparently passed from the Operations Room aboard the Death Star to the super Star Destroyer.

Perhaps the sSD was remote controlling some interior sections or shutting off escape routes for the fighters inside the Death Star. Thus, by eliminating such counter measures Lando and his team didn't have to look for time consuming alternative routes but were ensured safe and straight passageways?

Yes, the novelization suggested that Jerjerrod aboard the Death Star tried to do all these things, but Ackbar's order was a last minute addition during principal Shooting, perhaps meant to overwrite the "Jerjerrod sabotage efforts"?
Notice that this particular Ackbar line is not in the novelization.

 

In the new books such as Lost Stars they also say that Death Star II responded with fighters as well. So it could be referring to those fighters.

The Executor was providing a ton of fighters but I believe he did it because if they took out the command ship it would aid in creating confusion as there would be no one to give orders to the fighters thus giving the fighters more time to complete their mission as well as cutting off a big source of TIEs.

 

What would have been the point to send more TIE fighters into the Death Star (or Rebel fighters for that matter)? Lando's group had a headstart, so the only damage extra TIE fighters could have done would have been to block the exit routes.

 

Chapter Eight: Skimming and entering the Death Star

Lando and the first wave of X-Wings headed for the unfinished portion of the Death Star, skimming low over the curving surface of the completed side.
WEDGE Stay low until we get to the unfinished side.
BLUE TWO Squadron of enemy fighters coming-
LANDO Blue wing, take your group and draw the Tie Fighters away-


BLUE TWO I’ll do what I can.
LANDO I’m picking up interference… the Death Star’s jamming us. I think -
GOLD LEADER More fighters coming at ten o’clock. (?!?!)
LANDO There’s the superstructure, watch for the main reactor shaft.


The Millennium Falcon and the first wave of X-wings turn toward the unfinished side of the Death Star, weaving through protruding girders and scaffolding. A group of TIE fighters follow the Rebels through the maze-like channels.
Rebel fighters follow the Falcon across the surface of the Death Star to the unfinished portion, where they dive into the superstructure of the giant battle station, followed by many TIE fighters

WEDGE I see it – the power channel system.I’m going in.
LANDO I see it, too. Here goes nothing.

PILOT This isn’t going to be easy –

Three X-wings lead the chase through the ever-narrowing shaft, followed by the Falcon and four other fighters, plus TIE fighters who continually fire at the Rebels. Lights reflect off the pilot's faces as they race through the dark shaft.

WEDGE Where are we going, Gold Leader?

LANDO Now lock onto the strongest power source. It should be the power generator.

WEDGE Red Wing. Form up. And stay alert. We could run out of space real fast.

LANDO I’ve got a reading on a major shaft obstruction ahead.
WEDGE Just picked it up. Will you make it?
LANDO It’s going to be a tight squeeze.
The Falcon spins a full 360 degrees while rising, falling and accelerating. The smaller X-wings made it through more easily. Suddenly white static filled all crafts viewscreens.
WEDGE My scope’s gone!
LANDO Cut speed. Some kind of power discharge causing interference. (perhaps the flooding of sectors Jerjerrod ordered earlier?)
LANDO Switch to visual scanning.
WEDGE That’s useless at these velocities. We’ll have to fly nearly blind.


Two more X-wings are lost. Two blind X-wings hit the wall as the shaft narrowed again. A third was blown apart by the gaining Imperial fighters.
The fighters and the Falcon race through the tunnel, still pursued by the TIE fighters. One of the X-wings is hit from behind and explodes.

LANDO Green Leader!Split up and head back to the surface. See if you can get a few of those TIE fighters to follow you / Home One just called for a fighter, and you might draw some fire off us.

PILOT Copy, Gold Leader. (A-WING PILOT in final version)

The Rebel ships peel off pursued by three of the TIE's, while Lando and Wedge continue through the main tunnel. It narrows, and the Falcon scrapes the side dangerously. Two other TIE fighters continue to blast away at them.

ACKBAR The Death Star is turning away from the fleet – looks like it’s repositioning to destroy the Endor moon

LANDO How long before it’s in position?

ACKBAR .03

LANDO That’s not enough time! We’re running out of time.

WEDGE Well, we’re running out of shaft, too

LANDO That was too close.

The original attack run featured an extended skimming of the Death Star’s surface with the support of the Blue Squadron, led by Blue Wing, that split up to make some TIE fighters follow them for a first time.
According to this earlier version, Lando would make use of the same strategy again, which would have looked somewhat stale the second time. So the decision to drop the first sequence looks wise in hindsight.

Notice the original screenplay depictions (that made it into the transcript but seem to have remained unaltered and are therefore most likely genuine) that refer exclusively to X-wing fighters, with three of these leading the run upon entering the Death Star (“Red Wing”), and one returning to the surface where the X-Wing of “Mad Maxx” (to become Green Leader) was scheduled to crash into the bridge of the super Star Destroyer, as seen in the early 1982 storyboards for that scene.



“Gold Leader” confusion?

While the Kahn novelization doesn’t indicate which pilot said “More fighters coming at ten o’clock”, deleted scenes specialist Mark Johnson somehow identified him as “Gold Leader”, which looks like such an obvious contradiction (Lando is “Gold Leader”) that it’s probably genuine.
It appears James Kahn provided the clue how to unravel this mystery. Apparently reflecting the original chronology / screenplay, events inside the Death Star were a bit differently:

Lando was homing in on the reactor core shaft. Else only Wedge was left, flying just ahead of him, and Gold Wing, just behind. Several TIE fighters still trailed. These central twistings were barely two planes wide, and turned sharply every five or ten seconds at the speeds Lando was reaching. Another Imperial jet exploded against a wall; another shot down Gold Wing. And then there were two.

This not an accurate depiction of the events in the final film, but the final film does show a TIE fighter exploding against a wall subsequently followed by a TIE Interceptor shooting down an X-Wing which therefore has to be Gold Wing, and is not “Red Seven” (according to EU conjecture). Add to this, that this particular X-Wing had been the last in line of the six Rebel ships to be able to possibly observe more fighters coming in earlier as “Gold Leader”. Yet, James Kahn suggested that both “Gray Leader” and “Gray Wing” and “Green Leader” and “Green Wing” were synonymous. What’s the story?

While thus far almost everyone had been under the impression that the original Red and Gold Leader in NEW HOPE were squad(ron) leaders (not once was “squadron” ever mentioned), JEDI clarifies that they were apparently Red (Group) and Gold (Group) leaders (and therefore in charge of possibly more than one squadron, which would include Blue and Green Squadron according to General Dodonna in the original, extended screenplay. By the way, this is the only genuine “squadron” source!).

In JEDI they spoke of at least three groups, “Green Group”, “Gold Group” and “Red Group”, apparently consisting of more than just one squadron which solves the problem:
1. Lando was Gold (Group) Leader with at least Gold Squadron under his command, led by Gold (Squad) Leader aka Gold Wing
2. Wedge was Red Wing but apparently also Red (Group) Leader
3. “Maxx” was Green Wing but also Green (Group) Leader (novelization)
4. Gray Wing was also Gray (Group) Leader (novelization)
Had Gold (Squad) Leader been given the opportunity to report in, he would have probably said “Gold Wing, standing by”.

 

The "Green Wing" and "Red Wing" callsigns are rather like European noble titles - if you're John Smith, the Earl of Southampton, people refer to you as "Southampton". So Green Leader is called "Green Wing" because he controls Green Wing, and can order his subordinate Green pilots to carry out commands.

I suspect the wing colors also denote a hierarchy of sorts, with Gold Squadron as the senior fighter group. Lando also seems to be the overall fighter commander, so he becomes "Gold Leader" as the ranking officer overall.

Again, the Age of Sail parallel is notable. Napoleonic admirals would usually establish their command posts on a flagship (denoted literally, by hoisting the admiral's flag), but even these vessels would also have a captain aboard to command the ship in ordinary situations.

 

I have 95% confidence in my bracketing of space battle scene numbers using ILM documents such as Blue Harvest Call Sheets. One line in the unused Gerald Home scripts increased my need to distinguish between all available individual engagements with Star Destroyers. Right now I'll address the most involved of the several Star Destroyers that are engaged, the super Star Destroyer. I'll look at the Gerald Home ISD later.

So for logic that is being considered above, and which may have to do with the SSD's eye in the sky and coordination capabilities, Ackbar says to concentrate fire on the SSD. So this may be analogous to going for the eyes. Frame by frame analysis shows that just as Ackbar is giving this order, the SSD is not apparently on fire, does not have fire or VFX occurring on its bridge or either its port or starboard shield generator sphere towers. In comparison to the ISD that is unambiguously going up visually above it (which should mean by perspective nearer to the viewer than the SSD), the SSD is relatively untouched, unharmed. One blaster bolt goes off near it during these frames. After two A-Wings each fire six blaster rounds (12 total), the port shield generator sphere erupts. It's a larger scale physical model with pyrotechnics and it indeed is destroyed, as a model. Now, why the port shield generator sphere constitutes the "bridge deflector shield", when they may still have a starboard shield generator sphere creates a question. The next sequence on the large scale model shows indeed the metal shrapnel and carnage of the port shield generator, and some fire VFX are added. Looking closely at the starboard shield generator, one can see that while the physical model is intact - I.e., ILM did *not perform an additional pyrotechnics shot that physically destroyed that port-side part of the model, ILM *did add fire VFX so that the viewer could at least make sense of the claim that the (entirety of the) "bridge deflector shield" had been lost. The entirety, because both port and starboard, master and slave, or round robin, or load sharing, or some other conception of redundancy and backup, are visually indicated to have been damaged, and their function destroyed even if not both of their physical structures. Going back out to the master view of the SSD as it is listing to port, the fire VFX that are added are large enough to account for the bridge damage, but depend on viewer generosity to account for the port and starboard shield generators. ILM did not remove the port sphere from the large SSD model, so the high investment in quality models rears its head here and breaks the fourth wall. Maybe the fire on the starboard shield generator went out fast, but the eye has to reject or block out the presence of the port sphere.

I can place an additional layer of consumption onto this. I have now seen storyboards of the earlier conception of a B-Wing attack on the SSD. The framing and perspective of the storyboards naively suggest the B-Wings were attacking the starboard shield generator sphere. This is a *matter of perspective. In a field of parallel lines, all stretching off to infinity, it is going to be difficult, and in the case of pencil sketching, maybe impossible, to make a determination that this or that foreground object, based on parallax, is on the left or the right of the center of that field of parallel lines. In the case of the first such image (you must seek out your own) the crucial corner of the story board is occluded by an arrow showing the direction of the B-Wings' flight. I.e., one flatly cannot make a determination. In the case of the second storyboard, however, the crucial area is not occluded and a fair eye can see that the field of parallel lines stretching off to infinity has a right-most bound, and a left-most bound, arranged in such and such a way that the perspective result is that the sphere in the foreground exists on the right side of the center meridian of the field of parallel lines. I.e., the B-Wings in the storyboard attack the starboard shield generator shield, not the port one. I challenge anyone to object, using the same evidence.

My claim/finding caused me to have to carefully re-analyze the film imagery of the analogous shot. I reserve the original unaltered ROTJ DVD as an emergency measure if this doesn't make sense using the blue ray footage with its crushed blacks (maybe I can see the very faintest field of blue blackness…). Go frame by frame and look for the appearance of stars on the left edge of the SSD. Once one appears, mentally draw a line from it over to the starboard side, and stay parallel to the line of the bridge superstructure. Now bisect that imaginary line and make the bisector a meridian that is parallel with the background, perspective view of parallel lines. On which side of that central meridian is the foreground shield generator sphere? I find that it is on the right side by a small amount. I.e., it is the starboard shield generator. So the film sequence does match the originating storyboard product in terms of perspective, and is different in terms of which fighter is featured. But the film sequence, destruction of the starboard sphere, is inconsistent with the following film sequence, the port sphere had been destroyed.

Discontinuity of VFX go with the territory in SW. I would love to imagine, using the sequence where the SSD lists to port, that the storyboard B-Wings took out the starboard sphere and the A-Wings took out the port sphere, since I already have to mentally reject that I see the port sphere intact. Why not reject two. Also, the sequence as the SSD plunges into the DSII shows a plume from the starboard engine area. I can imagine that one of the engines was damaged in such a way that it stayed on, or went into higher power, and could not be shut off, and/or the port engines went into a proper safety shutdown, and the consequence was the listing to port. The novel does not include the line, "We have to give those fighters more time. Concentrate all firepower on that super Star Destroyer." Although the film shows A-Wings and X-Wings going after it, it is still reasonable that the Rebel Cruisers would also sink some hits too. They are certainly near enough, going by the view out Ackbar's window. It is without much meaning for the novel to say, and for there to be a storyboard for, the Rebel Cruisers "bombing" the DSII, but not have the capability to severely affect the SSD's survival.

One question that is not very well illuminated is when and at what beats the broadside battle between cruisers and ISDs moved from far away from the DSII to very near, or, just above the surface of the DSII. We know the Rebel cruisers were "bombing" it after the SSD plunged. "When" did the Rebel cruisers converge? As soon after they all learned the shield was down?

I expect no persuasion, but I can report having no confusion over the various uses, sequence, and order of color leader and color wing, when I hear 'wing' as a generalized 'any' member of that color group. 'A' Green wing, or, 'one of' Green Group goes down at first, and Green Leader appears subsequently. No loss of continuity for me. Blue Leader goes down at first, and 'a' blue wing, under blue 'squad', is mentioned later. No loss of continuity for me. Gray Leader and Gray Wing are lost, and there is no further mention of Gray anything. No loss of continuity for me. I await the moment that I am confused about the disposition of color groups using this schedule.

 

Hernalt wrote

So the film sequence does match the originating storyboard product in terms of perspective, and is different in terms of which fighter is featured. But the film sequence, destruction of the starboard sphere, is inconsistent with the following film sequence, the port sphere had been destroyed.

I hate to say it, but you are absolutely right. As obvious in these images - http://starwarsscreencaps.com/star-wars-episode-vi-return-of-the-jedi-1983/79/ - the background of the power (generator) tree under A-Wing attack has to be the stern section of the super Star Destroyer, and it is the starboard side power tree which the A-Wings blow up.

Interestingly, the above behind-the-scenes image and the one in The Art of Return of the Jedi seem to agree that it was the starboard side dome that blew up, but it's quite possible the VFX composite shot was deliberately mirror-inverted to match with the alignment of the sSD in the other VFX and ultimately film scenes.

(Yes they should have then also mirror-inverted the A-Wings attacking the power tree, to avoid this little continuity error but that's another one the Special Edition didn't fix).

Now, why the port shield generator sphere constitutes the "bridge deflector shield", when they may still have a starboard shield generator sphere creates a question.

The next sequence on the large scale model shows indeed the metal shrapnel and carnage of the port shield generator, and some fire VFX are added. Looking closely at the starboard shield generator, one can see that while the physical model is intact - I.e., ILM did *not perform an additional pyrotechnics shot that physically destroyed that port-side part of the model, ILM *did add fire VFX so that the viewer could at least make sense of the claim that the (entirety of the) "bridge deflector shield" had been lost.

The entirety, because both port and starboard, master and slave, or round robin, or load sharing, or some other conception of redundancy and backup, are visually indicated to have been damaged, and their function destroyed even if not both of their physical structures.

There is a storyboard (need to find and post it later) that shows the Rebels firing at the aft section of the sSD conning tower, probably in an attempt to overload the two power trees located behind the conning tower (but sitting on the superstructure), so these would cease to provide energy for the rear deflector shield, so that the Rebels could target the power trees on top of the conning tower which fed the front deflector shields.

Somehow they managed to stop the starboard side power tree from channeling energy to the deflector shield protecting the power tree (!) creating the energy for the bridge deflector shield. Once the power tree providing the energy for the bridge deflector shield was destroyed (I'm confident the Imperial Starfleet kept the function of these power trees alternating when they built these ships), they Alliance was finally able to target the command bridge.

 

I messed up a line of argument while trying to fix a typo "part". Should be:

...etc.

I would not have thought of this business of which end of the SSD we're looking at. Finding quality images of sufficient resolution of the SSD's aft port flank is nothing I want to get into. When Ackbar looks down upon it and gives the order to concentrate fire, the entire SSD is in fact lit from its port side, which is to say, from the right, off screen. In the very next frame, the light source is from the right, off screen. It is entirely consistent just from lighting in this small time domain, for the sequence of the A-Wings attacking (and by extension the storyboard with the B-Wings) to represent the perspective looking back over its bridge superstructure along the SSD's fantail. In that scenario, using the logic I have outlined concerning how to determine a meridian, the sphere that is destroyed is then the port sphere. The A-Wings destroy the port sphere, whatever nomenclature that port sphere is going to be given. (A sensor dome? A reactor? A shield projector? Stay tuned.) That means by extension that the B-Wings in the storyboard also destroy the port sphere. That means that the two leading, adjacent film sequences are not inconsistent: Ackbar gives the order, the A-Wings follow the order, the port sphere is destroyed, and the next image of the bridge super structure indeed shows the shrapnel remainder of the port sphere.

So now what about that B&W image of the large model, that shows the destroyed sphere. Assuming that the B&W model is not horizontally mirrored, and does in fact represent the true handedness or chirality, then that must mean that both the sequences in the film were mirrored. When I get around to it, I will taxonomize the Mon Cal cruisers and give examples of enantiomers based on asymmetric features like bulges and a stalk. Just suffice that the film image of the port sphere being destroyed is a mirror image -is an enantiomer- of the real model with the starboard sphere destroyed.

Just a cautious observation: The angle on the fantail separating the flat hull-looking portions is more acute than the corresponding angle forward of the bridge. In case that helps make a better determination on which direction the A-Wings are attacking.

Another thing: To my eye the width of the superstructure upon which the sphere sits in the film is far larger than the width of the superstructure one imagines it should be just looking at the physical model. My first impression of this is that they did the filming of the explosion on a yet unseen third physical model that has a wiiiiiide base. For, when looking at the physical model, there is not room enough on the outside of one of those spheres to accommodate an additional entire sphere. But if you watch the film frame by frame, there is a great wide expanse that could house another sphere on either side. So I wager they used a dedicated VFX model specially designed for the pyrotechnics that would not alter or damage their film-worthy models. And images of it exist somewhere. And the model Lt. Hija is presenting is the one filmed to show the damaged sphere in its context, in a highly detailed medium / close up shot. But I predict that no pyrotechnics went off near that beautiful model. Rather, the damage and carnage of that sphere was carefully built by hand.

Ok, I went snooping around, and discovered what I might be after.

From:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html

I'll just go along with Saxton's statement that this image represents none other than the SSD's bridge tower.

What this tells me is that the VFX shot in the film is a composite of this pyrotechnics practical model, laid over top the background stern / fantail of the SSD large scale beauty model, and that these two elements are moving with respect to the background star field, and the pyrotechnics model is moving with respect to the fantail, so that the final visual motion exhibits a naturalistic change in perspective. I would then wager that someone spent some time getting that slight change in perspective to work before they worried about pyrotechnics.

LOL. And boom, now that I know explicitly what I am looking for, I can see in the film image, frame by frame, that the pyrotechnic model does flinch to the right immediately after the explosion, probably by virtue of Newton's equal and opposite reaction, and indeed comes off its alignment with the large model of the fantail.

 

Despite all the symmetry in the VFX conning tower model, there is a detail at the bottom which is not. I checked some genuine exhibt shots of the model and the (whole) picture first published in the Star Wars Chronicles (still a great book I highly recommend, but I prefer my Japanese first release edition because it doesn't bother me with this erroneous 5-mile-long-sSD nonsense...) and can safely state that the B&W image is not mirrored. Therefore the actual VFX shot in the film of the sSD's conning tower "going down" is mirrored.

Though I "hated" that you found another continuity error, we are definitely looking at the fantail section in the background of the exploding sSD dome. As you can see in the picture you illustrated the big dome was photographed in front of a blue screen, i.e. as a composite element to overlay a separately shot element of the top stern of the complete sSD VFX model: http://starwarsscreencaps.com/star-wars-episode-vi-return-of-the-jedi-1983/79/ . Notice the bluescreen lines around the dome and especially that we can see the end of the stern section. We are most definitely not looking forward, i.e. the A-Wings attacked that power tree from behind.

Here is a picture of the scenery from "farther away" just to get a feeling for the perspectives of top domes in relation to the stern section in that particular A-Wing attack shot:



IMHO, the final composite in the film clearly suggests that the A-Wings take out the starboard side power tree (in the picture the one on the left) and veer off to starboard, i.e. away from the ship. But ultimately that's just one of two possible interpretations of the scene, because of this:



This is the large VFX model of the dome exploding in "our" scene. The base plate extends way too much to the left (in the image) to fit on the top of any Star Destroyer, but other than that it correctly shows a port side power tree as those are closer to the front edge of the conning tower with the angled base plate correctly echoing the aft section.

And now we have a major discrepancy at our hands:

If we accept the A-Wing shot to show us the port side power tree (as suggested by the large VFX model of that power tree in the image above), then the super Star Destroyer superstructure in the background must belong to the forward section (which it clearly does not!)

If we accept on the other hand that the A-Wing shows us the starboard side power tree (as suggested by the stern section in the background), then the large power tree VFX model was shot from the wrong side, there should have been more space behind the power tree towards the rear!

Personally I prefer the latter interpretation, i.e. rather have an erroneous large VFX power tree model but a correct superstructure background and ultimately just mirror the shot, to be compatible with the mirrored shot of the large conning tower model going down.

I think the lighting issue is basically not that relevant. The sSD slowly (but surely) turns over towards the port side, ultimately illuminating the areas on the starboard side as it finally spins out of control.

 

I remembered recently where I was getting that the sphere was the shield generator. I used to play some addictive arcade-like Windows game by Bruno Marcos called Battle of Endor. That had you take out the bridge spheres before you could do any damage to the ISD. At any rate, Saxton makes useful arguments that these spheres probably represent sensor domes, and he cites a Cinefex or something original that gives a quote from an ILM person that these were radar.


I agree that the pyrotechnics model under consideration represents a port side bridge sphere. It is also lit from the right, same shadow lines, so that's consistent. I cannot pretend to know how the slope of the dorsal surface of the bridge tower affects the perspective vis-a-vis the non-slope of the city architecture that spans across the fantail. The pyrotechnics crew, shooting against uniform blue screen, certainly did not have to account for the slope of the dorsal surface on which the shield generator / radar dome / power tree stands. But whoever composited the final shot, beautiful as it is, to my eye completely forgot about that small detail, that there Is a slope. They lined up the floor surface of the radar dome / sensor dome with the horizontal city streets of the fantail. Again, I just did some frame by frame to examine how this changes, and the line of the edge remains parallel to the horizontals of the fantail, at least on the right side. I do not know of a similar, analogous dorsal slope that is reproduced down inside the city streets fore or aft of the bridge. Going from the B&W focus on the bridge tower, it doesn't look like there is any slope happening in the city streets that is anywhere near parallel to the dorsal slope of the bridge superstructure. Ergo, there is one error in that shot. I can reproduce it at will by scaling the 81 available frames. Perhaps I am missing something. So it looks to me like the model builders and pyrotechnics crew did what they were told, and produced VFX pyrotechnic footage of a port sphere exploding and viewed from the perspective of looking forward to the SSD's bow. But then in compositing someone used this footage instead and made it look backwards to the fantail. Well, that's an error, because the bridge superstructure has a wing-like extent to its rear. And then they also forgot to reflect the dorsal slope of either port Or starboard, and so what remains is a flat non-slope against a flat array of receding horizontals on the fantail, and it is up to my own eyes to figure which side of the meridian this sphere is on. I think it's right side, i.e., this is the port sphere, and the A-Wings/B-Wings swung to starboard. But I know a better determination can be made using maximally restored color and detail like with Mike Verta's frames.

As for lighting. I did not follow through on why I argued it. When Ackbar gives the order, and when the A-Wings attack, the lighting is consistently from the right, which is to say, from the SSD's port side. But skip ahead to when the SSD is now truly listing to port and diving. The light source is now from the left, off screen, or from the SSD's starboard. This in no way amounts to discontinuity because we know just from the Liberty that there will be illuminations from explosions. How long they last, how consistent their light, is a different and possibly uninteresting topic. The star of the Endor system was established to be upper right of the DSII and Endor upon dropping from hyperspace, and this presentation of the plunging SSD is consistent with that light source. I would assign light sources to not particularly constant. In short time domains they can support useful arguments. Like when the fleet drops from hyperspace, the backward view of the fleet correctly shows the light source - the star of the Endor system - as being to the upper left, off screen. I can force subsequent imagery of Mon Cal cruisers to abide by the light source of the star of the Endor system, but it may create an alignment problem. Some of the images have very stark lighting and it bears mention of how that affects the geography of the sequence. Other images are well lit from an apparently isotropic bath of illumination. (I really do not know how highly lit models are stitched in against barely lit models, or internally-lit models, but there is a wide variety of lightings and colorings, for the very same ship designs, in the entire battle.)

To touch on the lost pilots. How do you like the arguments Saxton makes about the attack on the spheres, which he assigns to sensor domes, as a consequence of a loss of shields, and for the unanswered question at hand, what exactly did Ackbar design for or intend when he said 'we have to give those fighters more time'. I can form a very nebulous picture that the destruction of the sensor domes was the highest priority so as to disrupt the SSD's capacity to see the map of battle, and specifically what the Rebel fighters, and TIE pursuers were doing. It is possible, as well, that Ackbar's line really doesn't mean anything specific, and can be interpreted as a nonsense bit of chatter. It *ought to mean something, being as it is so front and center.

 

The EU eventually ended up compromising with the dome itself containing sensor gear - but the vanes on top of the dome projecting the shield.

Given that Complete Locations is set to be reprinted for the newcanon with The Force Awakens locations in as well - we can fairly safely say that this will make it into the newcanon.

 

Hernalt

To provide a visual to illustrate what we are talking about, I prepared the corresponding screencaps. There is little I can add to your correct in-depth examinations, commendable "as usual" I should say. In the subsequent shot of the conning tower "going down" we can see that the port side remains in the dark and it's apparently the starboard side that is illuminated (at that stage), matching better the mirrored / mirror-inverted shot of the A-Wing attack above.

No matter which way we look at it, I think we can all agree that the composite shot with the large (exploding) VFX power tree, the stern section of the super Star Destroyer VFX model and the A-Wings and "laserblast" effects is messed up.

The way the power tree model is aligned with the stern section background (in the top, mirrored image) almost suggests a position in the center of the conning tower, but extending lines to the vanishing point would reveal that it's slightly orientated to the port side (but the starboard power tree should then by right outside the frame on the left side, leaving little space for the comscan array in the center).

Perhaps the deflector shield distribution sketch I made and will post later, could provide another hint how to interprete the A-Wing attack "correctly".

According to Cinefex # 13 the model makers did refer to the spheres on top of the conning tower as "sensor domes". But if that statement came from Richard Edlund I would take it with a lot of salt. After all he said that Death Star II was 500 miles in diameter (incorrect) and that the Death Star dish was firing "photon torpoedoes" at the Rebel ships.
Fact remains that compared to radar domes in real life, the spheres on top resemble these a lot.

As for their actual function as described in the genuine screenplay, the pilots test footage and ultimately the visual depiction in the film, I'll get to that later today.



I had wanted to save this storyboard sequence for later, but since we are talking about the issue right now, might just as well feature it ahead of time.

We can clearly see Rebel laserblasts or torpedoes impacting on the rear section of the super Star Destroyer's conning tower. The screen readout clearly shows the deflector shield distribution around the conning tower and the rest of the sSD. The shield that has just been impacted appears to have been compromised (little dots) and the two arrows appear to indicate physical damage to the rear of the conning tower.

P.S. Richard Edlund referred to those spheres on top as "radar domes", not "sensor domes".



So what are these spheres on top of the conning towers of Star Destroyers?

Richard Edlund thought these to be "radar domes" (adopted by Dr. Saxton), while EU claims these to be "shield generators".

IMO, neither interpretation ever satisfyingly explained what it was we actually saw in ROJ: Two A-wing fighters shot some laserblasts (not proton torpedoes) into one of the spheres which then exploded as if the laserblasts had hit a gas tank, resulting in an instant and violent explosion.

Assuming there would have just been mechanical components inside (i.e. radar or deflector shield projectors) the effect should have resulted in a carnage of shrapnel and debris, but not such an explosion.

Back in the 1970's there were two approaches to accomplish nuclear fusion, one with the doughnut shaped Tokamak (endless) fusion chamber or coil, the other one with laserfusion, i.e. shooting small hydrogen pellets into the center of a sphere, targeted by hundreds of lasers in the outer sphere to ignite the pellet in the center and causing a miniature H-bomb explosion from which to draw energy.

Fusion reactors produce a lot of heat that needs to dissipated, i.e. an exposed location is optimal to radiate waste heat into space and to jettison the reactor in case it's malfunctioning and about to overload. While the spheres on top of Star Destroyers resemble radar domes, they'd also resemble laserfusion reactors according to concept drawings for those of the mid-1970's.

What we see in ROJ is the sphere blowing up and a (the?) captain of the Emperor's super Star Destroyer reporting to Admiral Piett "Sir, we've just lost our bridge deflector shield".

There are only two pausible causes for this:

• The A-Wings just destroyed the device creating the bridge deflector shield (shield generator) or
• The A-Wings just destroyed the power source feeding the device that creates the bridge deflector shield (power generator)

I don't recall which EU contributor came up with the theory that the spheres are shield generators, but ultimately it's incompatible with what the G-canon ROJ novelization clearly suggested first, instead and (IMHO) rather explicitly. And this isn't something James Kahn invented but which comes straight from the additional dialogue screenplay sheet from February 25, 1982:

An Aide approaches.
AIDE Forward ships have made contact with the Imperial fleet.
Ackbar points to a Star Destroyer in front of them.

ACKBAR Concentrate on their power generators. If we can knock out their shield our fighters might stand a chance against them.

What we see in the final film are at least three scenes, that show Rebel fighters (or their proton torpedoes) attack the spheres on top of the Star Destroyer conning towers, in obvious efforts to destroy the "power generators" in order to "knock out their shields" (by depriving these of the energy they need to perform their functions).

Given their resemblance to abstract trees, it appears that in Rebel pilots' lingo these power generators are referred to as "power (generator) trees", because in the novelization and the pilot chatter of the test footage released in 2011 the pilots confirm that they start "the attack run on the main power tree".

The inevitable conclusion remains that the EU term "shield generator" must be short for "shield power generator", otherwise it's erroneous and should be dismissed in further publications.

The graphic on top (a quick and dirty sketch I made using an Avenger top view with the bridge complex of the Executor inside) reveals the purpose and rank order of the power (generator) trees on top of the Emperor's super Star Destroyer conning tower, the way I think ROJ suggested these to be:

1. (storyboards in previous post) The Rebels have either taken out the two power trees on the cityscape superstructure (providing the rear deflector shield for the conning tower) or stressed the aft shield to the point that they induced a shut down of these power trees.
2. The starboard power tree on the conning tower (providing the energy for the general conning tower front deflector shield) has apparently ceased to function because of the fire (also from the Rebel Star Cruisers) it got from the front or a crippling shot from the now open back.
3. The port side (or "main") power tree providing the energy for the critical bridge deflector shield, is no longer protected by the starboard side power tree, vulnerable and ultimately taken out by the two A-Wings that fire laserblasts and provoke a miniature thermonuclear detonation.

I'd imagine a similar mutual protection arrangement for the two power trees on top of regular Star Destroyers, yet one that doesn't follow a rigid but alternating scheme, i.e. once the Rebels attack an Imperial Star Destroyer they can never be certain which power tree powers which part of the deflector shields.

 

Remember when the shield projector on Endor in ROTJ goes up with a catastrophic boom? Because the actual power source generating the shield had been destroyed by those tiny Rebel charges?

The domes on ISDs may be like that, but shaped differently - they generate the power for the shield, in addition to projecting the shield - hence "shield generator" rather than just "shield projector".

 

Those "tiny" Rebel charges where placed in a control center open and close to the actual devices apparently belonging to the power system. Undoubtedly those charges set up a chain reaction that ultimately also consumed the deflector shield projector on the Endor moon.

If these were "shield generators" (i.e. their primary purpose is to create a deflector shield) I'm certain Ackbar would have said "shield generators" instead of just "power generators".

It then would have clarified their purpose, but as it stands their only known purpose is to create energy and power.

Or why don't the pilots say "deflector trees", but "power trees"?

It's the same in ESB, they only refer to "power generators" and these look like an array of half-buried tokamak fusion reactor doughnuts.

IMHO, we saw the power tubes feeding the bridge deflector shield already in ESB: These big overhead tubes above the control deck.

 

Lt. Hija That's a good image because it doesn't have the crushed blacks. The shadowed portion is clearly the nearer portion, and so, the sphere is on the port side. I'll assume this is off your DVD? Since this is a mirrored image, it is then the starboard sphere that is represented as destroyed in the pyrotechnics shot. So this image is an emergency measure I did not pursue, and it proves my initial determination was wrong. Your diagram seems to be telling me that there is an asymmetric coverage from the spheres, whatever they do. I would be more persuaded by coverages, of whatever principle, that are redundant and immediately fail over to each other.

My sense right now is that the facts that can be produced are on the table. It is important to showcase the Lost Rebels verbiage and try out some configurations. Saxton's 'radar dome' doesn't explain the explosion. Maybe there's a high powered transmitter in there. Frame by frame on the large scale pyrotechnics model reveals very thin, vertical, limited structure or scaffolding inside the sphere when it blows. I don't know what a "power tree" is. It is nearly poetic like a Buddhist koan. He did not say 'power distribution network'. I see a lot similar language in the novel, and some places where Khan dropped the ball as if he did not have a clear mental picture how Lucas' Lost Rebels dialogue should fit a greater picture. You can see Khan just parroting lines. He also drops the ball on how Lando's group approaches the main communications ship. Is it low or is it high? So it's hard to have a firm opinion yet on what the spheres are or do. I can probably most easily see Rebel fighters blinding the ISDs by taking out extremely high powered active sensors. There are precedents for multiple interpretations. The Mars Curiosity rover RTG is a power source that is exposed

For me, I think this would take a long term siege on the individual words Lucas chose. Every use of the word "power" in the OT has to be analyzed in context. Every "shield". Every "generator". Every "tree". Plus a far more intimate knowledge of ISD anatomy. Then applied to the visuals he chose, the spatial and temporal degree of continuity, and incorporating whether or not he was sacrificing either for the sake of an emotional continuity. It is possible by the end of ROTJ he did not care what he thought or knew those features were at one time - he simply needed to cue the viewer an emotional note, and the rest is WEG.

Right now I am working on discussions of each capital ship that is dealt with specifically in any resource. There's a bit to say about each. I am in the middle of the Home One class cruiser that is destroyed by the DSII. I have not yet encountered any need to address spheres on bridges. I'll continue working on that and present it if the coast is clear.

 

iphone, not formatting. i am in the middle of consideration of thr empire main communication ship. the relevant lost rebel lines including power tree occurs specifically in the context of thus particular ship. not in context if any other ship including ssd. in the film in a specific sequence of an isdlike ventrsl surface. someone has specilated this may be the vestiges of the empires main communications ship. there is also footage of a bridge tower superstruxture with more than one bridge eindow. tuis has been proposed as vestiges of the empire main communications ship. the jamming that lando and wedge cannot penetrate denotes a supremely powerful jamming source if reason has anythinh to fo eith the consumption. the dize of the ventral footage accords with ghe extreme jammng power required yo act at scales as large as we are led or suggested yo believe about dstwo. the key to the lost rebrls dislogue is the jamming is the two evidrnces in the film of a missing ship class. what is a power tree...... it is going to have to do with the ventral conceit.... the thermpire is jammed ng every eye the rebel fleet can bring to bear. a power tree has something to do with that. ackbars recommendation on how to attack tge isds is different. need resolution yo didcriminate between these two unique attacks. the lost rebels dislogue suggests a ship design that is materially different from a standard isd. the two footages in the gilm dupport this. sorry at a dog training thing.

 

Hernalt

The HD screencaps are from starwarsscreencaps.com, but I noticed that I have to treat each and every single one with "auto correct" to reconstruct close to orignal brightness levels.

Yes, the approach to the main communications ship (low or high) is somewhat unclear, I believe Mr. Kahn had to use his imagination dealing with what appears to be a favorite of George Lucas (reactors behind cargo bays...). IMHO, the six rectangular elements on the conning tower (left and right of the bridge section) are cargo or hangar bays (in ESB we see what appears to be a TIE twin-pod coming from one of these). So part of the reactor of the power tree might be just in the vicinity of the outermost bays.

IMO Lucas would not create unnecessary lingo. If the Rebels just went for an obscure "main power system" the pilots would have said so. But it says "power tree" which Lucas probably used to invoke an allusion to an abstract tree. Googling "abstract tree" I often get illustrations like that:



The only objects on a Star Detroyer resembling these shapes are the two domes on top of the conning tower, hence "power trees". Ackbar ordered the ships to target the Star Destroyers' power generators and "power tree" provided parts of the audience with a visual idea what these might have resembled, next we saw these being targeted in at least three VFX scenes.

The interesting thing, and it's not an ivention of Mr. Kahn, is the "larger" Star Destroyer:

118 EXT SPACE - AIR BATTLE
The two armadas, like their sea-bound ancestors, blast away at each
other in individual point-blank confrontations. A Star Destroyer
explodes. The Rebel victor limps away, its back half alive with a
series of minor explosions. The Rebel cruiser manages to move in next
to a second Star Destroyer before it explodes completely, taking the
Imperial Star Destroyer with it. The Falcon and several fighters attack
one of the larger Imperial ships.

Now, already in ESB the Executor was merely described as a "larger" Star Destroyer. I've therefore never been able to completely get rid of the suspicion that another sSD might have been involved before the final cut of the film. All the pilot chatter

"We're starting our attack run on the main power tree." / "I copy. Moving into position." / "Stay clear of their front batteries." / "It's a heavy fire zone down there." / "I'm in range." / "Right with you." / "I'm losing power." / "Get clear. She's gonna blow!" / "I'm on the leader." / "Stay away from those side guns." / "Heavy fire. I see it. Look out." / "Pull up! Pull up!" / "Stay close to the ground." / "Firing proton torpedoes." / "I've lost my main stabilizer. I can't pull out."

seemed to suggest an operation that would have been over in a second had they passed the average 1,600 m long Star Destroyer. With a capital ship 11 miles long that kind of pilot chatter would have made more sense:



My next thought was that all the extra pilot chatter belonged to an extended scene on the attack on the super Star Destroyer as featured in the film (perhaps Lucas' original idea) but then James Kahn's novelization would have reflected that.

Notice that the above and original scene description # 118 is from an earlier scene, and explicitly stated "The Falcon and several fighters attack one of the larger Imperial ships" yet in the scenes (in the final film) following that screenplay description - we don't see any of that! (a clear hint that this attack was deleted from the final film).

"All" we got was this:

Chapter Nine: The attack on the Emperor’s super Star Destroyer

The battle between the Rebel and Imperial fleet rages on. Several cruisers fire at the giant Super Star Destroyer.

There is excitement on the bridge as the battle rages on all sides.

ACKBAR We’ve got to those fighters time…Concentrate all fire on that super Star Destroyer.

(Italic section additional scene 126 A by February 15, 1982)

ACKBAR We’ve knocked out their forwards shields. Fire at the bridge.

Green Leader’s group swooped in low, from bottomside, up from the Death Star.

X-wings pilots head across the surface of the huge battleship.

GREEN LEADER Glad to help out, Home One. Firing proton torpedoes.

The Rebel pilot screams as his ship hits the Star Destroyer, causing a
huge explosion. The giant battle ship loses control, crashes into the
Death Star, and explodes.

The collision with the exploding Destroyer and the continued bombardment of the Death Star by Rebel cruisers leads to various systems breakdowns and general chaos. (It appears Mr. Kahn’s depiction was embellished, with the original screenplay depiction remaining unknown. The aforementioned depiction is a conjectural attempt to reconstruct a possible, original screenplay depiction)




The scene with Rebel Star Cruisers bombarding the Death Star was also featured in a segment of the moving storyboards or videomatics. Given the amount of shots Mr. Edlund had to forfeit on the Black Friday of 1982, probability is high that these VFX were composited but ultimately deleted.

Green Leader mystery

The final cut of Return of the Jedi established the A-Wing pilot played by Hilton McRae to be Green Leader. As such he was introduced at the beginning of the battle “Green Leader standing by”, had one line in the heat of battle “Three of them coming in, twenty degrees!” and delivered one of the most memorable performances of the entire space battle with his kamikaze yell when he crashed into the bridge of the super Star Destroyer.

In Cinefex # 13 Richard Edlund referred to the pilot who crashed into the bridge as “Mad Max”, yet the storyboard from January 11, 1982 shows a front view of this “Mad Maxx” character but in an X-Wing cockpit, telling us that by this time Maxx was still scheduled to be an X-Wing pilot.

It appears the shooting screenplay had been tailored first and foremost for X-Wing (and Y-Wing) pilots as neither “A-wing” nor “B-wing” fighters are mentioned at all during the space battle in Kahn’s novelization.
And the set builders in the UK had still no clue how to tell an “A-Wing” from a “B-Wing” apart, judging by the fact that a B-Wing cockpit had been mistaken for that of an A-Wing by late January 1982 (see Appendix).

Apparently George Lucas didn’t know (yet) how much A- and B-Wings he wanted to feature in JEDI at all, but by March 1982 he must have had made up his mind, otherwise he would not have just shot (at least) two actors in B-Wing cockpits, (only) three both in X- and Y-Wing cockpits, but a total of (at least) four in A-Wing ones (add to this that the ILM storyboards from April 1982 show several A-Wings along with Wedge and Lando skimming the Death Star surface).

And if the fighters were originally supposed to indicate to which group or squadron they belonged, the X-Wing style foil markings on Poppy Hands’ A-Wing pilot helmet suggested her being “Red Three” (continuity compliant with what we saw in the film) while the red brown markings on Hilton McRae’s helmet should have suggested that he was originally Red Two. It looks George Lucas created some extra options he could have made use of later in post-production.

Still, the “pilot chatter” test footage featuring Poppy Hands and an elderly lady (“Mom A-Wing”) made it clear that actress Poppy Hands spoke the same “Green Leader standing by” line as Hilton McRae. It’s fair to assume that all known A-Wing pilots, i.e. Poppy Hands (“Got it”), “Mom A-Wing”, Michael Drew (“Copy Gold Leader”) and Hilton McRae all “applied” for the position of Green Leader during the pilot chatter recording session on March 10, 1982 (disregarding what helmet markings they might have or not).

Remembering that both Dave (Red Leader) and Pops (Gold Five) in NEW HOPE had been older veterans, it would not have been unusual to consider an elderly lady (“Mom A-Wing”) or the older actor Michael Drew (“Jake Farrell”) to become “Green Leader”, add to this that neither “Mom A-Wing” nor “Michael Drew” had markings on their A-Wing helmets (does a group or squadron leader really need those?).

According to Kahn’s JEDI novelization
1. Green Leader reported “Green Leader standing by”
2. Green Leader participated and died in the attack on the jamming Star Destroyer
3. Green Leader participated in the Death Star reactor run and split to head back to the surface
4. Where he ultimately helped out in the attack on the super Star Destroyer and crashed into its bridge

What looks like a continuity error at first (how can a dead pilot participate in the subsequent attack), seems to be clarified by the example of Blue Leader. Blue Leader died in the same attack as Green Leader (by colliding with a TIE fighter), but as “Blue Wing” he was apparently replaced by Blue Two as the new leader of Blue Squadron. So obviously another pilot became the new Green (Group) Leader (but in the final edit retroactively from the very beginning).

Quite possible that Michael Drew (or “Mom A-Wing”) was originally scheduled to crash “into the front batteries” of the jamming Star Destroyer, but the moment that Lucas discarded this whole scene Green Leader came back to life. He could now join the Death Star reactor run, and remain in the final edit (“Copy Gold Leader”). According to the original intention he would have further joined the attack on the sSD once having returned to the surface, but we know nothing about Drew’s kamikaze yell performance.
Quite possible that Lucas preferred McRae’s performance, instead, and retroactively promoted him to Green Leader. Thus, any timing problem was circumvented and McRae had all the time (above) to participate in the attack on the super Star Destroyer, nevertheless now as “Green Leader”, not only substituting the original, but deleted sacrifice of the original Green Leader, but ultimately taking his place from the very start.

Curious: In Brian Daley’s JEDI radio drama Lando orders Red Two to peel off and head back for the surface! Unfortunately it is unknown what materials Brian Daley had at his disposal.

 

I'm pretty sure that Lt. Hija and I will create destructive interference on the topic of 'leader' vs 'wing', and on the topic of 'power tree' vs 'sensor dome'. Material exists outside these specific sub topics.

I. One small point regarding the ship implied by the conning tower with a number of bridges

From:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pride_of_Tarlandia/Legends

False. Someone did not follow through to reject their wishful thinking. There is *no "larger blob visible in distant views of the battle" that can also be "a possible representation of this vessel". Anyone with a media player who can go frame by frame, and take window captures of the configuration of the ships, will see without needing to consult anyone, let alone "http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pride_of_Tarlandia/Legends", that there are only a single handful of frames where there is any overlap of a Rebel cruiser and a Star Destroyer, where there is any blob which temporarily lends the appearance of a larger type of Star Destroyer. Anyone who puts the time in and follows through with the research and pushes through every frame to the last available frame will observe without a shred of ambiguity that it is two distinct ships. They approach, they smear into an elongation, that elongation gets shorter to the length of the larger, that elongation extends back to a maximum which is a sum of lengths, and that elongation splits back/resolves back into its composite parts. (Google "Diffraction Airy disk Rayleigh criterion".) Further examination will reveal that the Rebel cruisers are on some kind of transparent surface, probably tiny paintings on glass, being slid very slowly against another surface with Imperial ships.

I do not know if Saxton actually endorses an idea that the "Empire's main communications ship", and therefore its length, *is seen from the Emperor's throne room. But he justifiably acknowledges another contributor for the logic that it strongly *ought to be visible from the Emperor's throne room.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/warships.html

An open question is whether or not a larger, longer "Empire's main communications ship" could be off screen, out of the frame of the view available to Luke in the throne room, and still within the 'light cone', or, accessible, to the Rebel fighters. Basic reasoning says, 'No, Luke is far enough away that all ships relevant to the battle are visible to him.' Another open question is *when the throne room view of the fleet was composited. It may have been later in the VFX stage, after intentions of a "main communications ship" had been ruled out.

II. A larger point regarding this ship

Saxton claims

False. Saxton did not follow through on his first impressions, or, did not follow through to reject his wishful thinking. The conning tower had *not already suffered serious damage. Frame 0 to 27: The conning tower remains not visibly damaged. Frame 28: the first blaster bolt of an approaching X-Wing strikes one of the proposed subordinate (lower port) bridges. Frame 39: A TIE explodes and the pyrotechnics are in a foreground layer. Frame 73: An object streaming in from upper left strikes the support struts of the starboard sphere tower, possibly a flaming fighter that crashes. Meanwhile, the "flame" caused by the X-Wing in the lower port bridge is growing steadily.
From:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/dagger.html#commship

The novel says the "Empire's main communications ship" had *already been through battle with a cruiser. The film itself does not specify that this particular conning tower, an undoubtedly new design, *has already been through battle. None of this contradicts that the new conning tower as presented *could be the "Empire's main communications ship."

III. The film presents some Star Destroyer that is longer than usual.

Timeline:
Mid/Late 1982: Story board concept artwork, "SB54", which means "Space Battle 54"

From:
http://www.thepropgallery.com/joe-johnston-storyboard-concept-artwork
Notice sale price of L495.00.

Sep 14, 1982: Actual production Story Board "SB55", which means "Space Battle 55"

From:
https://airandspace.si.edu/exhibitions/star-wars/online/sw-unit15.htm


From:
http://www.taringa.net/post/imagenes/2368303/Exhibicion-Star-Wars.html

May 25, 1983: The film itself reveals an apparent ISD surface that is new, longer, and, with respect to every other foreground image available in the film of the time, reflective of an upper, dorsal surface. Without me going back and setting up my DVD to see the unaltered original ROTJ, I can use LFL's omission in the ROTJ SE to illustrate a caveat. The final view of the fleet against Endor, Lando's view, is an SE alteration. And here I simply chalk up Lucas artistic license for where the fleet is, not unlike how Luke could see the port side of the Imperial fleet and starboard side of the Rebel fleet from the Emperor's throne room. Frame by frame shows on the right side of the frame no less than five Mon Cal cruisers that are upside down with respect to the rest of the fleet. Ok, that's the SE - can I assume LFL screwed up in their attempts to revision everything and steal my childhood? Well, the penultimate view of the fleet, when Wedge escapes, did *not get the SE treatment in the SE and remains original. It has total fewer ships, and unmistakably, on the right hand side of the frame, are two Mon Cal cruisers that are upside down with respect to the rest of the fleet. So this is an acknowledgment that upside down capital ships exist in the earliest release. Were they visible to 'anyone at all'? Of course not. Try doing frame by frame analysis by VCR at television resolution, I say from the comfort of 2016.

May 1983: ROTJ novelization is released. ROTJ Illustrated version is released some time in 1983.
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Return-ILLUSTRATED-StarWars/dp/B002Z08JJM

Here is an image. Make note of the specific use of definite as opposed to indefinite articles.


From: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/novels/rotj.html

Here is the complete passage from the ROTJ novelization:

So now, fast forward to a different millennium, different century, different decade.


IV. "Tector"-class ISD.

April 2, 2005. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross-Sections is published. Author Curtis Saxton.
According to http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tector-class_Star_Destroyer,

I do not own this publication. I will take the word of wikipedia that some cross section exists in this publication that uses the word "Tector" and has a corresponding cross section.

Sept 25, 2005. Last update time stamp of the page, http://www.theforce.net/swtc/dagger.html whose heading is "Warships of the Empire".
Under the heading "[anonymous star destroyer #5]", Saxton pronounces

In in rare event that someone consuming the film and the innumerable precedents laid down in three films to date lead them to a conclusion other than what Saxton is asserting, he provides an alternative means of persuasion by following that up with,

May 5, 2006. Leland Chee "confirms" that the "hangarless" ship in ROTJ was "indeed" a Tector class.
According to http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tector-class_Star_Destroyer,

The following image is offered in support of this confirmation.

{ File name: http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net...viathan.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20051215155039 }
From:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tector-class_Star_Destroyer/Legends#cite_note-6

*** Intermission. Musical movement. ***

V. Wut.

This thread has so far proceeded on the interpretation that the novelization records a palimpsest of intent that precedes the final offering in film. And so while the film carries a higher degree of canonicity, the novel, where it is not contradicted, carries a degree of canonicity that is lower than the film. Lt. Hija's purpose for the thread is restoration of an intent concerning "Lost Rebels" and rejected footage using historical sources. I can achieve my own slightly different purposes, a fuller space battle of Endor experience, by the same mechanism, use of historical sources. So the canonicity of intention at the time, during production, is the relevant currency. What weight does modern retellings or modern castings bear towards that mission?

Go back to the image with the red outline. Note, careful reader, how helpfully the title of the image instructs and guides your thinking, so that you may not stray off the path of an alternative, or even contrary interpretation. Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Note also how helpfully the obvious unavoidable glaring truth has been outlined in red so that you don't mistakenly read the entirety of the passage and get an incorrect impression. Again, make note of the specific use of definite as opposed to indefinite articles. Note how the red outline interacts with the use of definite articles. The reader should ask themselves, What is the intended total geometry of the passage, as written in 1982 or 83, before there was a thriving future game industry that depended on proliferation of star destroyer types? What does the word "skimming" conventionally mean? How about "over"? How about "surface"? How about "the"? How about "spin"? How about "careened"? How about "around"? How about "belly"? How about "the"?

I cannot determine myself the timing precedence between SB 54 and James Khan receiving script materials to compose his novelization. I leave it to common sense for the consumer of SB54 to correctly arrive at the conclusion that it depicts a Star Destroyer that is by convention upright. The conning tower is pointing up, consistent with master shot views of the Imperial fleet which occur twice, and with long shots of the Imperial/Rebel fleet from the throne room, which (I leave this to the reader) do not contain any Imperial ships with a conning tower pointing down. I will thoroughly understand that many readers will look at, or flip a cursory glance at, SB54 by itself and say, "Well, that's not a different ship from a regular ISD. It does not appear to be larger, or longer, and does not by itself suggest anything to think that it represents an 'Empire's main communications ship'". This would definitely be a problem for anyone who tried to insist that just because SB55 resembles and in fact refers to the relevant scene 117 ("117-2a"), and that just because scene 117 in the final film does in fact show an extremely long ISD-like surface, that the preceding SB54, which does not possess the degree of canonicity of an actual storyboard, let alone that of a sequence of film frames, should indicate an extremely long (one ISD-long) dorsal surface of a new class of star destroyer. That cannot be asserted, and I do not assert that. (For reference, scene 120 on call sheets is the attack on the 'Empire main communications ship'.)

Can it be ruled out? The surface the MF flies over is long, and it resembles the underside of an ISD such as is seen in SW77. It is a modified surface. Where the surface in SW77 had a hangar, the surface in ROTJ has flat greeble. Where the surface in SW77 had a bulge, the surface in ROTJ has flat greeble.

Someone shall reasonably object, "Yeah, but concept art for a storyboard will not have the same degree of detail or likeness as a storyboard." This is hard to counter because there are not a large amount of concept art drawings, particularly by Joe Johnston, that are clearly labeled with a story board number. In the "Space Battle" series, SB63 is shown earlier in the thread. The foreground objects do receive a representative treatment, and the degree of representation perhaps declines with increasing depth into the picture. I have a SB5 which shows fighters heading for DSII, having dropped from hyperspace.


From:
http://www.propbay.com/original/rou...vi-return-jedi-1983-film-production-4365.html

Compare SB54 to the two other film-era ISDs, in an equivalent slight profile frontal view. I won't tell anyone what to see, and I won't outline anything in red.

Avenger ISD-II class

From:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Avenger

Devastator ISD-I class

From
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Devastator

Now *if you see something worth noting, combine it with the sequence of frames from the new class of conning tower that has the multiple bridges. Hint: The ILM production model rests on the table on the base of the neck.



Can someone assert that SB54 represents one of the previously known types, like Devastator or Avenger, and dust their hands of the matter by pointing to the fact that "SD" means, without a doubt, "Star Destroyer"? Yes they can. The strongest defense of that assertion is the low resolution of concept art, especially at greatest depth in the picture. That argument would mean that the intent of SB54 was detached from the final frames of the film in scene 117, where the dorsal forward surface of this ship is as long as the keel of a Devastator. (I read one interesting interpretation, which I cannot know is wrong, that the ISD-long surface was ILM's way, or Lucas' way, of making the fighters look smaller and more outmatched.)

So if the "Empire's main communications ship" did exist in intent for some period between the build up of story content in the early part of 1982 and then the massive pruning of story content during the latter part of 1982, the date on SB55 (Sep 14, 1982) provides a late limit to the intentions of sticking with representing a "main communications ship". The novel sets a sequence of passages, and the novel's passage with the main communications ship occurs *after the passage where the film is representing the MF flying low over a long ISD-like surface. The story board says shot sequence "117-2a", which indicates scene 117, which in the film lines up with the novel's passage that refers to 'the giant, floating Imperial Star Destroyers' (as a class) and 'the Imperial leviathan' as an unremarkable individual specimen of that formerly stated group.

So the novel itself, which (Lt. Hija and I) are predicting echos an earlier, fuller conception of battle, makes no special mention of a particular Star Destroyer that is especially large or noteworthy in the passage that is used, in 2005 up through 2015 and beyond, to support the existence of an especially large or noteworthy Star Destroyer class. But the film itself, which we know was heavily revised, does touch on the general sensation of a MF 'going in low over some SD' by placing a scene of a MF going in low over a very long ISD-like surface exactly where in the novel there was *no such mention of a very long ISD-like surface or of a very large ISD-class. But the novel *did have a section where there *was an especially large or noteworthy Star Destroyer class, and that section did *also have the general sensation of a MF 'going in low over some SD'. That was, in the film, regarded as scene 120.

Without accounting for all the SB numbers, it is difficult to just assume that SB54 and SB55 meant, and only meant, from the very beginning, the sequence in the novel that the film places them in. It is a tedious pretension to think that the images represented on SB54 and SB55 were originally labeled with a higher SB number, and that Joe Johnston physically sketched out copies, and re-labeled them SB54 and SB55, instead of crossing out the higher numbers and writing the lower new numbers. I cannot know that's impossible or unlikely until I see enough sample size of concept art story board.