The Mandalorian The Mandalorian 2.08 - Chapter 16 (Season Finale!!) - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Ben is currently 4 in the Mandalorian so I’m guessing 5 more years or so until he trains with Luke

 

I'll post this here in addition to the Marvelization thread. It highlights the conflicted feelings I have towards this finale quite well, and gives a warning of what could be coming as we continue along this storytelling path. It's a bit on the long side, but if you have the time, it's well worth it. Just glaze over some of the spelling and grammar errors and focus on the content. It's very well thought out.

Film Crit Hulk - The Mandalorian - Chapter 16 - The Rescue
https://www.patreon.com/posts/45178874

 

I don't think they cheated by bringing in Luke. The intent all along was for Grogu to make a connection with a Jedi, and for that Jedi to show up and collect him. That the Jedi in question happens to be Luke, is a bonus not a bug. They could have gone for a deepcut and brought in a relative nobody like Ezra or Kyle Katarn, or even Kal Kestis, but they kept it pure and brought in the biggest name they possibly could. I respect it, because it adds to the overall mythos. Now we all know who Luke's first student was. Very cool. Now we also have the mystery of wondering what became of him. That's a bone we'll get to chew on for years.

Ordinarily, I'd find it irritating that the Jedi have so thoroughly been inserted into what I'd hoped would be an exploration of Star Wars without them. It hasn't escaped my notice that the this thread has people talking more about Luke than the titular Mandalorian. But, I think that the way the Jedi have been handled in the series thus far has been with a deft touch. They're adding to the tale without overwhelming it, and with Grogu out of the mix, everyone's now finally in their own corner of the galaxy. The remaining questions we have regarding the force is, what has the Empire done with Grogu's blood?

 

Axe Woves actor hinted that we’ll find out why he wasn’t in this episode

 

yeah, film crit hulk nailed it. This episode sucked.

 

Don't know if this has been bought up (this thread has moved so fast), but someone on Reddit made a cool discovery. Bib Fortuna is holding his staff from his original Kenner toy counterpart:

 

Not that I think he can even move

 

Well, as with the Vader in Rogue One thing, I don't think the Luke stuff was bad, but it is, in both cases, sort of unfortunate that it sucks the oxygen out of the story at hand (and that's a bigger problem on R1 than it is here, honestly, because, well, it's just one self-contained film). To me, once Luke appears, it's just... happening, it's cool, it fits the story and all that, but I'm still more interested in all the rest of it. I absolutely loved both the confrontation on the shuttlecraft at the very beginning, and the hot Mando-on-sorta-Mando action in the bar, Din and Gideon in the brig, the ever-more-interesting Fennec, and every damn thing about Bo Katan, and Din all the way. I think this season has been absolutely brilliant at bringing shades of grey and nuance into Star Wars without going all inappropriately "grimdark" or getting in the way of the action or the emotional core, both of which have been superb. The Luke appearance, like R1 Vader... once it's been absorbed as a thing that happened, other stuff in this story will be discussed more and mean more going forward.

And I think Katee's performance is perfect. Gina's flat and amateurish, but Katee is the absolute embodiment of her character here and she's totally mesmerizing, to me.

Edited to add, regarding Bib: I really appreciate also that with the weight gain, Bib's explicitly designed to resemble Orn Free Taa, making it ever so slightly more plausible that OFT is actually a Twi'lek and didn't become one via some weird retcon.

 

Ok I stand corrected; he was born. But of course he was far too young to be anything of importance at this time.

 

Film crit hulk is a piss poor wannabe film critic he was bad at Birthmoviesdeath when him and his buddy Devin Faraci consistently spewed nonsense on a weekly basis and he’s just as out of touch now.

 

Correct. Only like 4-5 he was born basically the same time as Jakku.

 

I got both extremely giddy and the very emotional pretty much in lockstep with these guys.

 

I gave it a shot. I could not finish it. Im sorry for being rude but I don't have a different way of saying it. Theres an intentional ignorance in this writing.

 

Hulk loved Luke’s characterization in the last Jedi so his take is hardly surprising.

 

I loved Luke in TLJ but I also loved Luke here that’s because I like it when characters change for better or worse, but that’s a discussion for another thread

 

Luke's characterization was no different than the OT. Ever since we were introduced to him, he was always an intensely emotional person who took everything to heart and had a tendency to react in the extreme to setbacks. (It wasn't necessarily intended that he become an actual Jedi, only that he become a weapon the surviving Knights could use to assassinate the two Sith.) He got bored living in the boonies so he wanted to become an Imperial pilot. Then he wanted revenge against the Empire for killing his foster parents so he became a Jedi apprentice. (EXTREMELY unhealthy/unwise basis for pursuing this path knowingly manipulated into it by a cunning old man.) THEN he wanted to Kill Vader to avenge the old man, THEN while still fostering these incredibly unhealthy attachments, he got battered in his duel physically and mentally. THEN, his solution became suicide! Die with his father and the Emperor, everyone else lives happily ever after. Vader intervenes, and Luke survives almost accidentally.

Basically, are we that surprised that the revenge driven, suicide-idealist decided that ending his life in bitterness while in the middle of nowhere was a suitable outcome for failing as a teacher? Luke has always been a man of extremes. Look past his good press and see him for who he was.

 

Interesting. I found it to be a pretty valid and nuanced analysis. I'm curious what you mean by intentional ignorance. He seems pretty open-minded and like he takes in several sides, but I'm open to having my mind changed on this.

 

I've written my own (creative?) reaction to this episode. If you've got the time, I'd love some feedback or push-back. I know it needs work, but here it is anyway...

 

Revenge driven, suicide-idealist is absolutely not how I would characterize Luke and I don't feel like I'm alone in that assessment. The lengths that people go to justify his character in TLJ honestly feels like major reaching to me, I'm sorry.

 

I just think about how mercurial I can be from one week to the next, and the depths of despair that I myself sometimes fall into, and it's not hard to imagine how Luke could go from a galactic hero to a world-weary hermit in the span of 20+ years. I'm sure he set up his Jedi order in earnest, but like most things, once they become your job, it's easy enough to start slipping after the initial high and passion.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but that it's easy enough to infer. Of course, all of this happens off-screen, so we don't know for sure. I hope we get some book material in the future that explores this time of Luke's life a lot more.

 

How old is Ben supposed to be in TLJ when he goes on his murderous rampage? Maybe Grogu's got some time to get out of that doomed Jedi academy...

 

Pretty old I would say 23 or 24

 

Apart from the fact that this is quite the stretch for Luke's life after ROTJ and that it requires severe mental exercise, the idea of "some" Luke students turning to the dark side is problematic in its core, and was only added retroactively, to try (and fail) to justify how Mark Hamill appears in TLJ. How on earth would you have not just one, but multiple people joining the dark side from within the same group? Somehow the Jedi had trained more than one million Jedi over the course of a thousand generations without a SINGLE one of them turning to the dark side, but Luke got like 4-5 to do that? Wow, talk about bad luck eh?

Dude, he closes his eyes because he knows he will lose it and we ll have a waterfall of tears. How beautiful was that?

This. It shows extremely well planned and executed film making. Somehow many knew or suspected we will get Luke, and the internet is STILL filled with reactions of people that cried their hearts out. Now that's what I call quite the feat. And The Mandalorian does this so well. You know at a conscious level that everything will be alright, and yet it is made so well that in every episode you feel the agony.

This. It did not bother me one bit. And it would certainly not be my first comment about it.

This is an amazing analysis as always, I love it.

A 40 year old that has gone through a life of bounty hunting, probably a lot of injuries and replacement of skin grafts, let alone through the acid filled belly of a huge beast, probably would look like a 60 year old.

This. And This.

It was amazingly well done. Din sees Grogu. Grogu touches the screen. Then turns to the door. Din trusts Grogu. He knows they're safe.

Coska Reeves would have been expendable. I think it would have been better if she had died, to raise the emotional stakes more.

This is literally the worst Luke characterization I have ever seen, and I have watched TLJ.

I hate giving negative feedback, I really do, but it seems to me that you are awfully mistaken about how this episode will stand in time.
I think people will always and forever cherish this show and this episode. Like they have been doing, and increasingly so, with The Clone Wars.



^ This is what happens when you are not on your computer for 16 hours.

 

@DarthFixxxer I know the majority of the fandom will remember this episode fondly. And that’s cool. I loved parts of it in a vacuum, as well as part of the larger story. I’m just conflicted on whether or not I like the fan-servicey route the series might be going.

 

Another equally valid perspective is that Johnston actually applied Zen aesthetics beyond the superficial level that certain members of the western audience were accustomed to. It's one thing to say that the creation of the Jedi were inspired by Lucas' interest in Zen Buddhism and Samurai films, because on a superficial level, Buddhist samurai are like totally cool! They swing swords around, and meditate, and are loyal, unstoppable bad asses!

But by having Luke actually behave like a Samurai, that's when people lost the plot. Because a samurai knows the importance of actual atonement. It isn't and will never be enough to merely say that you are sorry. You have to display it sincerely and offer a genuine act of contrition. Luke cutting his belly open would have been on brand but too much for the audience. Luke choosing to live in meditative isolation, however, is also in keeping with a disgraced vassal choosing to move on. This contradicts western ideals of heroism, where the "wronged" hero has to avenge himself immediately in order to right a perceived injustice.

Japanese audiences got it right away, and they dug it. (There's a reason why they loved TLJ enough to turn it into an actual Kabuki play.)

So, whether you see Luke as an emotionally unhinged person prone to making rash decisions, or the epitome of tragic Samurai dealation, both aspects hold equal validation, and I respect a sincere belief in them more than "He was cooler in the 80's!"