PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Yes, I understand that! They don't know it's dooku they only know it's Tyranus because this is all they see of the man they know to be Tyranus.

To the cloners this is Tyranus:




To the cloners this is Sifo-Dyas:




To the cloners they are two separate people.

 

Could be but they finished writing TCW scripts through until the end several years ago. MH did the vocals for Bane in 10 or 11. So it was all done by the time he left 2 years ago.

As I said maybe they are doing something that GL already had going on for some reason that is important they need to finesse it for future stories when they get back to the PT era again one day.

I still think that it's possible that one day when the technology makes it financially viable that TCW run will finish in some form. Not all 50 or so episodes but core select stories.

 

Like I said, the season 6 stories were written in 2011, Lucas announced he was leaving in 2012:

"I've written, like, twelve, sixteen [episodes] now? Because we're three years ahead of you guys. We've already written Season Six."
―Christian Taylor, in September 2011

In the Q&A video from Filoni, he says that:

"I think it was something he wanted to lock down before he left"

He says this as an answer to someone asking him if George knew who Sifo-Dyas when he did AOTC. Filoni gives a pretty evasive answer about it. Again it sounds like Lucas told them to "lock it down" but left them to the details:




So yes there are more stories out there, if anything that Lucas wanted "Locked Down" was because of something else he was doing down the road, well who knows...

 

The rest were finished before he left:

http://makingstarwars.net/2014/05/brent-friedman-writer-clone-wars-talks-season-7-8/


Q:I know you can't say what was written but can you at least say how much of Season 7 of Clone Wars was fully written?

BF: All of it. And all of Season 8.

 

I don't know if Dooku (as a potential public figure back then) would show is face to play someone else. Not that the Kaminoans would care as long as the money kept coming, but it would make the alias useless...

He came up with the stories and supervised the whole thing. They were evasive to the question if this was how George had envisioned it since AotC, which probably wasn't exactly as is.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't prove anything as far as Lucas wanting to lock down Sifo-Dyas's story for future storylines. Doesn't disprove it either.

I hear ya on that point, and it might be a plot hole in the story. However, I will say this, the way it sounds in AOTC, the cloners are cutoff from the rest of the galaxies comings and goings, so they may never get the Republic Times on their doorstep with pictures of Dooku on the front page.

However, it still doesn't change the fact that now we have both the movie and TCW (both canon) implying heavily that it was Dooku posing as Sifo-Dyas. I just can't see Sidious doing that deed himself.

From what I have understood, there were certain things Lucas wanted done in certain episodes and he steered the show, however, the episodes were not written by him (well some may have, i can't pretend to know the writer of every episode), they were written by others, many many others, even his daughter. So while Lucas was invovled in the show, there is no way of knowing which details are his or not. The writers were given a lot of leeway.

So when you take that whole Q&A video into context, and we hear that Filoni can only give an opinion because he says he doesn't know if George knew the Sifo-Dyas plot from the early stages of AOTC and that Filoni had to get other people involved in the white board sessions to outline the timeline, this tells me Lucas was hands off, at least for this part.

 

I know, but when it was time for a galactic war, they would know.

It could still be Dooku in disguise.

The story came from him, the script didn't (hence the need for writers and why he was there with them to explain the details). Yet he supervised and gave his approval over every step. Same thing with the live-action series, although that never moved out of the scripting stage.

It was more like: This happened this way and this is what the episode is about. Filoni and his team then had to take care of how everything fit in the timeline (not just for the episode, but to get a better prespective on the whole thing. If something was contradicting, they'd get George to clarify.

 

Unlikely, if Dooku is the public face of the Confederacy.

 

I already addressed it as a possible plot hole, or possibly the Kaminoians (spelling?) just don't care enough to watch the GFFA's version of CNN...

However, everything in the movie and TCW points to Dooku doing the deed of pretending to be Sifo Dyas.

If you have other thoughts on why you don't think it's Dooku, other than the 1 point you already made, than I am all ears.

Right, it was left up to Filoni and crew to figure out the time line because Lucas wasn't there for every meeting and every step of the process.The fact that they had to call others, before just going to Lucas shows that Lucas isn't involved in the series as closely as some want to think he is, yet he is invovled. At some point they would have to go to Lucas for approval on some things. However, even if Lucas allowed the new storyline for Sifo Dyas in TCW, it still doesn't change that it seems he had a differing view of those events when he wrote AOTC. Just like I said earlier, even Filoni hints that he thought the events with Sifo Dyas and the clones happened after TPM, because he says he had to go back and rethink everything.

I think Filoni, when asked if Lucas always had it figured out this way, knows Lucas didn't have it figured out the way it goes down in TCW, but Filoni knows Star Wars fans. He knows that if he says what happens in TCW is not what Lucas originally intended, well than he will split the fans because there will be the segment that will scream TCW is garbage because it's not what Lucas intended.

Filoni, I think, is also trying to protect Lucas to some degree as well. That's why Filoni says that the writing process is fluid, or changes, (i dont have the exact quote). Again, he is saying that just because something is thought of one way "x" years ago, things change in the writing/creative process. He says it "evolves". Filoni doesn't want to paint Lucas into a corner by coming out and saying, no Lucas thought of it this way, but then changed his mind and allowed this way. Once again the fans would be all over Lucas for yet again changing his mind on a story.

So, I have to stick by my original thoughts, that the movies suggest the events of Sifo Dyas happened after TPM, but, something happened that Filoni and crew saw that they thought messed with the timeline, so they changed those events to happen before TPM. Lucas approved it because, as long as it worked, I don't think he really cared if it fit with his original intentions, he has shown he is willing to change things from what he originally intended, something a lot of fans grill him over.

 

I agree, that's what Filoni implies.

Yes, and that would be the connection to Valorum. If Sifo-Dyas' secret mission and assassination wasn't tied to Valorum's administration, then one could safely assume that everything happened right after TPM (which was probably how Lucas envisioned it originally back in 2002).

No, the events as described by Lucas were what we see in the episode. Filoni had to look up if there were no contradictions and everything made sense by making a timeline of events (on which he discovered, like you, that Tyranus and Maul were at some point working for Sidious at the same time).

Personally, I believe Tyranus was just an alias Dooku was using and that after Maul was defeated Sidious used that as Dooku's Sith name.

 

First I agree with you on the Tyranus name. It's actually quite obvious in TCW that is what happened.

However, I am lost when it comes to this:

You agreed that Lucas originally thought when he wrote AOTC, Sifo Dyas ordered the Clone Army after the events of TPM...

Where do you get that Lucas then told them for this Episode he wanted those events to happen before TPM?

There's nothing to suggest that Lucas did this. In fact the Q&A suggests otherwise, that Filoni wasn't given any direction on when it happened, that he was only going on what he originally thought, it was only after they started to white board it that they realized that had to switch the timeline to before the TPM.

It sounded like FIloni originally started to whiteboard the timeline as the Sifo Dyas story line happening after TPM. When he realized there was a problem, they had called Hidalgo and they had to rethink the situation to where Tyranus and Maul existed at the same time, which would put the timeline before TPM. If Lucas had told them right off the bat that he changed his mind and wants the Sifo Dyas story before the events of TPM, then there wouldn't be that timeline problem and no need to call Hidalgo, because he would have addressed his concerns directly with Lucas. There is no mention of Lucas's name being talked to when they have a problem with the timeline on the whiteboard.

Maybe I am wrong, and Lucas did tell them that he changed his story, however, I am not getting that vibe off the Q&A, I am getting the vibe they were told to lock it down, and when they outlined it, they saw something from the old EU continuity that they didn't think was right with the original idea that those events happened after TPM. So they called Hidalgo and then "realized" that Maul and Tyranus must have existed at the same time thus the events happened before TPM. So they created the story around this "new" narrative, rather then the original one.

Basically to me there was no reason for Lucas to change his mind and change the story of Sifo Dyas from the time he wrote AOTC to now, nothing in his mind would have changed, unless it was brought to his attention, that there was an issue with continuity.

 

When he tied those events with Valorum.

When does he suggest anything like that?

That's not what he says.

Leland: "We find out who Sifo-Dyas is. Did George know, since Episode II, what Sifo-Dyas was?"
Filoni: "I can give you my opinion, I don't know. I mean, as a storyteller myself I could tell you that you evolve the story so much as you create other parts of the story. I think it was something that he wanted to lock down more before he left, which is why we have this arc. And one interesting thing that you have to accept, which I had not really considered just watching the movies, is that Sidious has both Dooku and Maul as 'Padawan learner' term at the same time. Because Dooku, in order to put the things in motion that he does, has to be doing them around the time of The Phantom Menace. So he's operatively working somewhat knowingly for Sidious under corruption while Maul is still there."

What he says is that George wanted to lock down/establish what happened with Sifo-Dyas before he left, hence why Lucas conceived this story arc. He also says that back then (when the movies were released), he didn't know Dooku was working for Sidious before or during TPM, because it's only established in this arc that it's all connected to Valorum (who ceased to be Chancellor during the events of the movie, thus locking the timeframe for when these events took place).

 

If it was so obvious from the movie, presumably there wouldn't be a question in the first place.

 

I thought it was commonly accepted that Sifo Dyas was Sidious? (Palpatine). He had powers of the force and could have tricked the guys on Kamino into believing he was a former Jedi.

 

I never minded the official Sifo Dyas mystery and how it got resolved, but after seeing this sweet fan trailer, I can't help but wonder, why did GL decide to make up a new Jedi altogether, instead of having the Kaminoans reveal to Obi Wan that Qui-Gon Jinn had ordered the Clone Army?

There would have been plenty of reasons to go in that direction:

-It would have been a punch in Kenobi's gut to be told by Lama-Su that his own mentor put down the order. That would have given his mystery investigation a very personal note.
-The audience were already familiar with Qui-Gon and it would have puzzled them just as much as Kenobi that he'd do something as out of character as supporting a militaristic cause.
-Dooku was Qui-Gon's former teacher, so it would have made sense for him to use his deceased renegade Padawan's name for the order.

Then they could have added a shot of Dooku into TPM's funeral scene as well as let Qui-Gon's story come full circle with the deleted scene of him communicating with Yoda on Polis Massa in ROTS.

 

Probably because it wouldn't be an act he would envision Qui-Gon doing? The point of the story is to tell it as he wants, not change it or its characters and take shortcuts just to make it easier for some people to follow.

 

Interesting idea, and I guess it could have worked. Then again, creating an army of mass-produced human beings destined only for combat seems pretty out of character for Qui-Gon. Obviously in your scenario Qui-Gon didn't really do it, but it might have made the Jedi more hesitant to use the army. Especially if Dooku made the order after Qui-Gon died; after, all the Jedi know when Qui-Gon died, but they seem to be unsure about exactly when Sifo-Dyas died.

 

And yet, Commander Fives just said that Sidious plotted the entire clone army conspiracy which includes putting bio chips in every clone trooper that programs them to kill all of the Jedi. Sidious is more than capable of doing the deed himself especially when we see Lama Su giving Sidious a bio chip in the Clone Wars cartoon.

 

Qui-Gon wouldn't have ordered the army, though. That would have played out the same as it did in the film. Dooku/ Sidious placed the order under a deceased Jedi's name.
Of course GL is free to do as he wants, they are his films. However, since Qui-Gon is defined to be the initiator of causing change of galactic proportion, in TPM (Anakin's discovery) and ROTS (he's revealed to be the first to truly commune from the netherworld), why not (seemingly) use him likewise in AOTC? It would have added even more weight to Dooku's exchange with Kenobi in the prison holding cell, when he's trying to sell it to Obi that Qui-Gon would have sided with the Count's views of raising armies.

In TPM it is established that Qui-Gon is no stranger to defying the Jedi Council's decisions. He is after all in part based on GL's struggles with the outdated and strict views of the Director's Guild of America. It wouldn't make a difference which Jedi had made the order to them, since, as you said, it remains deeply troubling any Jedi would. I don't see how it is relevant whether the Jedi know when Qui-Gon died- Dooku must have placed the order roughly around the time Qui-Gon was still alive. Kenobi wasn't given anything more specific than "about ten years ago" by Lama-Su and Jango Fett. Dooku must have spent quite a lot of preparation time on this massive Clone Order, given how he had to recruit Jango, negotiate with the Kaminoans, etc. Surely that all had to be set up well in advance, when Qui-Gon was still among the living.

 

Actually, ROTS says that Qui-Gon returned from the netherworld.

 

There is nothing suggesting that it was Lucas that created that story himself. He may have allowed it, but, that doesn't mean it was what he had in mind.

When he tells us that he was drawing the timeline up on the whiteboard and ran into problems. If Lucas had given him the story directly there would have been no need to draw up a timeline to figure it out, no need to call others to help figure it out, any problems would have been hashed out between him and Lucas. I really believe that Lucas isn't as involved as you want to think he was. There is nothing in the video that suggests that Lucas had anything directly to do with the story other than he wanted to lock it down.

Again, there is nothing suggesting that Lucas conceived this story arc. I know Lucas was involved in the story, but, you are suggesting that he was involved day to day, and that is not what I have gathered from reading various interviews. While he was involved at certain steps, with writers meetings, animations meetings etc, and final approval, he wasn't writing the episodes himself. If the story worked for him, and fulfilled certain plot points that he wanted, then it was good.

You left out the second part of what Filoni said (quite conveniently I may add), where he talks of having to draw up the timeline and running into problems. It makes no sense that if Lucas had given them the timeline, that there would still be problems or those problems wouldn't have been hashed out with Lucas in the room, or they would have called Lucas (since he gave them the timeline) instead of 2 or 3 others before Lucas. It shows that Lucas wasn't involved as deeply as some want to believe. Lucas's name never comes up once when it comes to this story with the exception when Filoni says he wanted to lock it down, which is not proof that Lucas created this story line himself.

So again my belief is that when Lucas originally made AOTC, he wrote it with the idea that the story line of Sifo Dyas (the ordering of the clones etc) happens shortly after TPM. Lucas's own quote from the DVD commentary suggests it..

"After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

The commentary suggests that Dooku was turned after Maul was killed, which totally nixes them being sith padawans at the same time. I don't think Lucas ever changed his mind. I think what happens is that Lucas tells Filoni and the writers that he wants the story "locked down" and then Filoni and crew are free to come up with the story as long as it meets his approval and any plot points that Lucas wants in the story. Once Filoni and crew have a story in place they show it to Lucas who then approves it, changes it, or tells them to go back to the drawing board. Because Filoni was having such a problem with figuring out the timeline, and that he never says he and Lucas talked about it, but, rather he called 2 others (with a 3rd in the wings), tells me that it was up to Filoni to figure it out on his own.
Lucas approved it even though it may have been different then he originally intended, because it doesn't change the fundamental outline of what Lucas intended, that Dooku was behind everything. It just changes when it happened, which probably wasn't that important to Lucas, or he would have been involved in the timeline...

At this point, I will just agree to disagree. I just get the sense that Lucas wasn't as involved in the actual story as you think he was. Maybe I am wrong, maybe you're right, maybe his level of involvement is somewhere between what we both think...

If you read my actual post it says the movie and TCW. When looking at both, everything points to Dooku being the one that pretended to be Sifo Dyas... I know we haven't gotten a character coming out and saying it or Dooku's character admitting it, so I know that's what you will hang your hat on when it comes to your opinion.

All the circumstantial evidence points to Dooku, even the scene where Sidious tells Tyranus to back track and clean up his mess (from TCW).

I have to think that it's because the source of the clone army is rooted in the evil plans of Sidious. Qui Gonn was clearly a good and noble character. By mixing Qui Gonn into the Sith Plot (unnecessarily) it confuses the audience as to whether Qui Gon was good or not. Or if he was in league with the Sith...

You can see just by this thread alone that there are people that won't believe Dooku odered the Clone Army because of personal preferences to the character which leads them to believe that he wasn't capable of it, or because there isn't a scene where we are hit over the head with the revelation that he did it.

So it is my opinion that Qui Gon should have been left out of it, if not just to make sure his character stays good and noble.

Sidious does plot the entire conspiracy, but, uses others to carry it out so he can remain in the shadows and his true identity a secret.

Palpatine doesn't put himself into face to face conversations when he is in his Sidious guise and I doubt the Cloners would have taken an order for 1 million plus clones (plus weaponry) over the telephone. He uses holograms and his apprentices to do that. He isn't going to take the chance of getting caught.

Lama Su handed the chip to Palpatine...

 

Yes, there is. The stories for these episodes came from him.

It may not be what he had in mind originally when he was making the movies, but is what he wanted to be now when he was making the series.

 

If it's a scene from TCW, it's taking place long after the clone order.

Except when it doesn't. For some reason TCW does the same thing that Labyrinth of Evil and Darth Plagueis did. It preserves the ambiguity, walks right up to the line and refuses to fully commit. We are left to wonder why.

 

Because that's the fun of the mystery, to make you think rather than hit you upside the head with the obvious stick...

 

So if we're left with "mystery", that conflicts with the assertion "everything points to my desired result".