The music of The Clone Wars - weekly scores by Kevin Kiner

As the only other TCW music thread on this board is listed in the index as being related to the movie only, I thought it was time for a new, up-to-date thread regarding Kiner's music in the animated TV series. To start off, I wish to point out my most recent revelation: that Kiner is in fact ripping off music from other works. Blatantly ripping off. Just check out the two following videos (the trailer for The Mummy Returns and the first part of Downfall of a Droid) at 0:18 in the first and 2:30 in the second. This is sadly a direct lift; both share the exact same notes, rhythms, key, etc. What a shame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mrQOB9t7lA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFtvHJFfbeQ

 

I really love Kiners work for the movie and I really hope that some day we will get the whole movie soundtrack (some pieces were missing from the CD) and of course at least some bits from the series.

Every composer rips something of. Takes Zimmermanns Gladiator Soundtrack. He used old pieces from an unknown work of an unknown artist. I do not recall the exact name of composer and work.

A friend of mine, who works in the movie business once told me, that nearly every really famous movie soundtrack composer (and I think that would include John Williams etc.) has some poor guys inventing new music for them and they are whether credited nor payed quite well for that work, but who knows...it´s business.

 

First off, even though that music was used in the Mummy trailer, know where it comes from. That is the soundtrack to Bram Stoker's Dracula, directed by Francis Ford Copolla and scored by Wojciech Kilar. So we're not talking about some unknown piece of tune by some unknown composer that nobody really ever heard. We are talking about the score of a major motion picture. One I have on CD and have listened to endlessly. Not that ripping off a famous score is a greater offense than ripping off an unknown, it's just that it's much more noticeable and ridiculous. The first time I watched Downfall of a Droid and that music started playing, I immediately shut myself off from what was happening onscreen and just kept asking myself "Why the heck is the Dracula soundtrack playing?" It made a great disservice to the episode and lowered my regard for Kevin Kiner considerably. I would have had no problem if Kevin had created a tune in the same vein of the Dracula score, using a similar thumping rythm and tonal atmosphere. It wouldn't be terribly original, but if it works, it works. The problem is that he simply replicated the exact same musical sentence. Same rythm, same tone intervals, it was a rip off, and I've seen plagiarism cases be won with less than this.

Anyway, apart from this little musical crime and some bad techno in the same episode, I'm very happy with Kiner's score everywhere else and would certainly buy a series soudtrack cd.

 

That Mummy/CW comparison is pretty interesting. I remember hearing that John Williams ripped off the Star Wars theme music from Planets and that a lot of other themes are ripped from other classical pieces as well. But I'm not cultured enough to know exactlhy which pieces they are talking about, and nobody has ever bothered to post comparison video/sound files for me to hear for myself. Oh well.

The Mummy/CW clips are pretty incriminating. Definitely sounds like a ripoff to me. If Kiner is not going to write original music, he should at least steal from the right source--John Williams. The show needs to use themes from the films much more often. The moment where Yoda's theme is played while he talks to the clones in Ambush was great. Really made it feel like Star Wars. I'd like to see some more of that.

 

That's quite a different thing. You could say that John Williams drew inspiration from Holst's Planets, and find some similarities here and there. But I know both sources quite well and I can't think of a single repeated musical phrase. That is the crime that I feel Kiner commited with the Dracula piece, he simply cut and pasted the main phrase into his score. When I first heard it I didn't even think it had been re-recorder, I thought they had simply used a track from the Dracula soundtrack, like you will often see in trailers such as this Mummy one.

 

I doubt anyone but the most insane fanatics noticed this.

Anyway, perhaps it was done with the consent of Dracula's filmmaker, an unknown guy, completely unrelated to Lucas productions, FRANCIS FORD COPPOLA.

The composer of the Young Indiana Jones series did the same thing when he basically repurposed, with few major changes, the soundtrack from Spielberg's Hook for the phantom train episode.

 

I like the scores, they're nothing outstanding, but there are some good parts. I'm listening to the Force Unleashed soundtrack right now, and I can't help but think that it was a huge missed opportunity. Star Wars is known for the iconic music, and there's just too little of it in the Clone Wars. Mark Griskey has really done a good job of being a John Williams impersonator with TFU- which is exactly what I want and it's the highest compliment I can give to a composer doing Star Wars.

 

Gry, this is Glymphid_Warlord, posting with a sock. I actually am aware of where the music is from; I found out shortly after I started this thread.

Agreed. Although unfortunately Kiner has made it quite clear in audio interview(s) that he is more interested in creating his own new themes than in reusing Williams' classic ones.

 

While John Williams music is overall more inspiring, more iconic, and simply better than Kevin Kiner's, I'd have to say that Kevin's modern takes more often than not produce satisfactory results that serve their purposes and update some sounds (even if they don't need updating).

Personally, I liked the use of the Yoda theme in Ambush, and his use of music in most battle scenes (barring that dip into techno) is short yet stirring, sort of like the duels between Anakin and Dooku in the movie or between Ahsoka and Ventress.

I'm looking forward to more dueling music!

 

I might take offense at that but... well, you're probably right.

About me being insane, that is. But I still think that bit of song stealing was quite noticeable, I've talked to several other people much less insane than me who noticed it.

 

That "unknown work" would be Mars, the Bringer of War from Gustav Holst's "The Planets". Zimmer's "The Battle" is effectively one complete rip-off. But it still works.

As for John Williams, see if you can find the opening theme for "King's Row". You'll hear exactly where he got his inspiration for his most famous Main Theme.

Kliner's stuff can be generic, and sometimes not "Star Wars-y" at all. But there's also some great pieces in there: Yoda's Theme versions from "Ambush", Jar Jar's bagpipe theme from "Bombad Jedi", and I recall particularly liking the battle music from the opening battle of "Downfall of a Droid". I just wish he'd use more classic themes. And that doesn't mean he can carry on inserting The Force Theme into the final shot of random episodes, even when it doesn't fit at all.

 

More proof that (at least a portion of) Kiner's repertoire of music for The Clone Wars is that of other composers, from the Dooku Captured discussion thread:

This sickens me. Especially the fact that the above-mentioned music is passed off in the documentary 'A New Score - Scoring Star Wars: The Clone Wars' (found on the TCW movie's bonus features) as being that of Kiner, played along with other snippets of Kiner's material as if it were his. I'm seriously losing all respect for the guy. I wonder if there's any way I could contact Lucasfilm or whoever is in charge of him... Someone should spill the beans, 'cause I honestly doubt Dave and co. know what's going on with the music. Anyone who's not a film music aficiando will likely let it all slip by without realizing, and Kiner doesn't deserve to be payed for stealing others' work.

 

That is definitely concerning, if true.

Kiner does a lot of work for other TV shows. Has he really gotten this far in his career if he steals music from other sources? You'd think somebody would have figured it out by now. Or are we SW fans just too obsessive?

Gry, just take "insane fanatic" as the compliment it is.

 

I don't think we're too obsessive, and I do think this is cause for concern, seeing as within the past two days I have found no less than two examples of Kiner ripping off someone else's music for The Clone Wars. LOL I can see it now: Someone from Sony Classical is speaking to Kiner about what music will end up on the TV soundtrack, and Kiner bursts out, 'No, not that cue (fearing that the thousands of film music fans around the world will instantly recognize it to be the work of another)! I just think this one here (points to another section of music) is more important musically.' And then we get a soundtrack with like five minutes of music, 'cause that's all the original music he's written for the series!

 

Okay, I just played around with some industry standard applications (Soundtrack Pro), and guess what I found? Mummy's and Kevin's are slightly different. Take it for what you will, could be my bad, sloppy checking - but Kevin's version is slightly off beat at 2 different points, and did the same effect with a different approach...

Sounds the same until you "magnify" the music, and starts looking at it in Waveform, Spectrum and Pitch.
Kevin's mix of Instruments and Digitizing it gave a very similar, but slightly different sound. Though listening to it initially feels the same, if you slow it down 2.5x, and listen to it carefully, you'll start hearing differences. Weird thing... But you do have to realise that the Music, Film, entertainment industry take things from each other!

 

That's great, but we're in no way insinuating that Kiner just stuck the original recording to The Clone Wars. It's actually pretty likely he got it rerecorded with a live orchestra, as he has (supposedly) been doing with every other music cue in the series.

 

Since Kiner is getting a lot of criticism lately, I feel like I should give him props for the music played during the Coruscant scene in Dooku Captured. It had a good sound, and added some drama and tension to the scene.

 

Yes thanks, I wanted to post this right now...and sorry that I called Hans Zimmerman instead of Zimmer...don´t know why?

 

Ok true! But here are some Kiner pieces I´m really fond of and some of his CW work is better some weak PT music.

 

At this point, how can we even be sure of what is actually by Kiner and what's not?

EDIT- Let's not make harsh accusations like that, please.

 

Right...I didn´t knew Kiner before TCW, I don´t watch CSI so his name would somehow come to my notice.
The best things in the CW soundtrack are varations from Williams Work...

 

Speaking of which, did anyone else think the music played during Anakin and Obi-Wan's interrogation of Dooku sounded very similar to the Death Star cues from A New Hope?

 

Regarding the whole possibly lifting music from Dracula thing...

Maybe I'm too likely to give people the benefit of the doubt, but given what little info we have it seems best to reserve judgment.


Beyond that, him stealing music just doesn't make sense. It's like, here's Kiner composing. He says to himself, "hmm. I need about 5-10 seconds of music to go right here. I could whip up something. Or, I could go through my CD collection and find a good 5-10 second snippet that'll work. Yeah, that's what I'll do. Take some time to find something already written that works. Once I find the appropriate cue, I'll then either transcribe the bit myself, or get the sheet music for that section. I'll then of course have to re-orchestrate it, given that I'm working with a much smaller group of musicians."

Just seems like it'd be easier to write something yourself rather than to go through the effort of stealing such a small segment of music.

As for the bit in this episode that sounds like music from the Death Star in Ep 4, I noticed it too, and figure it's a purposeful allusion.

 

Good point, though from what I've heard it doesn't even really sound like he re-orchestrated it at all...