The Official Fate of the Jedi III: Abyss Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Now this is more intresting. I'm glad you mentioned that.

Everything i'd read seemed to indicate the whole "mad at jaina" stuff eitheir happened off screen, or in very breif detail. We just got the after effects.

If you have some much more detailed vershion than whats been mentioned so far could you give a breif sumary for me?

Also i think your once again misinterpereting me here.

I'm not arguing over what the master said.

I'm, saying:

1. The rules on what a Jedi's duty are are quite clearly laid out elsewhere.

2. Jaina not telling the Jedi what she know quite clearly contravenes those rules. She's abbandoned her duty to them.

3. It's also quite clear ATM that it was for personol reasons.

4. That makes it doubly out of character, not only has jaina allways put her duty first. But she's delibrelty sacraficed personol stuff for it before.

5. Given what she's done, and what Luke said in DNIII the Jedi order has complete justification for demanding her lightsabre and throwing her out on her ear if it wants.

6. This is where things like personol bias come in. Whilst their quite mad at her they haven't done that. But that dosen't change the facts. or that they would be fully justified in doing that.


Regarding the IK's.


The IK's by their very nature act in oppossittion to the Jedi. They follow diffrent ideals which means in any given situation their likliy to have 2 diffrent veiwopoints and both are going to activly work to make their veiwpoints happen.

That is most defintly going to bring them into open conflict. If Jaina founds the IK's she's going to know that. So she has to be willing to accept that by founding them they're going to be activlly attacking, and possibbly even killing her old Jedi freinds in the line of their duty.

Jaina isn't going to found somthing with such potentiolly lethal consuquences for the jedi unless she's bassiclly disavowed them completly.

Legacy just isn't realistic.

Theirs no way for two large powerful galactic scale force groups with diffrent aims to co-exist without conflict and friction.

 

I guess they should retcon Legacy as being 100 years later 200+ ABY to make it so that enough time passes that everyone alive right now in the books is dead by the time Legacy comes around.

It'll also give time for the IKs to become more dissatisfied with the main order and break off to their current views of following and defending the Emperor as the Jedi would the Force. Because like you said, we're only 1 or 2 more generations of Jedi/Imperial Knights away from Legacy, and the IKs follow a code to greatly different than the Jedi code.

Also the fact that they are pretty much pushing the story to fit into the Legacy era in what I perceive too fast. Considering you have Jag asking once a book when Jaina was going to move into Imperial space and start her own Jedi conclave.

 

Awesome book! I burned through it in a few hours. Now Fate of the Jedi has got me. It has me. Best Denning book since...I can't remember. It's a much deeper novel than Inferno and I LOVED Inferno. If we were hungry for the metaphysical stuff we were missing with the Baran Do sages and the Aang-Tii, Abyss makes up for that in spades with the Mind Drinkers.

I love what Denning has done with this Sith and how they've come into play for Luke and Ben. What an ornate, vicious, paranoid group. I loved what was done with them.

I was enthralled by each subplot. I like the way things are progressing at the Jedi temple. It bored me in greatly in Omen but not here. This was a real page turner!

More later but, well done, Mr. Denning! This is what I wanted in FotJ!

Well, that was such a fast, cramped and dirty fight. And with the Sith killing each other as well as attempting to kill Ben and Luke. Never seen that kind of thing before. I wouldn't expect any real saber fighting in what we've seen so far. However, Ben hasn't shown himself to be any less skilled than the Kresh Sith so far. He handled himself quite well actually.

 

Theirs no way for two large powerful galactic scale force groups with diffrent aims to co-exist without conflict and friction.

I think it's entirely possible for Jaina to think of them as Jedi Knights in the Imperial system and any current problems to be just essentially resolved.

 

Jedi knight with complty diffrent aims and ideals.

err. right, whatever :sarcastic:.

The IK's ideology is vastly diffrent to the jedi's. There's no practical way to to see them as anything but what they are, A completly diffrent set of force users with a completly diffrent set of priorities that will inevatable bring them into conflict with the Jedi.

Sombody else also raised a good point, given the current time frame it's getting less and less realistic for Ben and Jaina's children to not still be around. And it's even within reason that ben could still be around.

Hell Looking at how well leia and Luke are aging Jaina even has a shot at surviving that long, albit very wrinkly.

Legacy just wasn't thought out well with regards to how it fitted into the existing EU.

 

This is true, and I guess he did kill a Sith didn't he? I might have to re-read but Lady Rhea made such a terrible mistake by turning away from the battle, it seemed kind of a cheap way to have her killed. That was a shock, I expected her to stick around for a few more books, but Im glad to see that they're not letting characters live just for the sake of it.

 

Jedi knight with complty diffrent aims and ideals.

How?

You've said this but provided no detail. The only difference is one serves the Republic and one serves the Emperor.

 

I find that funny, because in we've seen in KOTOR that the Sith destroy each other from ambition, and it's good to see other Sith doing the same crap to each other.

 

Since i went into the whole duty of a jedi thing a while back i figured it should be pretty obvious.

The jedi are their to help everyone, (generally help means save their lives as most things less serious than that can be dealt with by non-jedi though exceptions exist), they certianly DON'T serve the republic. They're simply allied with it because it happens to have similar ideals to them and is willing to support them in pursuit of theirs. DN and LOTF both showed the order willing to tell the GA to get lost if it suited them so the merely allies thing is reality as well as theory, (for the old order it was are more theroy than reality most of the time).

The IK instead are bound to follow the emporor who is bound to furthar the intrests of the empire.


If you really need a condensed vershion here it is:

The jedi are supposed to heklp everyone to the detriment of no one, (or as few as possibble).

the IK's are supposed to do whatever the emporor tells them is best for the empire, even if thats to the detriment of others.

Theirs going to be a LOT of situations where whats best for the empire isn't whats best for the rest of the galaxy, or the local populance in question.


If you can't see how that creates conflict i don't know.

It's like an aristochracht who helps the poor trying to get along peacfully with another aristochrat who keeps kicking the poor back into the gutter for his own benefit. It's just not going to end well.

 

The IKs are certainly different from the Jedi, but the two sides have a lot more in common than they do with, say, the Sith. The Jedi serve the will of the Force; the IKs serve the will of the Force as embodied by the Emperor, whom they see as a neccessary part of a stable and peaceful galaxy. They don't follow him blindly, though, and even act as a kind of check on his power- remember, it's part of their duty to remove an Emperor who becomes corrupted.

In other words, the IKs are basically Jedi who a). focus more heavily on the martial aspect and b). are more closely aligned with a particular government. There's certainly room for conflict there, but there's also plenty of room for both to coexist. Note that in Legacy the two groups don't seem to particularly like each other, but they do respect each other's viewpoints and abilities, and I feel this largely sums up the Jedi/IK relationship. Early IKs, possibly under Jaina, would be even closer to Jedi as they haven't yet had time to develop their own philosophies and traditions.

 

The entire point of this Jag-Jaina Mando subplot is to try to drive a wedge between Jag, Jaina, the Jedi and parties yet to be named. It?s not about the Mandos at all. It?s questionable that Mandos were even hired.

Jag finding out about the Mandos is not accidental. It was deliberately leaked for Jag to either not tell Jaina and have it be revealed that he knew which would cause problems (or a total breakup) between Jag and Jaina and problems between Jag and the Jedi. If Jag tells the Jedi and he?s caused problems with his own government. In the scene, Jag and Jaina consider that the leak is deliberate misinformation. Jag concludes that the aide who leaked it would be above such things, but comments from the aide?s own POV suggest that may not be the case. I don?t think that either Jag or Jaina is contemplating that the Mandos could destroy the Order. It?s worrisome, but I don?t think they Mandos have that kind of credibility with any author but Traviss. Certainly not in Denning?s universe, and this is his book.

The way this came down at the end of Abyss is that the information from Daala?s office successfully ?played? the Jedi. The Jedi are without the overt friendliness with the IR without Jag?s covert support, the Masters have issues with Jag and Jaina has problems with her parentsand it?s not even obvious that it was Daala?s office causing the rift. Pretty effective, yes?

Don?t forget that this is Denning and the parallel to DN was very clearly made. Jaina put her allegiances to the Jedi above a promise she made to Jag once before and it ended badly for Jaina and Jag individually and the Jedi as an Order. This time, they?ve stuck together?.you get where this is going. What has also not been posted here is that at the end of the book, Jaina has been sent home to consider whether she can be a Jedi and be married to a head of state. They did this too, in DN, with TenelKa, who the Order then let back in when it was convenient for them. Ultimately, she?s been of service to the Order in more ways as the Queen Mother than she ever could have been as a Knight. I think we may be seeing some of that too.

Of course there is. The entire motto of the Empire of which Jaina is lik

 

Right here.

http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/30301998/p5

Go about half-way down and it's in the HTR bit of my post there.

Yes, they were in TDN by Luke himself. Which he later broke when he allowed Jacen to start skipping down a darker path without consequence. He allowed his personal feelings to dictate what should have been a matter of Jedi policy. So why hasn't he turned in his lightsabre?

A Jedi's duty toward the Force itself outweighs any council decision. And I'm thinking that the Force would approve of galactic peace after so much unneccessary and preventable bloodshed.

I'd caution you against making assumptions without having actually read the text in question. Basing an opinion on other people's opinions/spoilers is slippery intellectual ground.

"A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker

If the Jedi are guardians of peace... then by their own grand masters words, they serve the Galactic Alliance.

Like they way they are currently in conflict with the Fallanassi, the Witches of Dathomir, the Aing-Tii ect.?

CJM

 

I'm not arguing any of that, thats what i mean by misinterpratation.

What i'm aruing is that given what the threat was, (regardless of it's likliehood), and given the stated known duties of a jedi their is no way to justify Jaina not telling the Jedi.

non of those are galaxy spanning organisation with aims apposed to those of the jdi, or if they are they're limited to one world where the jedi largely never go.

When your dealing with an organisation that can and will turn up any time anywhere with it's own agenda it's a diffrent matter. the Dathimor, Fallanassi, Aing-Tii e.t.c are incapable of interfering in what the jedi are doing or getting in the way of the jedis mission on a galactic scale.


Ultimetly Jaina has a duty to protect the oprder.

The Mando stuff was a threat to the order.

thus in order to still be doing her duty she had to tell them.

there is and can be no migating cicumstances in that. There's simply no possibble justification, (beyond obviously being held prisnor et al) for not telling the Jedi.

I also agree theirs some DN simalrities here. I mentioned that myself. but thats why this is such a destruction of Jaina's character. Jaina hasn't put personol beofre the Jedi since Anakin died. It's simply not in character for her to do so now.

And a minor correction, unless FoTJ has changed it, Tenel Ka was never let back into the order, she is however a close freind and ally of theirs.

their is however one key diffrance here. Tenel on several occashions has put hapes in danger to help the Jedi, (LoTF being most notable), Jag clearly isn't willing to do the same. And Jaina is willing to go along with that, how far they'll go is up for debate, but that they're willing to not help the jedi unless it dosen't hurt the IR is clear. They're simply not willing to go as far to aid the jedi as Tenel is and that puts them a long way outside that range.


Your points, (and others) abiout the IK's are kinda ok.

yes they're closer to jedi than the Sith. And yes the empire is supposedly peacful.

But it's also trying to activlly expand it's borders. Jag may not be an invader, but he defintly wants the NGE as the sole dominant power in the galaxy, just look at the IM. And what better way to do that than to "offer" the services of the IK's to mediate a problem for a prospective planet he want's to add. But of course the jedi will likliy send somone as well, (outside the NGE anyway, i don't see jag letting jedi oporate inside the NGE, it looks bad). One is j

 

The Emperor is basically just the "Grand Master" of the Imperial Knights. And, as Ganner Krieg said, if the Emperor ever turns to the dark side then is is the duty of the Imperial Knights to redeem or kill the Emperor.

The Imperial Knights do not just blindly follow the Empire (or they would have joined Krayt) or the Emperor (as Ganner and Azlyn showed when Roan asked for the talisman). They only follow the Emperor because they think he knows the will of the Force best.

Basically (for a real world comparison, which I may regret), the Imperial Knights are Catholics loyal to the Pope (The Emperor), the Jedi Knights are Protestants loyal to their own interpretation of the Bible (the will of the Force).

Both Imperial Knights and Jedi Knights follow the Force, they have the same ideals and goals, they just have different methods of following it.

I think there are only a few dozen Imperial Knights, anyways. And Roan Fel never permitted the Imperial Knights to engage in the Sith-Imperial War.




For Jaina and Jag not telling the Jedi...

-doing so would lead to civil war. Do you really want Jag to have let his personal attachment to the Jedi cloud his duties as a leader to keeping the galactic peace? Jag agreed to lead the Empire in INVINCIBLE, because, as he said, "if it ENDS THE WAR." Why would he do anything to lead to another war? Jedi died to end that war, Jaina killer her brother to end that war, why would they risk all that to tell the Jedi an obvious secret? If he had told the Jedi, it would have destroyed everything the Jedi fought so hard to build.

-are the Jedi really so stupid to think that Daala wouldn't use the Mandalorians? She was cozy was Boba Fett, and has been using then as her personal security commandos for two years. The Mandalorians should have been EXPECTED, and not a surprise.

-the Jedi can perfectly take care of themselves, especially against the puny Mandalorians

-Jaina, and Jag especially, already proved their loyalty and dedication to the Jedi Order in OUTCAST, when they personally went out ot their way to capture Seff Hellin before Daala's bounty hunters and GA security got him. He risked his own neck for that. And this is how the Jedi repay him?

 

-doing so would lead to civil war. Do you really want Jag to have let his personal attachment to the Jedi cloud his duties as a leader to keeping the galactic peace? Jag agreed to lead the Empire in INVINCIBLE, because, as he said, "if it ENDS THE WAR." Why would he do anything to lead to another war? Jedi died to end that war, Jaina killer her brother to end that war, why would they risk all that to tell the Jedi an obvious secret? If he had told the Jedi, it would have destroyed everything the Jedi fought so hard to build.

Civil war is better than the alternative. Without the Jedi, it's another 1,000 year darkness underneath the Sith Empire.

 

1. Daala and the Mandalorians will not be able to kill off the Jedi Order
2. If anything, they will be under surveillance or banished/disbanded until the Jedi's PR improves
3. The Sith already take over in 100 years, even with the Jedi around


Jag and Jaina telling the Jedi would have achieved absolutely nothing. And look, they found out about it anyways.

The Jedi should not have even needed to be told about the Mandalorians, they should have expected it, and the Mandalorians are nothing to be afraid about anyways.

 

Wow, this is really good. I've been reading for 2 hrs straight and I'm on chapter 14.
Will I stay awake until I've finished it?

 

How Jedi kill Boba Fett?
How jedi kill the Jango Fett´s clones?.The Jedi are not invincible.Most of the Old Republic Jedi were killed by the clones
The jedi are idiots if they do not take seriously the Mandalorians. Now they have armor that resists Lightsabers
The Mandalorianos not exterminate the Jedi order, but can kill a lot of Jedi

 

Boba Fett did not kill any Jedi, the first reference to that came in REVELATION, and I'm taking it as an urban legend until I hear otherwise.

The clones were only able to kill Jedi because of surprise.

The Jedi already know that Daala has allied with the Mandalorians, and uses them as personal enforcers. Both Daala and the Mandalorians have a grudge against the Jedi. So why would the Jedi need to be told by Jag that Daala might use Mandalorians?

Even crazy Seff Hellin was talking about it in MILLENNIUM FALCON, asking Lando to prepare to make war droids that can fight Mandalorians similar to the YVH droids, to protect the Jedi. Han and Leia ALREADY knew about this.

 

Doku cloned Jango Fett because he killed many Jedi with their hands (Open seasons). Jango was killed by Mace Windu easily in part because his jetpack was damaged and remained vulnerable. The Mandalorians are dangerous.

But I think the anger of the Jedi against Jag is stupid.
Jaina heard the conversation between Dala and Boba Fett and the Jedi know that Mandalorianos and Daala are allies.
But Jedi are not invincible and have a weak leader and a psychotic illness.
Daala is a head of state of thousands of worlds with a regular army. The mandalorianos their elite troops. It is a dangerous enemy but Jag is the head of state of the IR. Jag puts his life in danger to help a Jedi but can not endanger the lives of citizens of the Empire for the Jedi. If there is war between the IR and GA Jedi assist the IR? Jedi to protect the citizen of the IR of the troops of the republic?

Jaina thinks in the safety of the galaxy while the Jedi believe in the safety of the order.

 

Doku cloned Jango Fett because he killed many Jedi with their hands (Open seasons).

No he didn't. Dooku chose Jango because Jango won the competition. Had things gone otherwise, Dooku would have chosen Montross, who wasn't even at Galidraan.

Besides Komari Vosa killed more Mandalorians than Jango killed Jedi, but she was not controllable.

What Dooku and Palpatine wanted was a tough guy who was easily controllable..

 

Viva Chapters Indigo! Got the book a buncha days early. Woot woot. I just finished it, and am trying to find the right word to describe it. So far, the winning candidate seems to be... crazy-awesome. Sound good? Crazy-awesome? OK then. Let's get to it.

What I liked best about Omen were the Aing-Tii scenes. They were the most fascinating out of the entire book, showing (or telling?) us more about the Monks without ruining their mysteriousness. But oh man... you sometimes forget how well Troy Denning does Star Wars until he writes a new book. The Mind Walkers kicked the crap out of the Aing-Tii in terms of wonderfully-written, fascinating, enthralling stuff. And this dominance extended to the other plotlines as well --- in Omen, the Sith scenes were just... not very noteworthy. I don't think I even included anything about them in my super-long rambling review/impressions post. It was the necessary origin story to introduce them into the series, but it was just sort of... meh. But here in Abyss, the Sith stuff was awesome. I actually like Vestara now --- Denning did really well with her character, and with the dynamics of the Sith Tribe in general. It was a fantastic plot that excellently paralleled the Luke & Ben plot, whereas in Omen, it was entirely separate from everything else, bringing back painful memories of reading the pointless Mandalorian half of Sacrifice.

As for the Coruscant plotline? Well... it was much better than the Omen one. There wasn't really any progression, though, which was a bit frustrating. It was the third straight book of young-Jedi-go-crazy, Daala is a bitch, and Jaina & Jag talk about their feelings. Denning did some great work with the Jaina-Jag relationship, and I guess the Mandos were kinda cool, but in the end, we're no farther along than we were two books ago. Some of the Coruscant stuff was even frustrating. I can understand Han being wary of Jag putting duty before anything else, but why the hell were he and Leia getting so kriffing worked up over Jaina not telling them about the Mandalorians? They were acting like Jag had just cooked and eaten Allana, and it was just like... "Really?"

Besides which, everyone should already know that Daala has been hiring Mandalorians, as per Millennium Falcon.

Well, OK, Han & Leia taking a spaz and the lack of any progression in the Coruscant plotline were actually my only gripes with the book. You know what was really cool about the Coruscant plotline? The inclusion of Javis Tyrr, Wynn Dorvan, Moff Lecersen, Bazel Warv, Nawara Ven... characters from the previous two books reappearing and continuing in the prominent roles that they logically should. What a concept! It's really really good to see that the planning team has learned their lesson from Legacy of the Force.

I can't believe I've been talking about the Coruscant plotline this long. Did you guys see how many awesome things happened in the Mind Walkers plot?! OK. Let's talk about them. I had no idea what to expect when Tadar'Ro told Luke and Ben that there were Mind Drinkers lurking inside the Maw --- a single-species cult as mysterious as the Aing-Tii, some badguys who they would spend most of the book fighting... what we got was something completely unexpected, but not in a bad way at all. Using the Force to transcend one's body... wow. Reading all of those scenes was some of the best SW I've ever read. The initial chapters of Luke & Ben exploring mini-Centerpoint was slightly reminiscent of the wonderful Teljkon Vagabond plot of The Black Fleet Crisis, and I loved how there was no unnecessary prelude to it. In the opening chapters, they were already in the Maw, and they were docked aboard Sinkhole very quickly. No time wasted. Loved it. Delicious hints of the Celestials and the Killiks... you just KNOW that there's so much more to come regarding that! And then when they actually started Mind-walking --- Abeloth is very, very fascinating right now.

 

^From your writeup of the book, Jeff, it looks like I need to read this book, stat.

I'm gonna order if from Amazon tonight, along with the Atlas.

 

Some further expansion on my impressions of this book.

Have you guys watched the six-part video of the Fate of the Jedi planning team talking at Comic-Con? One of the questions that Troy Denning is asked is something like, "Did you anticipate the can of worms that flow-walking would open?" He gives a very detailed answer, mentioning that when it was introduced in The Joiner King, it would have detracted from the narrative if he had written ten pages explaining in detail how it worked. Then in Legacy of the Force, it was taken in kind of odd directions, and he felt that it was necessary to include the scene in Invincible where Jacen gives a brief explanation to Tahiri as to why they can't bring Anakin back.

Well... that's something about Denning's writing that I really, really appreciate. That he intentionally leaves things vague. That he keeps his novels as novels, and doesn't make them sourcebooks. In Dark Nest, Jacen started employing all these cool new Force techniques, and although I was aching to find out which cult they were from and exactly how they worked, Denning left things open and mysterious. And you know what? That was a really good move. It kept a lot of mystery and fascination surrounding Jacen's six-year sojourn, and now, as Luke and Ben retrace it in Fate of the Jedi, there is still a world of possibilities open.

There's also the case of Jacen's "MINE!" vision. It reappeared in Tempest, and then we didn't get any resolution to it. Or did we? Remember the huuuuuuge thread last May where somebody figured out that in Invincible, Luke's eyes went crazy and he yelled "Jacen is my responsibility! MINE!" And then later in the book, Jacen stepped back into the light... those were two HUGE things, and what did Denning do? He kept them mysterious. Vague. Not overtly stated. He kept them as possibilities. And that is wonderful. What seems at first glance to be just another sentence is noticed by someone at these forums, and then turns out to be possibly be the most important part of the entire nine-book series.

That's what I like about Denning (well, one of many things). He leaves some things to the imagination. He leaves things up to us to decide. And the result is that he writes excellent novels. And that is why I was simply blown away by the scene in Abyss where Luke and Ben visit the Lake of Apparitions. They're visited by dead Jedi in a way that we've never seen dead Jedi appear before, and we, the reader, are left with more questions than answers. But the scene gains so, so much power by this simple exchange between the Skywalkers...

"Was that... was that a Force ghost?"

"I have no idea, Ben. But whatever it was, it was him."

As I said before... I completely believed everything I was reading. This was such, such a good scene. Which is why I was more than a little disappointed in Chapter 25 when Luke, Ben, and Rhondi Tremaine start analyzing what happened when they were Mind-walking, and Tremaine goes into... somewhat detailed explanation on the Lake of Apparitions. Nothing is really resolved, but even so... I would have preferred for that exchange not to have happened. If it had been kept even more vague.

But whatevs. Denning did such a fantastic job writing about Mind-walking. Abeloth was lurking beyond the shadows, and that is something that I can't wait to find out more about. Are we done with the Mind-Walkers? Are Luke and Ben simply going to go on to Dathomir and forget about them? Absolutely not. Abeloth was lurking beyond the shadows, and she, she is the evil that is infecting the Jedi Knights with Force Psychosis, the evil that used Lady Rhea's Sith expedition as playtoys and is luring Sith away from the Tribe, and she, she was lurking beyond the shadows. Oh yes, we have plenty more to learn about the Mind-Walkers and Abeloth.

Is it unfortunate that Lady Rhea, Ahri, and Xal are all dead? Well... no. They had an interesting story in this book, but it's clear that Vestara is the s

 

*Jedi Mind Trick* You want to tell me what Ben thinks on the second to last page

Now I am flipping to that as soon as I get the book-I've been spoiler saturated, and that hadn't been mentioned-so I am curious