ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

I think we’re in for a real treat in that regard. The idea of improving on the ending of ROTJ seemed blasphemous previously but to throw in one of the the greatest twists since the Vader reveal and better positioning some of Rey’s more questionable choices in the saga more around her own issues with the Dark side...


Beyond that, implying that the tales of the past were so powerful and the Skywalkers so beloved that they helped steer someone who could have become Palpatine’s heir of darkness instead toward the Light is awesome!

Doing all that while exploring the complexity of family and reminding us not to judge someone by their bloodline, while showcasing a longer redemptive arc built around the development of a romantic love of a formally evil man that’s so powerful he throws aside his entire kingdom and fights off the knights he once lead to save a woman he cares for from the life he once wanted for her...


While honoring Leia’s training and this moment...


And giving us updated action upgrades over Endor... and showing us the Skywalkers will live on forever both in the other realm but also in the mortal one because of what they mean to people...

 

The execution may be far better than how people are perceiving the written leaks.

I have kinda accepted the idea that if alot of this stuff is true. its not gonna go down hugely well in fan circles. but if this is all true then what can ya do.

 

I don’t know if this has already been discussed but is it possible that Kylo actually didn’t wipe out Luke’s academy? I know Luke says Kylo did it but he was knocked out under rubble and did not a actually see him do it. TLJ shows that Luke and Kylo both made assumptions about each other or told their stories from a certain point of view like Obi Wan. In this video Hello Greedo revealed some stuff I had no idea about.

 

TLJ didn't show Ben kill Luke's students because it would be more obvious to casual movie goers that he is the equivalent of a school shooter. Johnson wanted the audience to sympathize with Kylo just like how Rey does in the film. Showing Kylo kill Luke's students and then having Rey run off to save him makes her look incredibly stupid.

 

If Luke didn't wake up to a pile of bodies, he'd have to be pretty dumb to attribute their massacre to Kylo. And if he did wake up to a pile of bodies... Yeah Kylo killed them. Way too complex to eff with the movie backstory like that in comics.

 

I could see the KoR being responsible for the massacre - sensing Luke’s incapacitation and using it as an excuse to attack the temple - and kidnapping Kylo. But that would have to be shown on screen to be effective, and we haven’t heard any news about such a scene from JP or MSW.

 

If RJ had thought of rewriting the Jedi massacre, we would have had multiple scenes of poor baby Kylo whining about being blamed for murdering his peers and Luke would have anguished in the shame of blaming him. RJ was specifically looking for Kylo apologism plot.

 

Star Wars: The Force Awakens (dialogue from subtitles): “Han Solo: [Luke] was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything.”

Star Wars: The Force Awakens (dialogue from subtitles): “Kylo Ren: Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father. So I destroyed him.”

Star Wars: The Force Awakens – The Visual Dictionary: Kylo Ren entry. “Kylo Ren betrayed the other Jedi students studying with Master Luke Skywalker, and is responsible for their destruction. He has well earned the nickname ‘Jedi Killer,’ whispered in the First Order ranks, as it was his deadly lightsaber skills that prevented the return of the Jedi Order.”

Princess Leia Royal Rebel: “Ben Solo was seduced by the dark side, and by the First Order – a military movement that opposed the New Republic and the Jedi. Leia’s son killed all the apprentices Luke had been training and left his uncle’s Jedi Temple in flames. Like his grandfather, he took a new name after turning to the dark side – Kylo Ren. Luke abandoned his quest to rebuild the Jedi Order and vanished.”

StarWars.com Databank: Kylo Ren entry. “A dark side warrior with a mysterious past, Kylo Ren was neither Jedi nor Sith, but a product of both sides’ teachings. Once an apprentice of Luke Skywalker’s, he killed his fellow students and drove Skywalker into exile, becoming a First Order warlord and servant of Supreme Leader Snoke. Kylo was determined to destroy the last remnants of the Jedi, fulfilling the legacy of Darth Vader.”

From my old timeline page. (After TLJ came out I gave up trying to keep up with it or the inconsistencies and didn't want to spend any more time/money on bothering with it.)

 

What if Kylo wasn’t kidnapped? What if the Knights killed everyone but Kylo? Maybe he was able to fight them off by himself and it was Snoke testing him? Either way we now know that not only were the KOR not Luke’s padawans but they have been around before the Jedi Massacre! That huge news to me.

 

Yeah, I get that. But JJ wrote his script after TLJ, so it could be an unplanned twist introduced by JJ to make Kylo more sympathetic in advance of his redemption. I don’t know, though. Nothing pointing to that at the moment.

 

To me it just feels like they started out with redemption in mind for him more than developing his actual fall/descent and that's why he is so underdeveloped when it comes to an actual threatening persona. Almost every bad deed is never shown on screen and the films seem to excuse him in the narrative. I just don't get the same emotional affect that the PT gave. Anakin's story was tragic and George didn't try to apologize or lay blame on anyone else for Anakin's choices.

And damn, when Anakin was p*&^$d off, he showed it. Angry Anakin was great to watch.

 

So you’re saying there’s a chance?!

But seriously, eventually LF needs to pick the story they’re telling and just tell it all the way.

 

It’s less about Kylo and more about Rey considering how someone she’s being compared to by the same master could fall to the dark side because she has such significant dark side issues buried within herself she’s seeking to repress and avoid that Kylo Ren is trying to bring out. We didn’t know why Kylo was so convinced it was possible to bring her to the dark side. Clearly he sensed what we will soon learn on screen in IX. That as big a threat as the grandson of Vader is to this galaxy the potential union of Sidious grandaughter and him both on the dark side is much larger. The biggest the galaxy has ever seen since their grandfathers.

 

Nah. Both Kylo and Anakin are whiny babies who blame their crappy choices on other people. Just as Kylo blames Luke and Han, Anakin blamed Obi-wan and the Jedi Council.

 

They've been constantly blaming other characters for Ben Solo's choices and it's gotten worse the more time has gone on. Everybody gets thrown under the bus. That's also why I suspect Rey's turn is next. Which alone wouldn't have been the worst thing to happen but now it's just part of a very long and obnoxious pattern.

 

I am definitely not denying there is waaaaaay more evidence pointing to Kylo killing the Jedi but I am definitely curious as to how he became the leader of the KOR. I am also wondering if they had something to do with the massacre. The KOR not being Luke’s padawan’s and also existing before the massacre is definitely interesting information.

 

Pretty sure I recall Anakin owning up to killing the Tuskens and saying he should be better than this. Yes he said Obi Wan was holding him back but he showed remorse after his angry outburst.

He also expressed remorse over killing an unarmed Dooku. Palps was the one who tried to justify it afterwards.

George never once tried to put forth the idea that anyone but Anakin was to blame. The current directors et al are pushing the ideas in media/interviews that others are to blame for Kylo from the get go. I never heard Hayden give an I interview where he blames Obi Wan the way Driver blames Han and Leia.

I see no such attempts at taking ownership of his own deeds by Kylo.

 

What about when anakin actually turned, choked his wife and was all YOU TURNED HER AGAINST ME!

 

True, but that was early in his descent, when he was still mostly a good person (and even then he was complaining about Obi-wan, etc). We didn’t see that part of Kylo’s arc, who was already a full-on villain at the start of TFA. By the end of ROTS, which is most relevant when comparing Anakin and Kylo, Anakin blames all of his actions on other people. Obi-wan for holding him back and “turning Padme against him,” which is nonsense, the Jedi Council for not trusting him, Padme for allegedly betraying his trust (which she didn’t). He murders younglings, and justifies it because he thinks it’s a means to an end for preventing Padme’s death. It’s all the fault of others. I see no evidence of him owning up to those choices until ROTJ.

I’m not interested in apologizing for Kylo, or Anakin. They both whined their way into darkness.

 

Anakin constantly blamed people for what he did. He blamed Obi Wan for holding him back. He blamed the Jedi for stopping him from saving his mother. He blamed the Jedi for turning on him after he cut off Mace Windu’s hand. He blamed his desire to save Padme from death instead of his lust for power on why he turned to the dark side. He was haunted by the kiss Padme should have never given him.(He blamed Padme for his uncontrollable desires!). It wasn’t until he was redeemed he accepted responsibility for his actions. Before that he blamed everyone and everything.

 

Honestly I love the leaks if I'm gonna be honest my problems are kinda minor ones :

1. My desire for Ben to survive and Rey and Ben not necessarily as a relationship but live on or at least not get thrown aside so quickly after turning.

2. The ending...I love the idea of her telling someone passing by that she's a Skywalker but the ending feels too much like ROTJ and like Revenge in that it ends on Tatooine looking off at the two suns. It would have been nice to have something completely different as an ending but I get why this was done.

3. C3PO rumored as the most emotional scene of the movie. Idk bout anyone else but this kinda bums me out.....People literally die in this movie, people literally come back as force ghosts to help Rey at her most vulnerable, the ending with Rey saying she's a Skywalker....idk it just bums me out that of all these things that happen a Droid being wiped is the most sad.

4. My final thing is ..... I guess i was hoping for some deeper revelation in this since its the last Skywalker film. Palps being back just doesn't feel heavy enough for me. maybe because he comes back in the FINAL film of the ST only to be defeated again. It's very anti-climatic since he wasn't even in the other two at all. I hoped for something grander or different with the final movie but at the end of the day it's another PALP movie where he gets beat. Not only beat but beat by lightning being pushed back? meh

Hell they even have the knights of ren just sitting there and they're basically just the Red guards at the end of the day .....when they could have been used in a more unique way.


Honestly outside of these I love everything about the leaks.

 

The only reason i think this is possible is because you would have to believe Kylo got up and just started killing pupils because going AH **** and running for it while pupils make chase. And thats not very good story telling. You need to assume the events that followed were beyond basic and not what people expected.

Kylo isnt running off to tell his master his evil deed. It sounds like he is running out of desperation. Thats why people usually need a friend after all. It all sounds like a series of events.

Perhaps Kylo was defending himself. Maybe he just ran for it followed by some students. The KOR came in and killed the last of his students.

That is not to say i am confident thats the case, but when the comic focuses on the KOR and some history with Luke. You probably can expect they play a big part in the comic.

 

IF they are changing this temple backstory I think it has to do with the fact that Ben, Han and Leia originally had a tragedy in their past (the loss of a sister and daughter) that helped make Ben more susceptible to snoke. And that was his "excuse" if u will and made his path to redemption more easily accepted. But without that anymore, killing a bunch of innocent kids is all just a big misunderstanding!!!

But again I think these assumptions based on a short summary of the comic is a bit silly at this point. And I don't even see a "at the temple what really happened...." moment in TROS regardless.

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I had always assumed that in ep8 or ep9 we were going to get the full flashbacks of the ep7 flashback when Rey first touches the lightsaber. With JJ back at the helm it just seems like a given. And we know that KOR are in the movie/plot and it sounds like we get the answer on how Reys parents were killed, so it would seem likely we get those flashbacks in full.

 

He blamed Padme for his uncontrollable desires? That's a new one. He confused actual love with possessive love AND as soon as Padme told him it would never work, that they'd be forced to live a lie Anakin backed off.

When Padme admitted HER LOVE on Geonosis he was shocked. "You love me? I thought WE had decided not to fall in love."

I don't see how that's blaming her for how he felt.

The current powers that be have allowed a narrative that Kylo isn't to blame for his behavior and that was not a thing put forth by George regarding Anakin.