ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

At the risk of getting lost in the weeds, isn't Vader-as-Luke's-father kind of a textbook retcon? "True from a certain point of view" is simply the framing to explain a retroactive story decision. But that doesn't mean it can't make sense. Indeed, it did make sense, quite good sense, even to the point where a certain retroactive-acting is credited to Guiness when Obi-Wan explains what happened to Luke's father in ANH.

 

This is true. But the other stuff mentioned aren’t retcons like fixing Kylo’s helmet and fixing the blue lightsaber.

 

We should stop viewing the word "retcon" with such a negative connotation. Retcons, like most story elements, can be done well and poorly. They can be done with good intent or bad intent. Every retcon should be judged on its own merits.

 

It is, and arguably Leia being Luke's sister could be considered a retcon as well. Even Palpatine being force sensitive and an actual threat, not to mention the big bad, could be considered one since the ANH novelization made it very clear that the Emperor was just in a long line of puppet Emperors controlled by the bureaucrats.

 

Even having Palpatine return is a HUGE retcon! We all saw him tossed into the reactor and saw the explosion in RotJ. Now Anakin/ Vader is no longer the chosen one who brought balance to the force by getting rid of the Sith, because Palpatine never died and was constantly plotting and planning for his return according to RoS.

Definitely a major retcon.

Whoops! I see that @DarthPhilosopher and then others,already covered this.

 

Funny you should mention that because Anakin being the Chosen One and the entire prophecy was a blatant retcon itself. And a Palpatine who was plotting even from beyond the death dates as far back as Dark Empire and people have speculated that many of the revelations in ROTS may have been inspired from that.

 

Dark empire isn’t canon anymore.

 

Is Vader being the chosen one who brought balance to the Force a retcon?

Much as I dislike the concept, I'd say no.

I think for a retcon to happen, you probably need an affirmative statement or image that you then contradict. It's the Scottish concept of "approbate/reprobate." The retcon is the explanation for the contradiction. The OT may be more focused on Luke, but the significance of Anakin Skywalker is a theme. The PT adds context to his significance. So the PT essentially reframes the central character from Luke to Anakin but doesn't alter much of Anakin that wasn't already altered in the OT.

ETA: Beaten to the punch by @jeangreyforever! Here I thought I was responding to a question no one was asking.

 

I never said it was canon. I said people speculated that Lucas got a lot of ideas for Palpatine extending his presence beyond life from that since he was reportedly a fan and claimed that out of all the EU, Dark Empire most closely resembled his ST.

 

The ST isn't written by the same person as either of the other two Trilogies and GL said the movies were done after ROTS even if the decision to bring Palpatine back came from him it would be a retcon. Just like he turned Vader in to Luke's father.

The Star Wars comic reference was to show how the development process changed and also provide an example as to how Vader was not Luke's father in ANH that was changed for ESB as there is nothing in ANH that contradicts the idea and it worked amazingly well it's the perfect example of a fantastic retcon.

 

You don't know that.

Let's take your tone here: substantiate it. Prove Palpatine was intended to die in the reactor. Substantiate he couldn't possibly have some cosmic out, given all the Clone Wars/Rebels stuff George signed off on personally as legit conceptually

Things suddenly get tricky, eh? Argumentative inconvenience isn't necessarily illegitimate, when backed by demonstrable facts. Was Palpatine intended to die in 1983 upon making RotJ? Likely, given at the time George intended to end things with VI rather than his initially-planned IX. Could that intention have shifted post-1983, after George decided to do the prequels, and more pertinently once he'd decided to move forward with a sequel trilogy? You bet your ass it could have.

If you're going to claim it as a definitive, onus is on you to prove so, right? For all any of us know George intended Palpatine back for the sequels, unless you have concrete evidence pointing otherwise it's no retcon.

 

I don't think a retcon requires a contradiction. Or maybe it's the difference between a soft retcon and a hard retcon. A soft retcon being one in which you just retroactive add something to continuity that wasn't initially there at all and a hard retcon being one in which you change the continuity that was already established. So, something like Vader being the chosen one is a soft retcon while Vader being Luke's father is a hard retcon.

 

So? Plenty of franchises and series continue even after the creator is no longer involved. Do you think that when GL died, Star Wars would be over? He may not be dead, but he sold the franchise of his own volition and opted out of continuing to work on it. If he really wanted his ST to exist, he ought to have made them himself or made an ironclad agreement with Disney that those treatments and only those would be used before selling. GL says a lot of things about the movies. At one point there were 9 films. Then there were 12. Then there were just 3, then 6, then 9 again. Lucas himself planned a Sequel Trilogy so that itself could be considered a retcon after he claimed for so many years that the saga was over at 6 films. And bringing back a dead character isn't a retcon, but claiming said character was never dead all along is.

Ben telling Luke that Vader killed his father is a pretty solid piece of evidence that just works because of "a certain point of view." If that doesn't gel with you, Leia being Luke's sister in ROTJ after she plants a big one on him in TESB is pretty contradictory and anything but a fantastic retcon, which is also probably why it received hefty amounts of criticism even back then.

That's pretty much proven. When Lucas had his treatments ready, the first three people he spoke to about them were Mark, Carrie, and Ian. That information has been out since 2015 if not even earlier. A few days back, somebody even posted a link as proof of that since there were so many naysayers and doubters.

 

You bring up the Jon Snow comparison a lot and I have said and will continue to say it's not remotely the same. There were clues about Jon Snow's real parentage in EPSIODE 1, SEASON 1. I don't even read the books and was able to figure it out in a relatively short amount of time. But, as I said, after the first episode I knew that Ned was not his real father. The anvils were all over the place. The sister being kidnapped and raped by the targaryen heir was hinted at not being the whole story, Ned finding his sister dying and she says "promise me," then Ned shows up with a baby. I mean, COME ON. And this was extrapolated all early in the show. Not dropped in the last seasons. The clues were there and obvious. You knew where they were going.

Compare and contrast with the relative Rey is supposedly related to - THE BIG REVEAL - has barely been mentioned up to this point.

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I think I am going mad reading all of the mental gymnastics that are being done to defend the ST, Palpatine was 100% dead before TROS there are countless interviews stating this, it's crystal clear in the movies that he is dead. TCW and Rebels makes this clear that the events of ROTJ brought the destruction of the Sith, so many things stated that Palpatine was dead and his death/the destruction of the Sith would bring balance to the Force. If you have missed this you have either not watched any Star Wars movies and shows or compeltely missed the point.

 

That’s your impression. I have mine. He was fighting. The glimpse of the dark side and the look down to the glove wake him up to where this can lead. He tosses aside his weapon entirely and refuses to attack any more at all. A non-violent protest against what both his Jedi masters and Darth Sidious wanted. He epitomizes what he feels is the true Jedi way. He is what he grows beyond. And he attempts to be the same again in VIII but it doesn’t work. Just as his ability to pull himself back from the dark side didn’t lead to a warm moment with family as it had prior.

 

And this highlights why the Vader retcon works so well. Regardless of it being unintentional, Vader as dad all along fits with ANH so well. Everything from Ben hesitating when he talks about Luke’s dad to the weird glances between Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru and Ben mentioning that he was a great pilot and Vader hops in a TIE and takes on Luke. It’s not even set up that Vader is a pilot before that. There is an air of mystery around Luke’s father in the movie that allows for a surprise. I was too young but I think I’ve heard that there was speculation at the time that Obi was Luke’s dad.

Stories just shouldn’t feel so random, like shocking plot points are being thrown at the wall to see what sticks. What makes them shocking? Oh they make zero sense. Plot points that make no sense will always be shocking, but not in a good way.

It’s also in the canon TFA visual guide. He was dead when they started the ST. This is a retcon.

 

https://www.ibtimes.com/star-wars-e...n-boyega-continue-reshoots-california-2838878

The two main cast members who are filming at the moment are Ridley and Boyega. Ridley’s makeup artist has been there in California for the past few days and Boyega too teased on Instagram that he was “getting ready” for something a few days ago.

Since Both Boyega and Ridley are filming together in California, it is being suggested that the two of them will share the screen in what is being filmed. The trailers of the film have also confirmed that the two characters will be spending a lot of time together as they embark on a new journey.

I'm pretty sure this has been posted before but there hasn't been much discussion about it in the actual leaks thread (unlike a myriad of completely unrelated topics). We've heard so many leaks that Lando knows something about Rey's heritage and tells Finn this. And we've heard that Finn keeps trying to tell Rey something but it's never the right time. Could these reshoots feature the scene when Finn finally tells Rey about her true parents? Maybe Rey Palpatine is indeed a fakeout in the script and the true answer is just being shot right now.

I always figured this was obvious from the film alone. I didn't realize people are contested even over this moment. Typical.

 

Is there anything saying daniels, Issac or the actor playing chewy isn't also there? just because Boyega and Ridley are the only ones mentioned? i imagine that doesn't mean much tbh.

 

Oh come on. Palpatine dies a classic villain wizard death by falling down a reactor/pit/hole. It's seemingly vague on purpose. All we see are some mysterious lights/fx accompanied whooshing sound.

George Lucas patterned Star Wars after serials, in which, villains frequently "died" by falling off a cliff, down a pit, and then they came back a few episodes later. The Emperor's death was not specific. Did he blow up? Fall into something? Fall out of something? We didn't see his body at all. It wasn't like the melting Nazis at the of Raiders.

Retcon, or not, Palpatine's death was vague. Much more vague than Darth Maul's. Maybe even more vague than Boba Fett's death. As was pointed out, George Lucas allowed Palpatine to return in Dark Empire. It was canon for a long time. This leads one to believe that The Emperor's demise was allowed wiggle room on purpose....if you notices, this happens with a lot of great villains in this genre. Most of the great villains return. Welcome to Episode 9!

 

You're right, there isn't any information to discount the fact that there might be other actors shooting there as well. However, the fans tend to be pretty adept at tracking these guys down.

 

We all know George was inspired by old serials like Flash Gordon. However, what he did not do, which is what that Flash Gordon movie from the 80s did, was to have that "the end?" scene where, I think, you see supposed dead Emperor Ming`s hand reach out. ROTJ was clearly supposed to be a definitive end, not an "the end?" tease with Palpatine.

Would he have brought Palpatine back for realsies in a "never died, haha" way? Doubtful. If he wanted to go micro-cosm and whills and stuff, there are numerous ways to bring Palpatine back - from the dead. Meaning he actually died in ROTJ but is brought back now.

Whereas TROS seems to say he was tossed down a reactor shaft of an exploding Death Star but somehow made it out of there perfectly alive yet for some reason went to the Unknown Regions to amass a super-Star-Destroyer army and still make everything bad happen- just from his sick/death bed. I mean, it`s not like he could have sucked the force out of twinsies Luke and Leia at their prime after ROTJ if he needed a double meal combo from the force. Nope, lets wait it out for decades.

Now he is 100+ and old an frail but after one super-smoothie, he shoots lightning into an overhead fleet and destroys several ships. Somehow one or two lightsabers keep that same lightning at bay. Before Rey super-smoothies herself and goes all Thor on him. Only this time, Palpatine is really, really supposed to die.

 

If Luke had suddenly become a total pacifist, it would be weird for him to celebrate the death of the Empire and the Rebel victory in the war. It would also be hypocritical to not condemn his murderous father for throwing Sheev into a shaft.

Jedi are warrior monks. The idea that the true light side enlightenment is pacifism when there are dark siders like Snoke and Kylo running around is either irrational absurdity or just plain old pro-fascism. I don’t know what else to make of an anti-canon interpretation of Luke in RotJ that he rejected all fighting as a means of defeating evil.

 

But why deliberately go against what is already established... The Chosen One prophecy doesn't undermine anything in the OT, it's harmless to the story told in those movies. Anakin had a arc, he saved his son yes but he defeated the Sith. Bringing back the Emperor needlessly touches upon this. Rey already has the burden of all the things Luke was supposed to do, and now she's probably going to take Anakins achievment as well. It'd be better for Rey to do something new and awesome that defines her character's story.