Lit The Morality of Empire in Legends

@vncredleader

Thank you!

I'm always fascinated by the evolution of the storytelling of Star Wars throughout the ages, the tropes being used the differences in decades, the way the culture has influenced the way we portray the various aspects of the storytelling from the way we portray the galaxy, the empire, the rebellion, even the characters themselves.

The only thing I can compare it to is comparing Golden Age to Silver Age to Bronze Age of Comics.

(Guess then we have Marvel, Bantman, and early/late Del-Ray in terms of books, then with comics it's Marvel (Again) vs Darkhorse vs Late Marvel/IDW ;p)

I find it fascinating.


Edit: I'd honestly love more Canon/Legends compare and contrast threads but sadly I know it would just lead to "One is better than the other" which isn't objectively true for it's all different, hence why I wouldn't start one.

 

For sure, I dont think we would have gotten Dark Times for instance if the Iraq war was not in full effect. Much like how the Bronze Age becomes undeniable as Vietnam gets more and more attention and is unavoidable

 

I would say HoT is where the rot really set in, when he became more about showing the Empire as this kind of 'worth opponent' and the NR as dumb and weak and just useless.

Which is some post-NJO runs with. As well the Legacy comic issue 42 says "millitary who are loyal to a regime committing genocide, then they MUST stay loyal, to their regime". This is something I cannot understand, the idea that loyalty to a genocidal regime is in and of itself a good thing.

Yes there was some action, but Star Wars is an action franchise, so that goes with the territory.

So they are like the USSR.

The USSR that committed genocide in Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

That massacred surrendered Polish officers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre#:~:text=The Katyn massacre was a,in April and May 1940.

that crushed pro democracy protests in the eastern block

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956#:~:text=The Hungarian Revolution of 1956,October until 10 November 1956.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring

and everything they did during their invasion of Afghanistan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War

They are still not a regime that offered good to the world.

But even playing that forward, post USSR Russia is not a good international actor or a democratic/human rights respecting nation.

Do you mean in the movies or supporting material?

There is no more sexism, and less racism as well.

They still commit genocide, but how we define evil has changed, but also how they want to show the Empire has changed.

The Empire is (unfortunately) the most marketable part of Star Wars so it seems like Lucasfilm want to play down the sexism part of the Empire, while also keeping them evil.

Canon does play up the destruction of Alderaan as a key moment and one of the water shed moments, that the second Death Star and cinder are all shown to be events that cause all but the most hard core Imperials to see how evil the government is.

So if he were in Canon Pellaeon would be see as a pure evil Imperial fanatic.

 

@AusStig

I suppose supporting material of both Legends and Canon since movies are well...always gonna be movies.

But i suppose maybe the real analysis should be how we portray the Empire throughout the era's

How the 70-80's Empire compares to the 90's compare to 2000's and late 2000's

For example Dark Times is influence but the Iraq War so I suspect very much a "War on Terror" like occupation for in terms of what "The Empire is written like" which is something we see a lot in Rogue One for example.

 

Yeah Gareth leaned right in with making the Empire the US on Jedha. I think the Nazi or Napoleon parallels dont work so well cause you have decades and centuries of after the fact litigation and narrative building. RO is so amazing cause it does not just make the empire a broadly fascistic threat, but rather aligns it with asymmetric warfare and overt resource wars. It kinda peels back the sith and the ideological front to fascism and showcases the largest factor for the empire's actions same as the actions of Germany or the US; securing capital and wealth.

The stormtroopers don't seem brainwashed nor fanatic, but more like actual soldiers occupying, looting, etc with the ideological line the empire uses having no place there. much like how the "Iraqi freedom" thing was for us back home and had **** all to do with what we did there and the pretense was dropped the moment you leave the US shores.

By making the rebellion dirtier they actually make the cause feel more just. It is not just an overwhelming evil they are facing, but rather an all to familiar evil, behind the scary or goofy fanaticism is a line of thinking horrifying in how utterly unremarkable it is in history. The empire is on another scale, but like with the Nazis you look closer and see something that is only an iteration and more industrialized version of say America in the Philippines mere decades prior.

 

Sounds like you already have your views.

In the 70's and 80's the Empire were the bad guys, very much a BIG evil Empire, mush like the USSR was seen in the US at the time.

Then in the 90's there was more a push to make the Empire be 'good people' who just happen to be against the heroes, since in the 90's there wasn't a real 'enemy nation' Russia was seen as a friend at the time and China was also considered to be moving in a good direction. So the conflict shifted away fighting an evil empire, to fighting smaller radical forces and 'good people serving a bad regime', much like the German armed forces were thought (wrongly) to be in ww2.

In the 2000s, well NJO is seen as a reflection of the times, but other than being 'an other' they Vong (and CIS) are a return to the old 'evil empire' force from the 70's and 80's. These are big forces.

The portrayal of the Empire seems to think that the Empire was made up of good people.

The GA is given the full 'war on Terror', police state treatment post NJO, but the Empire keeps getting whitewashed, the books act like the Empire always had a lot of good people who stayed with it even after all the atrocities.

In the new 10s and disney, there is a new view, that loyalty to evil is evil. Which is the inverse of what the old EU said.

 

All interesting and fascinating answers.

But I suppose to get back to the heart of this question on "Morality" of the Empire

For me I don't think their is necessary a "wrong" way to portray the Empire in a sense, so long as you stick the root of it all that the Empire are still well...Bad at the end of the day. Sure you have your personal preferences on what way the Empire/First Order are portrayed and what you think is interesting and that's all well and good.

So long as the moral messages and what you wanna lean into is still that for all the nuances and real world parallels and such, the Empire in any form it takes, it's still a bad organization, like's try for something better.

That's pretty much my standard, is Empire is bad, how you portray it can differer between director or what exactly you wanna lean in, but as long as they are still bad then I'm good.


And then I guess you get into a whole different argument I've had with people on whether you view Star Wars as documentary or Story.

In fact I'll actually use Edwards as a example, for not only is he known for a Documentary style of filming, shaky cam and all, one could argue that his "Star Wars Story" does treat Star Wars more like a documentary, and that the Empire as we see it on Jedda, is far more..."Realistic" of an Imperial Occupation. Compared to the Heightened Reality of both the Saga Film and even Solo to an extent.

Not saying you can't explore deep themes with heightened stuff like Resistance but I defiantly put in the "Heightened Reality" storytelling frame of Star Wars, storytelling.

But Rogue One in certain parts feels like the "Documentary" style of viewing the Star Wars universe than it's a setting to tell stories, especially on Jedda.

I mean yes Rogue One tells a story I'm not saying it doesn't but stories can be told in various different styles, methods etc etc. ... Mace Windu doesn't punch droids like he would in 2D Clone Wars, just saying

 

I never thought of it like that but...yeah the Jedha stuff feels like Abby Martins' "Gaza Fights for Freedom"

 

I still firmly believe that in the context of the GFFA, a benevolent monarch is the best hope for lasting peace.

Take Jacen when he achieved oneness, or someone with that understanding, wisdom, and power, and sit him or her on a throne. Forever.

You would have everlasting peace. The eternal monarch.

 

Sure, never said anything else. I just wanted to say that while the empire is astetically clearly based on the Nazis they aren´t really like them in many ways. They are more a generic military dictatorship that adopts, bends and disregards ideological believes and pratices depending on the situation.

Who is to say that an eternal monarch never changes? Maybe eventually goes insane by the sheer weight of time. And lets keep in mind that the force is not nessesary as benevolent as the Jedi like to think. If Kreia is at least partially right, and there seem to be quite a bit of evidence supporting this, then a monarch one with the force might not be benevolent at all. Just think where his one moment eventually lead Jacen, into blind faith in the force and his ability to use it. To the point that a few vague visions where enough to drive him into darkness and death.

 

But isn't that the issue here, that some authors DON'T do that, they show the Empire as good, as good if not better than the NR.

 

Yes, and that's why I have a problems with those authors.

For me like I said it's the KIND OF BAD, that we portray the Empire, but as long as it's bad, your still okay at least in my book..

Like that's why the portrayals of the Empire (So long as they are still bad guys) don't bother me as much as they used to because I realized, I don't see Star Wars a documentary, or a "REAL" place but more a location to tell stories in.

It's probably why Rogue One is unique because it's the closet movie that wants to show "This is what a documentary in the Star Wars universe" is like.

And why I'm not saying tales can't have nuances or representatives for things, I'm not as bothered if Stormtroopers are just the goons for the evil villains because...that's just the tale they wanna tell in this setting. If its not your thing, that's totally cool, I get it, we all have our taste.

But I don't do a "One Size" fits all motif for Star Wars.

Do I want more nuances stories going into a "Grittier" (I hate this word) rebellion and maybe just normal soldier Stormtroopers, sure that's all cool. But I don't need everything to be that.

It's sorta taking everything made on it's own terms instead of what you the audience want it to be. Again if a style is not your thing that's cool, and I'm not saying you can't have interesting nuances in even the more lighter made things. But I don't think it's wrong per-say. Just different.

And hopefully they tell all sorts of different takes/tales and stories both tonally/divesity wise etc etc. Then I'm pretty chill and willing to give it a chance.

Edit: Ergo, I guess I see the Empire as essentially a empty canvass to express the various types of evil in the real world or whatever allegory of power and abuse of power the author intends to tell.

Also to add to the whole "Stories" idea, even within the universe I sorta like the idea that Dark Empire is just a dramatization of the Sequel Trilogy told by people. So even in the Universe there should be weird stories to tell the weird stories we are getting

 

Only after Palpatine died for the second time in Dark Empire.

It slowly but surely moves in the direction of "not enslaving or oppressing alien worlds" - but nobody portrays the Empire under Palpatine as anything but oppressive.

Actually he could be more of a Ciena-type like in Lost Stars - not pure evil- but insisting on staying with the Empire anyway. Ciena's Alderaanian Imperial buddy is more fanatical than her - but still not as evil as the Moff of Kashyyyk, who knows Wookiees are sapient and still hunts them like a big game hunter, for sport.

 

In Palpatine's day it really mattered where you were. If you were on the edge of wildspace you were unlikely to see much imperial presence, on Coruscant and the core more generally it wasn't oppressive but it was restrictive, in what I imagine more of an east germany or "papers please" sort of police state archetype. So long as you kept your head down and presented your ID, you likely got treated okay. The Mid Rim, and other places where imperial exploitation was at the worst is where you'd see imperial tyranny, slavery, and extermination.

One point Thrawn makes is that most citizens will go their lives and never see a stormtrooper, and only vaguely hear about their sector's moff.

Remember its a galaxy and thus the empire can't be oppressing people everywhere for simple logistical and manpower reasons.

 

And Thrawn was audacious enough to tell this to a pair of Alderaan's survivors.

 

People talk about Destiny's Way showcasing the Imperial Remnant as "not as close to morally good as people like Zahn or Stackpole make it seem" - but it must be said that this is the same book that shows the New Republic part of the GA as having a leader who is willing to commit genocide with a bioweapon.

A leader that the protagonists helped put in power in the first place - with a certain amount of skullduggery to do so.

So, it might have momentarily arrested the "movement toward seeing the Remnant as good" - but it's also a huge contributor to "seeing the GA as nongood".

 

Hand of Thrawn really does feel like a tipping point to me. For two important reasons, the first of which is obviously Thrawn.

Thrawn may have been a new and cool bad guy in Zahn's earlier trilogy, but he was still decidedly a bad guy, and he got his just deserts in the end from Rukh. Fans loved him, sure, but not because of any virtue, heroism, or do-goodery on his part --- they loved him for a lot of the same reasons well-written villains have always been loved. For the same reasons kids went as Darth Vader for Halloween even before his redemption in 1983.

In Hand of Thrawn, though, we learn that Thrawn had noble intentions. He was trying to unite the galaxy against the Unknown Regions threats. He and his mission aren't instantly transformed into saints in Vision of the Future --- Fel and Parck are still presented as villains whom Mara and Luke have to stop, after all --- but this could be seen as where the rehabilitation of the post-Palpatine Empire began. Then you get Survivor's Quest, that ends with Mara and Luke literally shivering and wishing Thrawn were there to protect them from whatever the future has in store. And Outbound Flight, which retcons the Hand of Thrawn from being Thrawn trying to protect the galaxy from the Unknown Regions threats to... Palpatine trying to protect the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong... which is something I don't even want to touch.

The other primary reason I see Hand of Thrawn as the tipping point is Pellaeon. He wasn't anything special in Zahn's earlier trilogy, really --- the necessary Watson to Thrawn's Holmes, but actually pretty unremarkable despite being the Empire's POV character throughout the entire three book cycle. An argument could be made that Darksaber began his, and by extension the post-ROTJ Empire's, rehabilitation, as to a degree it presents he and Daala as sane and rational alternatives to the squabbling Imperial Warlords, but the attack on Luke's Jedi Academy is still very much an act of evil.

When we get to Specter of the Past, though, Pellaeon is pretty much the protagonist of the book, and he even goes on a twisted kind of hero's journey as he travels throughout the Remnant trying to convince everyone of the soundness of his peace plan, facing opposition from Team Disra along the way. Zahn doesn't write him heroically --- he's unapologetic about what the Empire has done, and he still believes in an Imperial system of rule --- but Zahn does plant the seeds, intentionally or not, for Pellaeon's later transformation into a hero.

I wrote a lot about this in a thread here three years ago, and I just found it via the search function. So instead of rehashing everything here, I'll provide some links if anyone's interested in looking at a deep-dive into Pellaeon's NJO journey where I try to determine just how he transitioned from the bad side to the good. A quick summary: Stackpole picked up on the foundation that Zahn laid in Hand of Thrawn and used Pellaeon's military stalwartness to contrast with the indecisive and ineffective New Republic government. Walter Jon then portrayed Pellaeon as very totalitarian as a contrast to the hopeful new take on democracy that was Destiny's Way, but Williams & Dix followed it up by taking everything that made Pellaeon dictatorial in Destiny's Way (shunning due process and the system of checks and balances) and treating it as a necessary and progressive viewpoint.

It's... a bit more complicated than that, and I know that nobody likes clicking on shamelessly self-promoting links, but come on, I'm not going to go hunting through all those books again to do the exact same thing. If I were, though, I'm sure I'd be a lot less sympathetic to Pellaeon overall, as the years have only made the EU's love of the Empire look worse and worse. But anyway, here's what I came up with back in 2017:

- A look at Pelly's role in Hand of Thrawn

- How Stackpole portrayed him in Dark Tide

- Walter Jon's take in Destiny's Way

- Williams and Dix turn him into an uber-cool badass (and part 2)

- a quick note from Vthuil

- the rest of the NJO

Take a look and lemme know what you think.

 

@Jeff_Ferguson

Interesting so what I guess reading this and some of your other post (Haven't gotten to them all) is that it seems a lot of the writers took what the Hand of Thrown duopoly might have been trying to do and completely gotten in the wrong direction or just misinterpreted it greatly.

Am i reading you right?

 

IMO the "Pellaeon growing into a hero" bit, is the direction Zahn was pointing - I would suspect that Dark Tide Pellaeon is exactly the sort of thing Zahn liked.

While WJW pushed back a bit - that can be justified as "In-universe, Han and Leia are seeing Pellaeon with their own biases" - and by The Unifying Force, they've come to see that they judged him too harshly, hence their more friendly demeanour.

IMO, for Pellaeon, Dark Tide is a logical extrapolation from HoT, Force Heretic a logical extrapolation from Dark Tide, The Unifying Force a logical extrapolation from Force Heretic, Dark Nest a logical extrapolation from The Unifying Force, and Legacy of the Force a logical extrapolation from Dark Nest.

Only Destiny's Way is the odd one out.

 

@Jeff_Ferguson why do I get the sense you've made that argument before?

For real though yeah I agree. It is interesting seeing how much back and forth there was, but that because of that very fact you did get some really really interesting uses out of the Empire and Pelly. The conservative and homogenized nature of canon can be great, but it also loses things like that

 

I think Iron Lord's right about a heroic Pellaeon being the direction toward which Zahn was pointing. If Zahn had been a part of the NJO, of course Pellaeon would have played a huge rule in his book(s) (and Karrde, and Shada, and the Chiss, and Baron Fel, and snap-hisses, and flickers of pseudomotion), and of course he would have been on the front lines against the Vong redeeming himself in combat. Stackpole didn't misinterpret the Pellaeon from Hand of Thrawn --- hell, he may have even used Zahn to bounce ideas off of while writing Dark Tide --- he took where Zahn was going and rolled with it a little bit further.

Was it the right way to take Pellaeon and the Remnant? I mean... I don't know if the sum total of the unfortunate implications of a rehabilitated Empire can be pinned on any one author, but every step in the process definitely added up --- especially when Ostrander once stated that the Empire as presented in Legacy was based on his and Duursema's reading of the EU up to Dark Nest. An Empire that "changed, it evolved, and is perceived differently by the galaxy at large."

Say what you will about Episode VII, but I really do think that its presentation of Nazis as evil was a very, very good thing.

 

Callous and chutzpah filled as it was, he wasn’t wrong, what happened to Alderaan was a statistical rarity, in terms of the galactic population.

 

One of many reasons I prefer this era of Star Wars storytelling the most...But that's a personal preference thing at the end of the day

I got that and my Dark Empire movie best of both world for me

But in all seriousness it is interesting how it all sorta snowballed from Hand of Thrawn to the end though one might argue the first flake was the original Thrawn Trilogy itself back in the 90's

 

Do we really know that? Death Star destructions being rare is only because it was destroyed. I find it hard to believe Palpatine and the Empire would spend billions of credits and twenty years on a space station they were only going to use once. We also know from Rogue One they can be used to destroy cities without destroying an entire planet.

ROS further compounds that Palpatine has no qualms blowing up a planet that itself as a whole has done nothing to him. Kijimi was destroyed because a rogue group of criminal smugglers helped Poe translate a dagger. Something that most on the planet had nothing to do with.

 

Exactly the idea - a galactic superlaser enforced regime.