The Official "Chosen One" / Prophecy discussion thread

Yes, it is one of the things Star Wars, the 1977 film, is about. And how was the stage set for the hero's journey in that movie? With an incredibly visceral moment where Luke longingly gazes at the twin suns of Tatooine pondering his future. Just from that simple moment we know that a great destiny is awaiting him.

Lucas himself showed that there are better ways to set the stage for a hero's journey than an incredibly cliche and underdeveloped prophecy. And I fail to see how anyone could assert that it's sufficiently developed. Consider this, after the first mention of the prophecy in TPM, we literally do not learn one new detail about the prophecy in the rest of the PT. Who made it, when was it made, what it might mean. Not one.

 

Not true.

We learned in ROTS that the prophecy involves destroying the Sith ( presumably this was done so that the ADD crowd would finally connect the prophecy with ROTJ ).

In fact, in AOTC we learn that, according to the prophecy, the Chosen One is the only one who can bring balance to the Force. (That one's splitting hairs, I guess.)

 

The thing is Anakin's journey as a Hero was different than Luke's. Why do you and others think that because Anakin's journey was dissimilar to Luke's that it's "incredibly cliche and underdeveloped?" Infact Star Wars is all about cliche so you have no point there really. Arawn points out that this plot of the chosen one was not abandoned just not specified, my guess so that is doesn't take light off of Luke.

How is Luke's long gaze and Anakin's powerful desicion to leave his mother and not look back any less of a stage setting journey? Maby you just like to overlook that because you hold a bias to the PT, I don't know.

But the fact that there was this huge destiny for Anakin that was abandoned overlooked and neglected by everyone, is a story that's very solid in mythos.

And another note, we see the foreshadow of Anakins destiny and trials in TPM and then we get to AOTC. In AOTC we can clearly see he's powerful but this is the movie that magnifies on his faults here's no need to mention a prophecy when it has already been established.

 

Huh? I never said anything about the scene where Anakin leaves his mother. In fact, since you've correctly brought it up, maybe you can see the point of view that bringing in the "prophecy" plot device adds nothing to the story since Anakin already has his own personal destiny in mind.

 

That's the whole point! The prophecy plot device was shown that even this boy with a great destiny can rebel and fall, you can make your own choices, but ultimately you can't escape your destiny.

 

But why even throw in an element of predeterminism?

 

[Ankain didn't cause the dark times, Palpatine did when he became Chancellor and started the Clone Wars. All Anakin did was fail to stop it when he had the chance.

Anakin didn't initiate the original events that caused the dark times, but he was certainly instrumental in helping to create, sustain, and perpetuate it. If Anakin didn't help Palpatine there likely wouldn't have been an Empire.

 

Exactly!! I'm so glad someone else finally cares about this? By putting this predetermined element into the story it takes any signifcanec to choices of the characters and makes most of their struggle irrelevant. No matter what, Anakin was going to save the day in the end. Even if he turned evil and betrayed the Jedi, he was still destined to ultimately save the day. So basically, the PT has made the entire rebel struggle of the OT irrelant. Even if Luke was never trained, at some point Anakin would have still "balanced" the Force.

The prophecy was just a very abd idea.

 

The story is already predetermined since the OT came out first. What the PT did was bridge the gap between the two. In a lot of these mythology stories, the hero has a predetermined event, destiny, that they take part in. It's the natural progression of these stories. Luke's struggle is to help his father to fulfill his destiny. Both had a destiny laid out for them. Both had to face their destiny and not run from it. Anakin had a destiny which was to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. But along the way he falls in love and becomes emotionally attached. He becomes selfish and greedy. Anakin reaches a point where he has to fulfill his destiny. He has that one moment where he can do this. But he fails. He rejects his destiny out of greed and a lust for power. That is the first story. The second story is Luke's story. Luke has a heritage and a destiny that he is not yet aware of. He begins to make the journey towards his destiny, but along the way he learns a shocking truth about his father and his father's killer. They're one in the same man. Luke is not sure what he should do and feels that he needs to avoid his destiny, by not confronting his father again. Yoda tells Luke that he can never become a Jedi, if he does not face his father again. And Obi-wan tells him that he is their only hope. That by refusing to face Vader, he is damning them all to Palpatine. But as Luke comes to realize when he arrives at Endor, he cannot escape his destiny. He must face Darth Vader, but he chooses to do it his way. The Jedi and the Sith both say that it is Luke's destiny to join them, but he chooses for himself which path is his. He makes his own choices and is empowered by it. Anakin realizes that his son is right, he is still good. He cannot let Luke die for him. Anakin chooses to save Luke by killing Palpatine, knowing full well that it will kill him. At the same time, he knows that he is finally fulfilling his destiny.

It's not so much about the destiny itself, as it is about the choices we make in our life. That is where the story is. Anakin made choices and so did Luke. Anakin said yes and Luke said no. The destiny is the end result of these choices. The prophecy is the end point. The goal. The climax that leads into the falling action and resolution. But it's the rising action that is focused on heavily.

 

The predesternism I was referring to was not that that ultimate outcome has already been telgraphed to the viewer, but whether Anakin's choices are ultimately meaningless beacause they were all foretold.

Your interpretation of events seems to be the correct one, but again, the "Anakin fulfilling his destiny" adds nothing whatsoever to the scene. Zero. A personal moment between a father and a son has been reduced to a fulfillment of an ambiguous prophecy made by...some guy, or girl, somewhere, an unspecified amount of time ago. Woopty doo. Is that extra subtext to the scene so important that, essentially, an entire chapter had to be wasted just to introduce it, that the Clone Wars then couldn't be introduced until the end of Episode II, and so everything that everything important that SW fans had pondered for thirty years had to be shoehorned into the last half of the last movie? The answer is a resounding no.

 

Um..? Tell this to the countless people who got the story and understood it. Tell this to the people who loved the story and didn't find it a waste. You obviously do not have a very good concept of the fundamental beliefs of destiny.

A major idea of predesternism is that one can change his path as much as he wants but the ultimate destination will never change. So the idea of predesternism brings A GREAT deal to the story.

The personal moment between Vader and Son has now been magnified in meaning due to the prophecy. Two people with the same destiny with the same burden and great expectations wind up together. They are the only ones in the universe who really understand each other. They each decide and long to change the outcome of their lives. Vader wants to love Padme and have a life away from the burden he's been given. Luke wants to have and redeem his father. Through there decisions they both ultimatley fulfill thier destiny even though they didn't necessarily choose to. Their destiny seems to them a side effect of what they personally strove for.

Telling the stories of Palpatines rise, the story of Obi Wan, the story of Anakin/Vader, the story of the Republic, the Empire, the Sith, our two droids, Yoda, and countless others who weren't known back in 77'. Weaving these characters stories and making suspense and having simply a story we love to watch and believe in the way George and Co have done is something rarely done good. You make a story developing all this, having countless people enjoy it, and still remain true to a 30 year old classic and then I'll consider your accusations of this horrible plot device because so far all you have is a argument based on hindsight.

Sinister states that inevitability and destiny is profound in stories and mythology. Every hero has an ultimate destiny that they can choose to embrace or run away from but eventually their destiny catches up with them no matter what. Michael Corleone, Neo, Aragorn, you name it.

Meaningless? Absolutley not.

An argument based on errant accusations to great stories? That may be.

 

Simply adding a prophecy to a story does not automatically make the story better or more profound. Like all things, it is HOW this element is used within the story that matters. And in this case I feel that the prophecy was underdeveloped and thus it felt redundant and the story would have been better served by removing it.
Also you contradict yourself, if predeterminism works then you CAN NOT change your destiny, you may think that you did but you did not. If Anakin was predestined to destroy the Sith then it would not matter what he did or what he himself wanted, he would destroy the Sith anyway. This way you remove the element of choice and free will, Anakin must destroy the Sith regardless of his own wishes.

In Michael Corleones and Aragorns case there was no prophecy spoken off in the films and would the godfather movies have been much better if there had been some prophecy about Michael "bringing balance to the mob"? For Aragorn he was the heir to the throne of Gondor and at first he had turned away from that because he did not want that kind of power. He grows and changes along the way and in the end he takes on the mantle. But there was no prophecy, spoken by some unknown and worded in a rather odd way. In Neos case the prophecy was developed a great deal more and even turned on it's head when the prophecy was revealed to be a lie, created by the machines.

You can certainly have a prophecy and if developed well it could add to the story but to simply add it and then not develop it properly that is not so good to me.

In this case you have a prophecy that gets a few mentions in the first half of the story and then is dropped completely in the second half.
Part of it has to do with a change in who the central character is. In the OT, Luke is the hero and the central character, Lucas has even said that Star Wars was about Luke. Now with the PT and the overall change to Anakin being the central character and having a prophecy about him the OT does not quite match that.

You could have some prophecy about a saviour in times of darkness and the jedi belive it to be Anakin but later then realize it is Luke. So they had the right idea but the wrong Skywalker.

Regards
Nordom

 

Excellent points Nordom. And to add to some of what you said, in the Matrix, the writers went the next step of pointing out the flaws of a ?prophecy? and a ?Chosen One? who must fulfill his destiny to save humanity, no matter what. Neo at the end of Matrix Reloaded is told that if he chooses the left door that Zion and potentially all human beings on the planet will be destroyed, and he chooses it anyway! This despite the fact his entire path as The One up to that point was leading him to fulfill his destiny as prophesized by the Oracle to sacrifice himself and ?save the world?.

He is clearly not following the agape love, cookie cutter messianic pattern. He chooses to take the door where he has a chance to save the woman he loves with the hope he can save humanity from the machines as well. This is a very powerful point in the film.

In Star Wars as Nordom has pointed out, Anakin has no free will. Even when he makes every last wrong, evil, self-centered choice he will still ultimately save the day. It in effect, delegitamizes almost all of the OT since Anakin was at some point predetermined to take down the Sith regardless of what Luke or the rebels ever did.

Throw in a severe underdevelopment of this prophecy and it really has no point in the saga at all. It?s just a negative. The Jedi never give it the respect or attention Anakin or the prophecy warrant. And their attitude that ?perhaps we misread it? in the 11th hour is even more ridiculous. What did they misread? How were they wrong? We never know.

That?s an interesting point about the Jedi possibly misreading the prophecy in thinking Anakin was the Chosen One, but in actuality it was Luke. At least that explanation could make some sense (since Luke is born at a time when the Sith are dominating and ultimately brings some balance, by pulling Vader back to the good side). Unfortunately the films never allude to this at all.

 

Anakin would only turn on the Sith, if he was a good man and not an evil one. That's what the prophecy hinges on. It's not the mere act of killing Darth Sidious himself that restores balance, but it is the deaths of two Sith Lords that ends the chaos. One of those Sith Lords is Anakin. If as Darth Vader he killed Palpatine, he would not bring balance as he remains as the surviving Sith Lord. If Luke killed Palpatine and joined his father, they would both be Sith. If Luke killed Vader and joined Palpatine, then there would still be two Sith and no Chosen One. But if Anakin kills Palpatine and dies shortly after as a result of this, then the Force will be balanced.

 

You can interpret the entire sage several ways through the hero's journey myth:

1.) The prequel only evidence view of Anakin: When the hero (Anakin) enters the Abyss, he fails to make (the correct) spiritual transformation, and becomes the clown. He is a mockery of the hero, and "mankind" does not benefit from whatever change the hero was supposed to bring with him. Instead, he plunges "the world" into a new dark age. This can be combined with #2 in a variety of ways...

2.) The original trilogy evidence of Luke: Luke is the classic hero, patterned almost perfectly on Joseph Campbell's hero's journey formula in Episode IV, although you can see a greater version of the myth repeated again from IV-VI. You can look at Luke as the redeemer of Anakin, and being the "true" chosen one (despite what Lucas has said) or the saviour of the chosen one... or simply as the chosen one and ignore the PT evidence.

3.) The PT and OT evidence view of Anakin: Just like Luke's Episode IV hero's journey is echoed again in IV-VI, so is Anakin's in I-VI. Rather then seeing the fall of Anakin Skywalker resulting in him becoming the clown only, we can see the entirety of IV, V, and most of VI as Anakin's abyss, and he returns in the end to bring balance to the force for all the world. This is most closely inline with Lucas's current stance on Anakin as the Chosen One.

-TJ

 

Spinning out of a totally off topic discussion about Yoda considering the consequences of his fight with Palpatine, this post is a continuation of that other one. As we know, the Force goes out of balance in ROTS and is balanced again, when Anakin destroys the Sith in ROTJ. Yet a debate was sparked as to whether the Force was ever really balanced or will ever become balanced. As the films and Lucas state, the Force is of two sides, good and evil. Both fighting against each other with the Jedi and the Sith in the middle of it. The Jedi fight to preserve the peace, while the Sith seek to destroy that peace and impose their will. When Palpatine becomes Emperor and Anakin is convereted, the Force goes fully out of balance. The balance comes with the death of both Vader and Sidious. The dark side is no longer the dominating factor and is once again on a playing feild. Some people believe that this is not true. That the Force does not have two sides, no matter what George Lucas says and the films do not state what balance to the Force is. Much less if the Jedi were ultimately right, as they think that they and the Sith were both wrong. Much like the Potentium of the eu, which says that the Force does not have two sides. Even though the story of Star Wars is about duality.

 

About the prophecy,

First, what matters is what is IN the films, what Lucas says or what the EU says is secondary. The films should be able to stand on their own, if you need other sources, like Lucas or some books then the films have done a poor job presenting the story.

Second, I feel that the prophecy, as it is IN the films, is underdeveloped, it is just thrown out there with very little developing and in the second half of the story it is not even spoken off.

But lets focus on what we DO know, which is not all that much.

First, in TPM we are told about a prophecy about someone that will bring balance to the force and Qui-Gon thinks this someone is Anakin. The reason seems to be because Anakin has more midis than Yoda and his mother says he did not have a father.
In AotC we do not learn very much more except that Anakin is viewed as ?the chosen one? by the other jedi.
Then in RotS we learn that the jedi suddenly have doubts about the prophecy, perhaps they got it wrong, perhaps it does not mean what they think it means, perhaps it is flat out false. Later we learn that the jedi, or at least Obi-Wan thought that Anakin was meant to kill all the sith. But this could very well be wrong as the jedi had already expressed doubt about the prophecy.
Then in the OT the prophecy is never spoken off at all.

Now what are the things we do NOT know?
This is a far longer list.

We do not know when the prophecy was made, by whom or why the jedi think it is important. As I said before, if the jedi really believed that the prophecy spoke of someone killing all the sith then before TPM they would not have paid any attention to this prophecy.

Since all jedi have an ability to see the future but are also aware that the future is always in motion we never learn what is different about this prophecy, what separated this from all the other things a jedi can see through the force?

We never know what the prophecy actual said, all we hear is about bring balance to the force.

Was the force balanced in TPM, was it balanced in AotC, are there degrees to how much the force is unbalanced or are only two states that the force can be, total balance or totally out of balance.

We never learn why the jedi thought that balance = kill all sith or why they suddenly became unsure about the prophecy and what it meant.
Also, if any sith living = unbalanced force, we are left to wonder, has the force ever been balanced in the last few thousand years. Since there has been sith living for at least 1000 years, perhaps longer, has the force ever been in balance in all this time? Was the force unbalanced the last time the sith moved openly, if so was there some prophecy about a chosen one there? Further was the jedi aware that the force had been unbalanced for so long and if so why did they not immediately suspect that the sith were alive. Or when Anakin is presented as the chosen one in TPM, for that to be true the Sith HAS to be around otherwise the force would be balanced. But why doesn?t any jedi connect Qui-Gons run in with a potential sith with the sudden appearance of the one who will kill all sith.

If the jedi are wrong about balance meaning kill all sith then what does it mean?
An equal number of sith and jedi? We have that in ANH but after RotJ there seems to be no more sith which would mean the force is not balanced.

If the force WAS balanced in TPM and only got unbalanced in RotS with Palpatine taking power then you can restore balance in more ways than simply kill all sith.
If the sith lost most of their power than that would work as well.
Say if Anakin killed Palpatine right after RotS but did as a sith and then tried to rule in Palpatines place. Because Anakin does not have Palpatine political savvy and his connections the senate would probably turn against him and say that they throw him out and restore the republic and the remaining jedi come out and rebuild the order while Anakin runs to some forgotten planet and sulks. Would this balance the force?

Perhaps bring balance means turning back from the d

 

To continue on my point from the other thread. If Lucas says it has two sides than it has two sides. Just because some do not believe - though I feel it was - explicitly stated in the films doesn't make it untrue. The films can only cover so much material. If Lucas says that Obi-Wan spent the entire 19 years after ROTS on Tatooine, then he did; you would be incorrect in thinking "nah, I think he went off to save his fellow jedi" since we are talking about something tangible in the story, i.e. not up for interpretation. Some people are trying to interpret something that isn't there. And sometimes in a film some dialogue just wouldn't fit. I mean, we never know exactly what the prophecy says and why would we? All the Jedi are familiar with the prophecy so why would they be going over it word for word in the film? It wouldn't feel right. Instead we are told only what we need to know; that there is a chosen one and he will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force. If Lucas comes out and says what the prophecy said, then that should take priority over your "interpretations" since in fact you are not "interpreting" anything. You are making your own story up to fill in a gap. Again, as I said in the previous thread, Lucas cannot tell you how to feel, but he can tell you the nature of his story.

If I were to go around with a picture of dead Nazis, you may have a feeling of pity or you may have a feeling of "good riddance;" I cannot tell you how to feel. Now, if I point out one particular individual in the photograph, say I knew him, and tell you that he didn't believe in what he was fighting for and just wanted the war to end to get back to his family, you can't exactly rewrite reality and tell me "no, I choose to believe that he was a genocidal maniac." Likewise the prophecy is a tangible thing that exists in the reality of Lucas' story. If he tells you what it says, then his word takes authority.

 

The prophecy is not spoken in the OT, but it does come to pass in ROTJ. Obi-wan said that Anakin was to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness. That tells us that the Force is shrouded in darkness, which Yoda told us in AOTC when he said that the shroud of the dark side has fallen. The Chosen One was supposed to destroy the Sith to bring balance. To lift the veil of darkness. Well, lo and behold that's what happens in ROTJ. The Jedi don't talk about it because they've lost faith in it.

 

Who made the Prophecy?????

 

Obviously a Jedi, since a Sith prophecy wouldn't be so important to the Jedi.

 

Not only that, but, the Jedi probably have very limited knowledge regarding Sith prophecies. Easy for the Sith to learn Jedi prophecies, convert a Jedi Master. Easy for the Jedi to learn Sith prophecies? Not so much.

 

Right. So what we have is a Jedi who forsaw something long ago. The Jedi following the last major battle with the Sith, come to think that it is not possible for the Sith to return without their knowing it. But lo and behold, the Sith were never gone. They were there the whole time and the Jedi never realized it, until it was too late. The dark side grows stronger over the light, leading us to the moment in ROTS, where Anakin can fulfill his destiny. But he fails and doesn't take another shot for 20 some years. Which just happens to be in ROTJ.

 

It should be noted that the prophecy must say something about the midichlorians. This is implied by Qui-Gon and Mace's dialogue in TPM. As far as I know, the only book author to express this idea was Terry Brooks.

 

Yes, good point. I'm surprised Luke hasn't come up more often in this thread.

The Jedi felt being detached and free from love is the way to avoid the path to evil (via possession and greed) etc whereas Luke showed that love can help you do things you wouldn't otherwise be able to do. (eg: risk yourself to save your friends in Cloud City/see that Vader still had 'good' in him).

Luke did for Vader what the Jedi should have ... help him get in touch with his feelings ... of love -the antidote for greed, anger, fear. Intersting, Luke's doing this brought Vader's personal salvation as well as fulfilled the prophecy. And Luke threw down his weapon, prepared to die rather then fall into the Sith's trap of doing the wrong thing to save someone you love.