The Official Fate of the Jedi: Vortex Discussion Thread

Oh, I don't disagree that this does indeed seem to be where the authors are heading. But it irritates me to no end that apparently LotF was so badly received by Jacen fans (and others!) that they're now, it seems, writing FotJ to retcon Jacen into a "hero" and Luke into the "bad guy" who caused Jacen to become a Sith. I find that to be a TERRIBLE decision! Not only is it unfair to Luke's character and damages and degrades him yet AGAIN, but this whole thing truly doesn't hold up logically when you really think things through.

Not "a hero", "an hero". The two are two separate things. And we can all agree that Jacen is an hero.

As I keep saying, HOW is it even possible for a Force user to change the future anyway??? How could Jacen know that by becoming a Sith Lord himself, he would take Luke's place as a Sith, and Luke *wouldn't* become a Sith? Doesn't it seem more logical to assume that BOTH of them would be Sith than that Jacen would take Luke's place? And if a Jedi *Could* change the future, why not do something to keep Anakin Solo or Mara from dying?

Wait, Jacen changing the future to prevent Anakin from dying? Anakin, who is already dead? Um, what?

But again, HOW is it possible for a Jedi to physically put himself into another Jedi's place? I can understand how a Jedi can manipulate another Jedi's visions, but that's not really changing the reality. It's only an illusion. Luke didn't change anything by manipulating Jacen's visions. Jacen only thought he saw what he saw. But if Jacen actually changed the future and took Luke's place, this would open up a whole new can of worms. We might be having Jedi changing all kinds of things from now on.... Nothing would be "written in stone". The past, the future, anything might be changed.

Greedo might even shoot first. I don't really consider there to be any risk of changing the past. Considering, you know, it already happened, and flow-walking doesn't work that way.

I would indeed be upset. Why is LUKE always the one that "needs" to be "saved" from the dark side? Luke is NOT a bad person. Luke isn't one who craves power or influence or prestige. All he really wants is to do what he can to help protect the galaxy. He's now supposed to be a Jedi Grand Master. He has managed to avoid temptations before, even as a brand new, young Jedi. YOu would think that Luke would now have the strength of character; the fortitude; and the control to avoid the dark side without needing to be helped.

That was before George rewrote Anakin to be doing everything for others. The dark side comes in many forms.

I completely agree. That's another reason that this whole thing makes no sense. If Jacen really *did* see Luke as the dark man on the throne, killing him would have ensured that Luke never got to that throne. And I don't think Jacen would have needed to go Sith to do it either.

And how about Jacen did everything to keep from killing Luke. At first, anyway. Of course, Sith tend to suffer motive decay.

Besides, it was Luke who saw the visions of the "dark Man". And he became a reality after Jacen killed Nelani. Luke told Mara at that point, "He exists". Yet, Luke didn't even know that Jacen had killed Nelani.

Well, Leia saw the first vision of the dark man. God knows what's in Denning's mind, though.

 

If you liked the book, cool, but realize that my intense dislike of it is based on the finished product, not on any preconceived notion of its quality. As Matteus said, we shouldn't be sheep --- if I think that a book is crap, I'm going to say so.

i believe you. i guess i am not as critical. if i was a writer myself, maybe i would be. i enjoy most star wars novels. but there are some i do dislike

about luke.... why is he always focused on with the dark side???? is it because anakin is his dad?? Luke is most likely the greatest light side jedi in history in power as well as compassion and strength to stay in the light. yes, he had as bad mistsep when his wife was murdered, but it's over now.

 

KnightDawg : We've never seen a powerful human that was created by the Force itself, so why wouldn't his/her offspring have the same traits?

So are you saying that every person is just like his mother/father? That because one's father is a thief or killer, it means that the child will be a thief of killer??? I strongly believe that every person makes his/her own choices and isn't born "wired" toward evil or toward good. People don't inherit "good" genes or "bad" genes. Each person has the free will to choose right or wrong. Just because Luke's father made terrible choices and became a Sith doesn't mean that Luke, Leia, or their offspring will make the same wrong choices and become Sith.

I agree with Jedi Ben. I think that the idea that if Anakin was created by Plagueis then it means that he and all of his descendants are forever doomed to fall to the dark side, is a terrible one. This *does* undercut one of the central themes of SW , that you are what you do and how you do it, rather than where you came from or who your parents were. Otherwise, the Skywalkers and Solos might as well forget about fighting darkside temptations, because they're doomed to Sithdom anyway. Might as well kill off the entire clan because they're certain to be a menace to society, right?







Darth-Ghost : Leia also comes close to the dark side numerous times.

But she gets a free pass. Her dark side acts aren't acknowledged as such.


No, he's the strong one who always resists the dark side in the end, even if it sometimes means help from the love of others.

Well, he didn't when he committed the vengeance killing...


And as George Lucas has said, the dark side is really just a metaphor for despair/depression.

Really???? When did he say that? I'm not sure that I "buy" that. I see the dark side as more evil. Someone can be in a state of despair/depression and not commit evil acts like murder, so I wouldn't consider that person to be a "darksider". I would say that the dark side should involve doing really evil, wrong things.

I don't think that's what's being suggested in the books, though it is a fan theory.

Then what *do* you think is being suggested in the books, if you don't think that they're hinting that Jacen chose to become a Sith Lord/dark man to keep Luke from becoming one? In other words, taking Luke's place as a Sith/Dark man?


It is a retcon, but it won't be that bad, besides Jacen was always secretive and careful to guard his own thoughts, even to keep Allana from his mind during the discussions with Lumiya. It's possible it was just so buried deep within him that it wouldn't show up in his conscious thoughts too much.

Jacen even admitted outloud that he had killed Mara, so he wasn't that secretive. The reader was privy to all of his thoughts and his attempts to justify his choices, decisions, plans TO himself. I don't think that explanation works all that well. Plus, Lumiya died in Sacrifice, and we still didn't see Jacen thinking about keeping Luke from becoming a Sith. He had already long ago gotten to the point where he wanted Luke dead... not because he feared that Luke would fall, but because Luke might interfere with his plans.


He could have interpreted those visions as being that he kills Luke because Luke has already become the Dark Man on Throne,

But why would those kills happen only if Nelani was allowed to live???? To me, the reason the two fought was because Nelani would have blabbed to Luke about Lumiya if she had lived, and either Luke would have confronted Lumiya and Jacen would have interferred and killed Luke so Luke wouldn't kill Lumiya, (thus keeping Jacen from learning Sith knowledge), or Luke would have gone to confront Jacen about his willingness to learn from Lumiya , and again, Jacen would have fought and killed Luke. Even Jacen should have known that it would have been a dark Jacen facing a Light Luke, because it was Jacen who had already decided to learn abou

 

I think theories are being tossed about that are all impossible to prove.

Did Jacen do what Jacen did becasue he thought Luke would fall? So what if he did, it doesn't mean Luke was going to fall. Thats impossible to prove.

The most powerful spoonbenders in the history of the Force have all been unable to tell what the future will be, from Yoda to Palpatine to Luke himself.

Now someone can choose to think that the authors are somehow trying to present this, but to me there is no support for it as anything but a theory. If you choose to believe this because the authors weave the story in such a way thats up to you.

I personally believe there is nothing in Star Wars canon that can prove this as fact. Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever and still can't see the future with any accuracy. Abeloth is a two trick pony who can't be trusted with your milk money. Visions of the dead in pools present no credibilty.

What its going to come down to is what each of us believes as a reader.

 

Robimus : I think theories are being tossed about that are all impossible to prove.

Did Jacen do what Jacen did becasue he thought Luke would fall? So what if he did, it doesn't mean Luke was going to fall. Thats impossible to prove.

The most powerful spoonbenders in the history of the Force have all been unable to tell what the future will be, from Yoda to Palpatine to Luke himself.

Now someone can choose to think that the authors are somehow trying to present this, but to me there is no support for it as anything but a theory. If you choose to believe this because the authors weave the story in such a way thats up to you.

I personally believe there is nothing in Star Wars canon that can prove this as fact. Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever and still can't see the future with any accuracy. Abeloth is a two trick pony who can't be trusted with your milk money. Visions of the dead in pools present no credibilty.

What its going to come down to is what each of us believes as a reader.


Ahhh!!! The voice of reason!!!! Thanks, Rob! That was a VERY refreshing post, and it puts things into perspective. As you said, no matter what the authors may be going for here, it doesn't mean it's absolutely certain that the future would have gone a certain way without Jacen's "intervention". There is *no* proof. You've actually made me feel much better about this. I will still hate it if the authors do try to make it seem as though Jacen "saved" Luke from Sithdom and the galaxy from "Luke's dark reign", because I know most posters will "buy into" it, even knowing that visions are not always accurate or set in stone. There are many Jacen apologists who would like to see Jacen celebrated as a hero at Luke's expense. But *I* don't have to accept it because as you said, there is *no* proof that Luke would have fallen even if Jacen believed it. Visions are never an exact or "precise" science. If even Yoda, Luke, and Palpatine can't "see" the future with pinpoint accuracy, why should Jacen have been able to do it?

And Abeloth can make up any "tale" she chooses. Doesn't mean it's true.

 

I agree with Jedi Ben. I think that the idea that if Anakin was created by Plagueis then it means that he and all of his descendants are forever doomed to fall to the dark side, is a terrible one. This *does* undercut one of the central themes of SW , that you are what you do and how you do it, rather than where you came from or who your parents were. Otherwise, the Skywalkers and Solos might as well forget about fighting darkside temptations, because they're doomed to Sithdom anyway. Might as well kill off the entire clan because they're certain to be a menace to society, right?

Except that the theme is subverted already. Anakin is redeemed. Darth Cuckoodus is a nice double subversion. He looks redeemed just before he died, but he's not.

Really???? When did he say that? I'm not sure that I "buy" that. I see the dark side as more evil. Someone can be in a state of despair/depression and not commit evil acts like murder, so I wouldn't consider that person to be a "darksider". I would say that the dark side should involve doing really evil, wrong things.

The dark side strikes me as a bit of a mood disorder. It takes someone's passions and turns them against them. But then we have Palpatine, possibly the embodiment of the dark side, but he's not that emotional at all. In fact, he's a sociopath.

But why would those kills happen only if Nelani was allowed to live???? To me, the reason the two fought was because Nelani would have blabbed to Luke about Lumiya if she had lived, and either Luke would have confronted Lumiya and Jacen would have interferred and killed Luke so Luke wouldn't kill Lumiya, (thus keeping Jacen from learning Sith knowledge), or Luke would have gone to confront Jacen about his willingness to learn from Lumiya , and again, Jacen would have fought and killed Luke. Even Jacen should have known that it would have been a dark Jacen facing a Light Luke, because it was Jacen who had already decided to learn about the Sith knowledge and skills even before he had his visions. There are no Lightside Sith, you know.

Jennsaarai?

Many people seem to think of Luke as a villain, a darksider in DE, for example, even though Luke didn't do anything really evil. Some still insist that he "fell. Luke was certainly written as dark when he committed the vengeance killing. He made the exact same choice that his father made when he killed the Tuskins for revenge. That's acting like a villain; not a hero. Some say Luke was doing evil when he manipulated Jacen's visions in Invincible. In Backlash, Luke killed the Nightsisters by lobbing rocks at them. Those are some examples of Luke being written more like a villain than a hero.

In Backlash, it was in the defense of others, though. Can't say as much about Luke working for the Empire. (And this is important in the Tahiri thread: Luke committed treason in Dark Empire.) I think it's because dark side Luke is an awesome concept, but difficult to work with, and Dark Empire is made of fail in this regard. It is. Luke wouldn't get "depressed". He would let his caring for his friends turn into anger, and that anger would be his road to the dark side. Of course, nobody woh writes dark Luke seems to understand this.

 

Just read this and all I have to say is, "Did the character of Kenth Hamner kick Troy Denning's dog?"

Some good parts, but I keep finding my favorite people in his book(s) to be too cartoonish in their character aspects and downright self-righteous (as well as out of character) in some places.... I mean the Kenth part was so contrived I found myself laughing out loud. And no way the Jedi would turn on themselves like that... they all read like a band of untrained, impatient, unwise padawans rather than Masters. Ugh. Glad I bought this on the kindle. I think I'm done.

 

I disagree about the future always being in motion. Sure, in-universe, it is. But we know it isn't, because if they're trying not to tie Dark Horse's hands (hooves?) then we have to arrive at that destination someday. The future is not always in motion.

As for the Dark Man vision - I think they said in Abyss that the Dark Man on the Throne of Balance was a man in dark armor on a golden throne? I think I've seen something similar somewhere.
But hey, that's me and my deviant way of thinking. I don't understand why everybody hisses and spits over it being Luke or Jacen or Ben when there's another decent explanation, not involving changing the Dark Man in the vision, but delaying or preventing his rise to ensure his fall.

And why are we still blacking out spoilers? Isn't the 30 day period over yet?

 

The Dark Man prophecy also makes mention of a number of dark side adepts surrounding the golden throne, wearing dark robes (which would also appear to support the theory that it is Krayt and his One Sith), but I think the reason everyone keeps coming back to saying, "It's Ben!" "No! It's Luke!" is because Denning keeps hinting at it in his books. If it was Krayt, then why does Jacen seem to become so personally involved in it, and why does Luke himself (and Jacen) keep hinting at the fact that it might have been Ben or Luke (they went back and forth like this in ABYSS). Luke seemed to resolve himself to the fact that it was someone close to him, as did Jacen, when he seemed to be mocking Luke from the Lake of Apparitions because Luke didn't appear to know who it was - or he did know who it was, and Jacen was just acting smug because he prevented it by taking their place.

 

ChildOfWinds,


But she gets a free pass. Her dark side acts aren't acknowledged as such.

I wouldn't say a free pass, there's just not as much emphasis on Leia being a Force-user at all, which I think is one of the greatest missed opportunities of the entire EU.


Well, he didn't when he committed the vengeance killing...

He didn't fall to the dark side, though.


Really???? When did he say that? I'm not sure that I "buy" that. I see the dark side as more evil. Someone can be in a state of despair/depression and not commit evil acts like murder, so I wouldn't consider that person to be a "darksider". I would say that the dark side should involve doing really evil, wrong things.

I forget where he said that, but it does make sense. Going to the dark side doesn't necessarily mean that you become evil, it just means that you give up on the light, give up on the good things in life. But being without hope makes one much more likely to commit evil acts... they think there's no hope in the future or goodness in the world, so why not break all the rules of morality since it doesn't matter in the end anyways? Think of Anakin's despair about Shmi "I don't have a choice," about him as Vader talking to Luke about how "it's too late for me, son," about Luke's struggle in Dark Empire when he fears and depairs there might not be a way to kill Palpatine for good, about Jacen reflecting in Invincible that he turned to the dark side because he thought nothing he did or could do as a Jedi really mattered in the end, about Luke in Shadows of Mindor struggling against the Dark and knowing of the end of the universe, about one of the first Dark Jedi called Xoxaan teaching Krayt that despair is the foundation and origin and way of the Sith, of Lumiya despairing to Luke that she took an oath and that's all she was left with in the end, etc. The dark side is a metaphor for despair, while the good guys have always been about Hope and finding the good in each other.


Then what *do* you think is being suggested in the books, if you don't think that they're hinting that Jacen chose to become a Sith Lord/dark man to keep Luke from becoming one? In other words, taking Luke's place as a Sith/Dark man?

Jacen seems to have become a Sith to stop Luke from becoming the Dark Man (or at least that's what Jacen thought), but I don't think he replaced Luke AS the Dark Man on the Throne.


Jacen even admitted outloud that he had killed Mara, so he wasn't that secretive. The reader was privy to all of his thoughts and his attempts to justify his choices, decisions, plans TO himself. I don't think that explanation works all that well. Plus, Lumiya died in Sacrifice, and we still didn't see Jacen thinking about keeping Luke from becoming a Sith. He had already long ago gotten to the point where he wanted Luke dead... not because he feared that Luke would fall, but because Luke might interfere with his plans.

No, we aren't. Jacen talks about how he stops himself from thinking about certain things around Lumiya, which is why the book doesn't even show him thinking about Allana during the conversation with Lumiya in Betrayal. Jacen may have admitted to killing Mara, but it doesn't seem like he really cared at that point, and was becoming a bit unhinged. As for later seeming to want Luke did, Jacen even admits in Invincible that he let the dark side corrupt him and make him forget his true purpose for why he became a Sith.


But why would those kills happen only if Nelani was allowed to live???? To me, the reason the two fought was because Nelani would have blabbed to Luke about Lumiya if she had lived, and either Luke would have confronted Lumiya and Jacen would have interferred and killed Luke so Luke wouldn't kill Lumiya, (thus keeping Jacen from learning Sith knowledge), or Luke would have gone to confront Jacen about his willingness to learn from Lumiya , and again, Jacen would have fought and killed Luke. Even Jacen should have known that it would have been a dark Jacen facing a L

 

To me, Jacen had to kill Nelani because he needed to keep his secret of studying with a Sith. Though we should learn by now, if you think you HAVE to keep a secret from EVERYONE you know and love, chances are it is not for something good. If you think that you alone are the only person who knows best, to the point where you need to lie to everyone...perhaps you might be wrong

Kenth is one example of that as well.
Jacen from LotF appears to be also, though that may change in the future. Which, if it does, will show just how poor the planning was for these authors. Why kill off Jacen only to prove him right years later? They should have just defeated him, and sent him into exile or something, so later on, if we are just building things up to now change everything we say 15 books in the past, at least we get a fully redeemed Jacen to work with in the future. If they now end up showing him to be right, all we get is a still dead Jacen to go along with all the still living charactors who were both wrong, and idiots for killing their son/nephew/brother/fellow Jedi. I am not sure how that helps the future story at all

 

I don't get it. Luke fans are complaining about this now when they should of complained about the very possibility Jacen had a valid point from the start and that Luke would be in a position where he was on the other side of the equation. It's like they were in denial and would of rather played Jacen off as a fool instead of tackling the difficult philosophical thoughts of the 'just maybe....'.

Reality of it is that the character of Luke isn't omniscient. He knew what he knew and Jacen knew what Jacen knew. I don't really see either of them as the hero or villain, more like 2 chess pieces in a game.

Also it has to be realized the term heroic is strictly in the eye of the beholder.

 

Jacen's charactor isnt omniscient either and should not be portrayed as such, which is the point being made. It goes against what we know of the Force

I also wish Jacen would have lived, so we could continue to have the 2 chess pieces in play. Would make for a much more interesting story than being stuck with Jacen dead and gone

Actually, I wish Jacen would have become the 1st new Emperor and formed the Imperial Knights. That way they could really be cousins of the Jedi philosophy, yet be something different. Having him form a "rival" force user group would fall in nicely with his force journey, all his different force user group knowledge, differing philosophies, etc. Much more so than Jaina splitting off to form the IK, if that is indeed how it ends up happening.

 

Was Jacen shown to be omniscient? That's not the impression I got. I always felt he was largely going with stuff on the fly. There's a difference between a character unlocking some information other characters aren't privy to and having an all encompassing well of knowledge.

 

Sinrebirth If Jacen can bury thoughts of his daughter for the whole of Betrayal... then I have no issues with him burying the Throne of Balance.

But burying them for NINE books? And when he was rambling and extremely talkative in his thoughts to himself over the course of that series? Sorry, but it doesn't work for me.

Plus, this would also take in the DN series as well, wouldn't it, as he came back from his five year journey right during that series? And he was encouraging Luke to use his anger and his grief to make himself more powerful when he faced Raynor and Lomi Plo. If Jacen was worried about Luke becoming the dark man on the throne, don't you think he would have wanted to DISCOURAGE Luke from using darkside emotions to fuel his powers?

 

Nicely put. I'd forgotten to take the DNT into the equation, but you're right- that makes it even MORE ridiculous that the original Dark Man'd be Luke.

 

there's such a simple way to resolve this all, and thats to just give us a book or couple of books of Jacen during his journey

I doubt we will ever get that though, I think its going to be tied into FotJ and others

 

You can take DNT or early LOTF and point to what you think are holes but it just sounds like further denial to accept what is to me.

My interpretation was he did not see the importance of Alanna until Invincible. I'm not sure where he saw Luke on the throne but I think good chance it happened in Betrayal. Maybe Tempest. Maybe it was a gradual realization through identifying symbols from his visions. Maybe never. Does it really matter? I don't see why every detail has to be explored.

 

wasnt the only place where you see someone on the throne was where Luke and Ben traveled to, and where Jacen was at one point during his journey?

I didnt think it was something you can just look at whenever you wanted to, meaning when Jacen saw someone on the throne, it was prior to DN and LotF


So he saw something once, and wasnt sure it had changed until Luke told him about it during FotJ

 

I think Leia had a vision of Allana in ABYSS (same time as Luke was Mind-walking), and a vision of the Dark Man in TATOOINE GHOST (which people at the time thought was a vision of Luke in DE, or perhaps of Jacen's then only potential future fall since Leia's afraid to have kids). Jacen also had a weird vision in either TEMPEST or EXILE.

 

ah i see

I dont really remember the details as its been a while since i read LotF, but does it appear that those visions were meant to be viewing the throne of balance (or whatever it was called in the pool)?

I was thinking the first time we learn of the throne of balance stuff was in FotJ when Luke sees it and then learns Jacen also saw something as well. I took it as being something different than a force vision.