The *Official* OT changes/SEs/ Archival discussion thread.

And what about those supposed new scenes that were mentioned before? Or is it all just added and cleaned up effects shots?

 

It's interesting that Scribner brings up the Sistine Chapel. Back in the early 90's art historians and critics were up in arms when the Vatican decided to have the ceiling cleaned of all the soot and dust from a couple hundred years of candles and incense. Once all that crap was stripped away, the ceiling looked... different. It probably look very close to the way it did when Michaelangelo finished it, but to modern eyes it looked wrong. People had become accustomed to the dirt - some saying it was intentional. I bring this up top point out that art is not permanent. Even the pyramids will eventually turn to dust. And even if you restore the art to the way it originally was, it still might not make people happy. A lot of people want to preserve art in some sort of pristine, unchanging state that is, frankly, impossible to achieve. Art changes and WE change. Many Star Wars "purists" argue that they want the OT preserved because THAT is the film they fell in love with. But the film is not the memory -- the MEMORY is the memory. No matter how perfect the preservation, no matter how pristine the copy -- you will NEVER completely relive that moment from your childhood. Lucas is correct when he points out that there are multiple versions of the original films. ANH had at least three separate prints during its first summer of release in 1977 alone. Then they added the "Episode IV" subtitle, then they did a THX print, then they did the SE -- which version is the one that conforms to YOUR perfect childhood memory? Should they ALL be released just to make sure that EVERYONE is happy? In the end, it all comes down to perception.

 

And what about those supposed new scenes that were mentioned before? Or is it all just added and cleaned up effects shots?

Mostly cleaned up shots. No new major scenes like the Jabba ANH sequence, as far as I know. Last I heard, Ian is being added to Empire.

 

Well that kinda sucks. Can you prove any of this?

 

Please, no more.

 

What? I want to find out the truth.

 

Can you prove any of this?

You'll know on Tuesday -- if that's when the announcement is made.

 

But Lucas never once forced anyone to buy a ticket, a poster, a model, a toy or a video. Never. We all chose to do it over and over and over again. If you think Lucas is obligated to you because of your choices, think again. Some people are complaining that Lucas isn't giving them a choice. Lucas has always given you a choice. You can buy his products - or not.

Well said.

But the film is not the memory -- the MEMORY is the memory.

Good point.

which version is the one that conforms to YOUR perfect childhood memory? Should they ALL be released just to make sure that EVERYONE is happy?

Another good point.

 

And memories are not forever. In fact, they can be tainted by repeated misrepresentations.

So everyone was wrong for screaming bloody murder when Ted Turner colorized all those classic films of yesteryear? I mean, he was just improving them for today's audiences. He didn't edit the movies. They were still there. Does it matter? Everyone could still watch them. Who cares that they didn't match the original versions everyone fell in love with. You're right. Everyone can do anything they like with any product because in the end it doesn't matter what people like, only what we can tell them to like.

L8r

 

Who cares if the Twin Towers were destroyed?

We still have the memories, right?

 

Wow. 9/11 is... very not analogous to a set of films, especially for someone who was close to it.

The most obvious difference is people's lives, and their ability to live and affect others in this world, can be lost forever, whereas a work of art cannot. You could argue, for example, that a photo of a great painting doesn't do it justice - and I agree. However, it's still a decent record of what existed in the original.

The next most obvious difference is Lucas isn't going into your house and destroying your old VHS tapes and laserdiscs. Nothing stops you from preserving what you already own.

If you're really a snob about art, you could say art can only be experienced in one specific way to be appreciated and understood in the way the artist wanted. From that point of view, the only correct way to watch ANH is in a theater in 1977. By watching the O-OT at home on a tiny TV screen, you're not seeing the "correct" version of the O-OT.

I think what I'm trying to say is you guys have a point, but some of this rhetoric about the malicious and destructive nature of the act Lucas is committing is overblown.

 

Wow. 9/11 is... very not analogous to a set of films, especially for someone who was close to it. [b/]

In the context I am using it, it IS the same thing, only on a much larger scale. You can't argue with that.

 

I can't argue with that? I thought I did, in the couple of paragraphs following the one you quoted.

 

It's the MEMORIES that can never be taken away, right?

I'm not comparing a movie to a film, I meant the whole memory issue.
Sorry

 

My .02:

While the redone sfx were a nice touch, and some of the added scenes good, there were a lot that fell flat. Case in point: Greedo shooting first.

When the DVDs come out, I hoper and pray that he will release both versions on the discs. They certainly can cram both into one disc, plus have room for commentary and little extras. I know that SW is Lucas's work, but it'd be nice if he recalled the people that got him there: us, the people that went to the mvoies, bought the tapes, read the books, play the games, etc. Perhaps I am a bit selfish, but I don't think I'm asking all that much by wanting both versions on the discs.

 

From that point of view, the only correct way to watch ANH is in a theater in 1977. By watching the O-OT at home on a tiny TV screen, you're not seeing the "correct" version of the O-OT.

Good point, Dark Lady Mara. Sneaky, but good.

I think what I'm trying to say is you guys have a point, but some of this rhetoric about the malicious and destructive nature of the act Lucas is committing is overblown.

Thank you.

 

I have a question. Why would George Lucas be willing to release his movies in pan and scan if he feels so strongly that his ultimate vision of the films (and no other including the original versions) be maintained?

 

And memories are not forever. In fact, they can be tainted by repeated misrepresentations.

Speaking of misrepresentations, I remember seeing "Star Wars" in 1977. It didn't say "Episode IV A New Hope" -- it was just "Star Wars." I happened to see the dolby stereo mix print, so during my first screening I remember hearing the stormtrooper say "Close the blast doors!" and Threepio give a speech about the tractor beam. Those are MY memories. Flashforward to 1982 and the first video release of the film. Now it says "Episode IV" and the stormtrooper doesn't say anything. Neither does Threepio. For 15 years, THAT's the version we got. And for millions of fans THAT is their first memory of Star Wars.

Then the SE comes out. Suddenly "Close the blast doors" is back in. So is Threepio's line. Everyone is pleased as punch that those lines have been "restored," right? Wrong. Millions of fanboys cry out that those lines "sound wrong." "They weren't in the originals" they cried. Yes, they were, but they don't remember them. The version I remember as the "original" is not the same one they remember.

So which version deserves to be released - the one that conforms to MY memories or YOURS? My daughter has only seen the SE. To her THAT is the original. When I show her the uncut OT, she thinks the movie is broken somehow. Shouldn't Lucas release the 1997 SE version too? By my count, there are six versions of ANH, five of Empire and four of Jedi. Should they ALL be put out on DVD? We could have a 13 disc set! If not, which version should get the axe? I sure hope it's not the one I remember and cherish, because boy there'll be hell to pay!

I mean, if preserving our memories is the goal, Lucas should be forced to release a DVD version in pan and scan with faded colors and VHS quality resolution - because THAT's the version that introduced millions of fans to Star Wars.

If someone has to make the call about which version is the "official" version, then I say it should be Lucas. This isn't the same situation as colorization - which wasn't done by the original filmmakers, but by businessmen decades after the fact. Lucas is the original artist (and don't suggest Kershner or Marquard have a say because they were artists for hire who never had final cut to begin with. Besides, Marquand is dead.)

Again, all that being said, I do think Lucas has an obligation to history to preserve the original versions. Must he release them on DVD? No. Should he? Yes. Will I be disappointed if he doesn't? No.

 

I hope Lucas, in 20 years, adds in over 10 minutes of new footage and changes to the prequels (erasing a lot of the original effects work and maybe even marring some of what originally was) and then plainly say that the original versions of TPM/AOTC/EP3 "don't exist" any more to him.

Then a lot of the people who are supporting Lucas' decision now will be singing a different tune.

If not, then I must admit you people sure "adapt" more easily to changes then I.

 

If someone has to make the call about which version is the "official" version, then I say it should be Lucas.

DarthToeJam, you continue to make good post on this subject. Post that make sense and insult no one.

 

"I have a question. Why would George Lucas be willing to release his movies in pan and scan if he feels so strongly that his ultimate vision of the films (and no other including the original versions) be maintained? "


It isn't so much that he 'allowed' them to be released in this horrible format. He sort of 'had to'. Pan-n-scan (more so then, than now) is a necessary evil. There are some director's, however, who have ensured (even sued!) to keep their films in their pure format.

 

I hope Lucas, in 20 years, adds in over 10 minutes of new footage and changes to the prequels (erasing a lot of the original effects work and maybe even marring some of what originally was) and then plainly say that the original versions of TPM/AOTC/EP3 "don't exist" any more to him.

If they're changed for the better and it is Lucas doing the changes, I have no problem with it. Lucas already HAS altered both TPM and AOTC for their DVD release and he plans to replace Yoda in TPM with the digital one. So we won't have to wait 20 years.

DarthToeJam, you continue to make good post on this subject. Post that make sense and insult no one

Believe me, I have my critics. But thanks!

There are other director's, however, who have ensured (even sued!) to keep their films in their pure format.

The only "pure" format would be the original: film stock projected on a screen. Letterboxing only approximates the original aspect ratio. Any time a film is transfered to video, you are getting away from the "original version" and start making compromises. You lose resolution, scale, quality, color, etc. That's why Lucas created THX - to try to improve and standardize the quality of movie presentation. But it will never be the same as the original.

 

^^^True, but they try to keep it as close as they can.

It's different when you intentionally change it.

 

i haven't seen anybody mention the substition of hayden at the end of Jedi (when luke takes off the mask) I read this on "THEDIGITALBITS.COM". Anybody else hear anything regarding this? I guess it's already been done and will be on the archive version.

 

My sources say no Hayden in ROTJ, but things could change between now and November. DigitalBits got that information from that list of changes floating around the web. The list is a fan list -- its not real.