Books The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

I...but canonically, Talzin is his mother, yeah? I mean, I thought his mother was Dathomiri in this book as well as in canon.

 

Aren't Dathomori now just what you get when you have a Zabrak Adam and Human Eve? They're biracial (since apparently Zabrak is a new ethnicity/race of human), and the males look like Zabraks and the females look like Humans. I think the other main branch of Zabrak has females that are also horned but I'm not sure. Who knows, it's a weird mess.

 

Cloak of Deception also was the first time Jorus C'baoth and Vergere were shown in Old Republic settings, too. Same with a number of Bantam-era elements being integrated into the prequel era.

Also the first example of a Supreme Chancellor going to an alien opera performance on Coruscant.

 

The bounty-hunter Sugi is a pure bread Iridonian Zabrak woman with horns and hair. You can spot her in some TCW-episodes, in "Eminence" even together with Maul.

 

It's not all thaat clear, and doesn't make much sense if you ask me. The Databank defines DathomirIANS (note the ending) like this:

"Inhabitants of" might imply that Dathomirian is a demonym. The fact that Maul has been described as a "Dathomirian Zabrak" (i.e. a Zabrak from Dathomir) reinforces that idea.
BUT, the Databank describes Talzin's and Old Daka's species as Dathomirian.

Also, even a million similar hybrids do not make a species. All mules are the offspring of male donkeys and a female horses, but there's no "mule species".

The whole Dathomirian race issue is pretty messed up and nonsensical if you ask me.

 

I'm not sure if this is an appropriate thread to post the following link in, but I just created a video covering the pursuit of immortality by Plagueis & other Sith Lords, referencing the novel.

 

I think Darth Plagueis should have came back and be the main villain of the Sequel Trilogy. It would have made a lot more sense than bringing Darth Sidious back in my opinion.

 

I'd have liked it on the level of the guy being so terrified of Sidious that he was only willing to re-emerge once he was truly dead and gone.

 

I was thinking it might have been neat if TFA and TLJ had been left unchanged, but in TRoS it was revealed that Snoke was actually Plagueis (his real name being Snoke in the new canon) and he actually had discovered a way to survive death.

TRoS itself wouldn't even need to be changed much. The biggest thing would be removing Rey's familial connection to the Big Bad.

 

What has Rey's descendance from Palpatine to do with Snoke being Plagueis? It would had added even more depth to an altered TROS. Ben as the heir of the Plagueis-created Skywalker bloodline and Rey as the grand-daughter of his apprentice - all united now. It would have made sense too that Snoke as Plagueis did create such a force-bond between the two of them to make amends for bringing Palpatine to power and Palpatine tries to thwart that. I don't like Snoke to be a mere puppet of Palpy.

 

Back in 2011 I was ecstatic at finally getting a book about Darth Plagueis, it marked the culmination of years of EU material from the PT for me. And really it was the last hurrah of the EU. But I’m also appreciative of the reset that came with Disney. Suddenly everything we’d been eager to learn was up in the air. Which was exciting, especially because it seemed to entail sticking closer to Lucas’s version of events.

Of course things changed as time passed, and at this point Star Wars is becoming more removed from Lucas’s vision again. Though there are at least spiritual successors with closer ties to Lucas than in the past.

So if Plagueis is ever explored, I certainly hope they go a different route. I’m not the biggest fan of one canon or trying to bring back too many things from Legends. I loved it in its time, and still do, but I’d like to see new things. And yes, that does mean no Muun banker Plagueis!

 

Just another example of, that everything before the word "but" doesn't have any weight. With what kind of character will Disney Star Wars probably replace the Muun banker Hego Damask? With just another male white old guy, because this is the enemy stereotype nowadays and because they are too lazy afraid to use a good CGI design or good masks? There are far too few interesting members of other species in the ST and I don't like this mono culture to prevail.

 

I disagree, it’s just a conjunction, I do mean what I said before. What I’m curious to see is what else they could do with the character. Damask was essentially another Palpatine. I’d rather see a much more different approach.

As for what they might consider, I would not assume they’d go for something so bland. For example, Lucas originally pointed to this concept art piece as a starting point for the publishing group years ago when they were thinking of using the character:



Not that he’d literally be a Neimoidian, rather it’s the overall look. Which also reminds me of some other concept art that McCaig made for Sith Lords:



The huge raggedy cloak suggests something much different, more of a desert hermit, somewhat similar to Tor Valum in Trevorrow’s script, rather than what we’re more familiar with. This is just an example of what I think would be cool, based on what’s been suggested. He could be a more primal Sith Lord, more obviously demonic, closer to being a force of nature, and fit to be the Emperor’s teacher and the one to discover a way to cheat death.

 

@Sauron_18,
Maybe your ideas do fall on fertile ground, if new directors should overhaul the sequels in due time. But to use your keyword "bland": I'm happy that Darth Plagueis wasn't in the sequels.

 

Lucas proposed that Plagueis to be a Muun, and that also applies to current canon as well I believe.

As for the ST, they would've killed him off quickly and stupidly like Snoke or how Vallum was in the script(s) for a few minutes and gets killed like an idiot. We're better off that the character never existed. Heck even clone Palpatine appeared briefly and dies quickly soon after. Plagueis was basically a super being, and with Sidious murdered him in is sleep I kinda doubt he'd not make sure that he was dead - after murdering him.

Vallum didnt even make any sense in the Trevorrow script, he was an evil variant of Yoda placed in the movie, "go to Remicore and find the Sith Master who instructed me " deal, but with Palpatine serving as a hologram evil version of Ben Kenobi from ESB. From the concept art Tor sorta resembled a Zefro , or a related sub-species or a mutated one. Trevorrow's script was interesting but it kind went off path on established lore and did its own thing with Vallum and Mortis. You'd need a lot of reworking, and it would've made more sense of Vallum as the master of Snoke and left out Palpatine completely. In any case the ST should've been 6 movies like Harry Potter or something, and not a trilogy imo.

 

It doesn’t. Wookieepedia says he’s a Muun on his canon page because they consider FFG sourcebooks canon, which they aren’t.


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Based on what James Luceno and Pablo Hidalgo have said about the Plagueis book, Lucas pointed to the concept art of the Neimoidian shown above as a possible starting point for what Publishing could do with the character. And then Luceno asked Lucas if there was any reason why Plagueis could not be a Muun, and Lucas was fine with that. So really that came from Luceno; I don’t know if Lucas had defined that too well in his mind.

I agree that I’m glad Plagueis did not make an appearance in the sequels. It’s interesting that Tor Valum’s vampiric power did make it to the final movie, and it would’ve been cool to see him realized, but I agree that he dies too quickly and has too minor a role for such a cool concept. But seeing him we would’ve gotten a glimpse at the ancient Sith, so that would have been cool, even if we still have that to some degree with Exegol.

And Lucas did have some more concrete ideas about the ancient Sith, since early treatments for Episode I actually dealt with the origin and original destruction of the Sith Order. So maybe Trevorrow got some ideas from that?

 

Tor Valum is a interesting concept but I feel like his execution is odd. Not only does he call himself "Master of the Sith" despite being 7000 years old apparently but the timelines and what we know about the Sith, the Rule of Two, etc etc just seems confusing. Plus the fact that he was active when Palpatine was around and Palpatine didn't do anything about it seems odd.

Now Tor Valum as a villain that re-awakens in a Ep 10 per-say and is new and active again...I-I wouldn't mind that.

 

The "Canon" tab contains information from works published from 2015 onwards, including FFG. So indeed they are as close to canon as one can get - namely if not in a movie or otherwise discarded by a higher level source. In any event, I doubt he was human, Muun works and so far stays.

 

Tor Valum was a terrible idea, and I'm glad it was nixed.

 

I do find Tor Valum interesting. But I agree that it would've been an odd addition. Not so much in terms of lore, because there's ways of explaining that. But his role is so minimal that it would've fallen flat. Part of me wonders if Tor Valum was added to this draft just to replace whatever role Snoke might have otherwise had. At that point in time, they were very similar as far as fans were concerned: both were ancient aliens of unknown origin somehow associated with the Sith. Tor Valum is not necessarily described as a Sith himself, just a master of Sith. So in terms of his and Snoke's original place in the wider SW lore, I can see them being dark-side teachers whom the Sith trained with but who were not themselves Sith. In Snoke's case, though, he would've taken advantage of the power vacuum left by the Sith's death.

 

@Sauron_18

Later drafts from what i heard did cut out Tor Valum and instead had Kylo go to Darth Plagueis tomb or something to get his Holocron. Or so i recall.

 

Interesting. I looked it up and that sounds accurate. Trevorrow definitely seemed intent on referencing more obscure things like Plagueis and Mortis. In many ways he seems like more of a fan than even the casual viewer. I wonder why he tried to tie in Plagueis in such strange ways. In neither draft does he have a lot of relevance, he’s part of the plot device but not actually important. Maybe it was his way at teasing fans for their Snoke/Plagueis theories?

 

The “Canon” tab, when using FFG as a source, contains information that is not canon, because FFG is not canon. All it does is serve to confuse people.


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Trevorrow's issue is that he references a lot of stuff fans like with little to no thematic relevance...It's sorta the ultimate fan thing of "Hey, it's the thing you like even though it's not really necessary" adding to my already disdain for Duel of Fates.

When people complain about Fan Service....This is what I think of.

However a Sith lair, the Force-Healing powers and the third Villain are things carried over into TROS. The Sith Lair being exegol, Force Healing obviously and the Third Villain to ease Kylo's "redemption" being Palpatine...Naturally.