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Lit The One Canon

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth , Aug 18, 2015.

  1. Golbolco

    Golbolco Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 20, 2016
    I recently reread Rebel Dawn to try and work this out, and frankly the battles of Toprawa and Scarif are so similar that I’m inclined to believe that they are the same planet under two different names.
     
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  2. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    Heck, in the American Civil War, both the Union and Confederacy had different names for a couple of the same battles. The Battle of Bull Run was also known as the Battle of Manassas.
     
  3. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Honestly, the issue with that is that while the battle themselves are similar, the planets necessarily aren't. Scarif was entirely covered by a planetary shield, while Toprawa in both Legends and Canon was settled. In Legends, the Empire punished Toprawa after the battle by destroying its cities and thrusting the planet into poverty. In Canon, it was the homeworld of Sila Kott and a flight academy was built on Toprawa in her honor after her death. So there was a civilian population on Toprawa, while there wasn't one on Scarif.
     
  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I’ve always been inclined to say that the Alliance had multiple missions to capture the Death Star plans running because a) the Empire is unlikely to keep them all in one place b) if they do it’s going to be a fortress world.

    So the Alliance has a very methodical set of missions to Toprawa, to Danuta, and so on, and then along comes Jyn, blows all the delicate planning out of the water, and leads the fleet to Scarif. The Tantive IV flees Scarif and collects all the plans that are stolen before heading to Tatooine.
     
  5. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Doesn't that potentially create problems though? The Battle of Scarif had a massive loss of life, so if those other more delicately planned missions was already going on... was it still necessary?
     
  6. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    It becomes less necessary, potentially, but I treat Scarif as the only place with a full set. Which is why Vader, Tarkin and the Death Star turn up.

    Legends had the other sources be part plans, which by implication means the Rebels don't know which parts until they capture them, I suppose.
     
  7. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    But that also makes the other missions less necessary, which means a lot more rebels dying for nothing. It might unintentionally make Jyn unsympathetic, since even without her "heroics" the Rebel Alliance may have still ended up with a full set of plans just not right away and at a smaller cost.
     
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  8. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I can see that, but it doesn't take too much to take it that the Legends set wasn't complete, and the Scarif mission is instead elevated for its importance. But its in hindsight.

    Jyn lead an unsanctioned mission, at the end of the day - she wasn't part of Command. She just went, and people followed, by sheer inspiration.

    It's a more organic response.
     
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  9. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    It's also possible that the Rebels strike to capture the different parts of the plans as a means of diverting Imperial ships away from Scarif. That's why there are only two Imperial-class Star Destroyers at Scarif, where normally there would be more.
     
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  10. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    I don't buy that. All of the attempts would have had to have happened close together and there was no shortage of worlds for Imperial ships to be drawn from, especially since I think the only other strike that would have likely justified a larger Navy presence would have been at Toprawa. The justification for why Scarif only had two Star Destroyers is because of complacency, which was another reason Tarkin had the Death Star fire on the planet... to punish its garrison for its failure.
     
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  11. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 24, 2013
    I think Kyle Katarns story and continuity problems with Rianna Saren may actually be helping here. How the Death Star novels illfated retcon though works is still a mystery, the one about a Death Star librarian beaming the plans off the death star to the various sites unrelated to research there.

    Scarif is the main prize and the full set of plans, but the most guarded one too. Other sites may have partial plans, requiring only individual assets and agents whereas Scarif requires a fleet at minimum. The thing is, the Rebel Alliance was in disarray as of Rogue One and the more they learned about the Death Star the more worried they got. The partial plans secured by Kyle himself only confirmed the worst which Bail had already seen firsthand in TFU. But he had no hard proof until Kyle came back with the first set of plans, outdated as they may be or unfinished rather. So the Rebels set up a working group to figure out the missing parts and how to acquire them and Kyle and Rebels had to recruit others like Rianna Saren for such tasks.
    One illfated attempt was the Lucrehulc mission that lost them 1000 X-Wings over Despraye when they faced the Death Star for the first time in combat trying to take it without knowing its weaknesses.

    While all this was kept from Jyn obviously, she went Rogue and they had to accellerate plans and Raddus sent the fleet after her in a rush. Jyn had the best shot still though and Kyles team and operatives continued in paralell, plus some other lucky coincidences of plan bits falling into rebel hands that were not preplanned.

    Now the Death Star librarians sending the plans off the DS1 itself, well I consider this not retconning the entire missions but rather adding to it. He did not know that the plans had been already acquired by some Rebel agents, and his sent material may be updates compared to what Rebels took earlier, hence some double missions to retrieve plans again to get the update, like on Danuta with Rianna Saren who most likely collected the updated bits and not the original go around that Kyle and other Rebel Agents collected!
     
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  12. Golbolco

    Golbolco Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 20, 2016
    I see what you're saying, but Rebel Dawn explicitly describes Toprawa as a "restricted world," and so I'm not sure how much of its civilian population was elaborated on in sources before or after that novel. My suggestion would be that a native population might have existed, but that most settlements were Imperial garrisons and home to officers, technicians, and scientists plus their families. Sila Kott's flight academy would have been built after the New Republic recaptured the planet, which I think in Legends was after the Thrawn campaign.

    It's also worth noting that Scarif had a cover story: it was a planet rich with heavy metals that were supposedly being transported to shipyards, but this was not really the case. Any native settlements to a combined Toprawa-Scarif could have been invented or partially based on the story sold to the public that the world was a high-priority, high-resources world.

    I agree that the Alliance was slowly unraveling the conspiracy of the Death Star with all the "plans" they stole. I like the idea that when the events of TFU and Battlefront II occur, the Alliance thinks they're just escaping a work-in-progress Worldcraft like the one Hethrir used. Maybe Rianna Saren and Kyle Katarn actually stole financial plans showing how many shell companies and false investors were involved in covering up where the necessary trillions of tons of resources were going, and the librarian on the Death Star was distributing specifications for laser weapons and details about mining operations on worlds like Ilum.

    Unfortunately I don't know how much the Death Star novel still works in One Canon, it's been a while since I read it but I do think it's less tight of a storyline than that presented in Rogue One's tie-in materials.
     
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  13. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
    So when exactly would Despayre be destroyed, since that wasn't consistent even in Legends. Lethal Alliance had it taking place before A New Hope and Death Star had it taking place during A New Hope.
     
  14. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Actually, Toprawa had a significant enough population that Isard sent Loor there after the Battle of Endor and it showed that the people were punished by being reduced to stone age living and getting their food after being tossed out of a cart. Not to mention that the Antarian Rangers lived on the world. Tyria Sarkin hailed from Toprawa.
     
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  15. QuinlanSolo

    QuinlanSolo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 17, 2019
    One way of looking at it (assuming overlap/concurrency at certain points):

    - The Rebel Alliance, after receiving clues from Garm Bel Iblis, Ackbar, and the Ghost crew, finally confirms the existence and planet-destroying capability of the DS in the wake of Leia's mission to Ralltiir (ANH Radio Drama and Empire #5; treating TFU as N-Canon).
    - Though they only officially joined the Rebel Alliance after the Battle of Yavin, the Bothan Spynet was already beginning to assist the Rebels at this crucial juncture. They transmit DS security codes to Alliance High Command (Empire at War), enabling the early attack on the DS seen in the Death Star novel.
    - R1: DS destroys Jedha City
    - DS destroys Despayre (Lethal Alliance; Death Star)
    - R1: Mission to Eadu
    - After the Rebel Council opts for inaction on Jyn Erso's intel (R1), Mon Mothma secretly activates several of her own operations (led by Keyan Farlander (X-Wing), Rianna Saren (Lethal Alliance), and Kyle Katarn (Dark Forces)) which she had already assigned to acquire the DS plans. Each had already acquired, or where then in the process of acquiring, partial sets of the DS plans - Farlander from intercepted Imperial transmissions in the Cron Drift, Saren and Katarn from Danuta. These partial sets of plans are combined (New Essential Chronology endnotes) with another set of plans recovered on Toprawa by Havet Storm (Jedi Dawn) and Bria Tharen leading Red Hand Squadron (Rebel Dawn).
    - The Bothans instigate a prison riot on the DS to obtain yet another set of plans (Battlefront II). The Bothans are able to get the plans to Polis Massa, but Vader (fresh from Mustafar in R1) is hot on their heels.
    - Mothma confides in Bail Organa about her operatives and the Bothans.
    - R1: scene where Bail tells Mothma that he is going to send Leia to pick-up Obi-Wan Kenobi.
    - Bail communicates with the Bothans, advising them to transmit their set of plans from Polis Massa to the Tantive IV in the Tatoo system in a few hours.
    - Radio Drama: Bail and Leia's conversation about Toprawa and Tatooine.
    - R1: The Rebel Fleet (with the Tantive IV docked in the Profundity) leaves Yavin 4 for Scarif.
    - Vader and the 501st smash the Rebel base at Polis Massa and begin trying to trace the transmission of the Bothan set of plans (Battlefront II).
    - R1: Tarkin hears about the Rebel incursion at Scarif. With the set of plans stolen during the Death Star Uprising on his mind, he deduces the Rebels are trying for the plans again and orders that Vader be called from the mop-up operations on Polis Massa to come to Scarif.
    - R1: The Profundity receives the transmissions from Jyn Erso of a set of unencrypted, complete DS plans, Tarkin orders the DS to destroy the Scarif installation, and Vader shows up in the Devastator, but the plans escape aboard the Tantive IV.
    - Radio Drama: The Tantive IV jumps to Toprawa, to receive the other sets of plans from Mothma's back-up missions. The Devastator tracks them there, and after some brief pretense of diplomacy, fires on the Tantive IV, which jumps for Tatooine.
    - Captain Antilles fears that the Imperials are tracking the Tantive IV through its leaky hyperdrive (FACPOV ANH: "Raymus"), but the Imperials are actually tracking them thanks to their plant aboard the Tantive IV, U-3P0.
    - Vader's techs complete the trace from Polis Massa - the outgoing transmission of the plans was aimed at Tatooine (Battlefront II).
    - The Emperor himself, in revenge for the Bothan Spynet's actions, comes to Bothawui and slaughters dozens of Bothans. Bargaining for his life, the last Bothan facing the Emperor offers him information: the plans are being transmitted to the Tantive IV when expected to arrive in the Tatoo system (Empire at War).
    - The Tantive IV arrives in the Tatoo system and recieves the Bothan transmission of the plans from Polis Massa. All the plans are combined in R2.
    - ANH: Vader and the Devastator capture the Tantive IV. Vader tells Leia that he knows "Several transmissions [plural] were beamed to this ship [not just to the Profundity] by Rebel spies," referring to the plans received from Scarif, Toprawa, and Polis Massa.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  16. CosmoHender

    CosmoHender Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 2, 2016
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  17. QuinlanSolo

    QuinlanSolo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 17, 2019
    Thanks! :)
     
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  18. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 10, 2005
    It probably had a big morale boosting effect. The Rebel Alliance had done lots of sneaky spying and raids before. Scarif was still the first time they really showed they could go toe to toe with the Empire and win.

    Course, I could still see Toprawa and Scarif being the same place, just with the island chain where Jyn raided being on the opposite side of the planet from the continent with all the big cities, and Toprawa being reduced to the stone age was at least partially because of the environmental side effects of the low power death star blast.
     
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  19. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 24, 2013
    Has anybody ever attempted a full chronological Boba Fett timeline of canon and Legends? especially the crowded OT era where he seems to be active everywhere. Or at least his most important jobs from TFU through the OT to show how interwoven he was truly. or how he ziggzagged across the galaxy map?

    All the Bounty Hunter comics of Disney/Marvel that are crappy sadly in my opinion (aside brilliant Crimson Dawn stuff), where do they fit into the Legends Bounty Hunter stories in comics, books and short stories? Every hunters OneCanon storyline please? Some are harder to reconsile but I am sure we still can do it all.
     
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  20. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    The Galactic Empire!

    I had some fun with this.

    This is relatively new information that clarified old, but following the Battle of Jakku, the Galactic Concordance defined the borders of the legitimate Galactic Empire. All other territory was to be annexed or was warlord and rogue.

    The Galactic Empire was thus drawn to include Commenor, Tinnel, Denon, Rendilli and Humbarine. It would exclude Stormtrooper Academies on nearby Carida, and potentially Loronar, though it lays between Denon and Tinnel. Coruscant of course includes a provisional government managed by the Grand Vizier Mas Amedda.

    This follows Legends as from a year after Dark Empire there is no central government. The Deep Core warlords and Outer Rim factions are completely illegitimate successors to the Empire in Legends, no matter how ‘True’ they call themselves. Comparatively, I imagine most loyalists outside the ‘legitimate’ Empire considered the Imperials in their nicely defined borders traitors at best. This also meshes with the CTD, which confirms Imperial territory covered a third of the galaxy after the initial Dark Empire collapse (and a quarter of the galaxy a few years later, including the legitimate and illegitimate Imperials.) Better yet, the hanging reference to the Pax Imperica gets to be the Imperial name for the Concordance.

    The Galactic Empire starts on bad footing. Commenor overthrows it’s Moff, and Rendilli refused to take Imperial contracts after the Dark Empire War - as per Legends. Commenor is especially interesting as the planet is hit by Operation Cinder - but the New Republic still hands it to the Empire! This may account for some intransigence from the world later on…

    … but we’re told this Empire comes apart due to their inability to decide on what parts of the Imperial legacy to continue, and it’s position on the New Republic. Its isolated from events involving Daala and Pellaeon, who don’t assist or consolidate this territory. The 17 ABY proposals to allow Imperials to serve in the Senate is just as much aimed at the Empire as the ‘True Empire’ in the Outer Rim, illegitimate as it is. At which point the Empire joins the New Republic wholesale as the Centrist Party, linking with other Centrists at Kuat, Coruscant and Arkanis - and later Orinda, but it would be tempting to say they had fully joined by no later than 25 ABY.

    This is because we have Fyor Rodan, Senator of Commenor, on the New Republic Advisory Council. A Centrist, Commenor ends up undoubtedly representing the Galactic Empire in the Senate, a small group that is of course hung out to dry by Fey’lya; Commenor is hit repeatedly by the Yuuzhan Vong.

    What strengthens the idea of a continuation of the Empire is that Commenor comes to use a fleet of Empire-era Star Destroyers almost randomly on Legacy of the Force - but now we can treat them as the legitimate forces retained by the Galactic Empire after the Battle of Jakku. What plays even well is that the Galactic Alliance is initially based on Denon - an Imperial world.

    Who can say how much this played into the New Republic settling it’s capital instead on Hosnian Prime? But it’s indicative of the Imperial-bend to the GA, rather than the NR returning to Coruscant (which happened before because of government inertia rather than any policy decision, as we know the NR wanted a rotating capital after the Dark Empire War).

    The GA as a UN-type entity that accepts contributions to its naval forces from the NR (the Bounty, the 3rd, 5th and 9th), and the Hapans (the 7th and 8th) and the Imperial Remnant (Megador), also cultivates federal forces to form a Defence Force (the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th). It also allows GA member states to construct their own forces, which Corellia, Bothawui, Nal Hutta and Kashyyyk do.

    The Second Galactic Civil War is particularly intriguing when Commenor and those Star Destroyers align with the Confederates - and Phennir, an Imperial, becomes Supreme Commander. The long revenge of the defeated Galactic Empire seemingly comes into play, and it acts against the Galactic Alliance - by this point little more than an alliance between the NR, Remnant and Hapans - and even the Hapans secede. Perhaps in secret corners, much as Corellia dubbed its anti-GA the Corellian Confederation - the Empire privately called the Confederation the Imperial one. Even more auspicious, it puts them against the Sith Lord Caedus, representing not Order but base tyranny.

    And yet, the entire affair is a miscalculation; the Galactic Empire suffers badly though, and it’s forces are trounced and Commenor battered. But the Empire - and the Confederation - remains independent of the Galactic Alliance and thus the New Republic in the years to come. The Centrist Party remains in-place, gumming up the New Republic Senate, as the First Order plans the final secession that will shatter the Remnant and Galactic Alliance.

    The efforts of the Lecersen Conspiracy - masterminded by a First Order plant - unravel at the hands of Abeloth and a Lost Tribe of Sith, but the First Order comes to fruition and locks the galaxy into a short-lived Cold War. This may even explain why Corellia was a First Order world, if the Galactic Empire led the Confederates (sans the Hutts) into the waiting hands of Snoke - and Palpatine reborn.

    But it’s all moot when Starkiller Base reminds the Galactic Empire - and the galaxy - of the true face of Centrism without limits. The New Republic is crippled, the Galactic Alliance has faded away, and even Mon Calamari, previously fervently supportive of the Resistance, takes a neutral stance. The true Galactic Empire is only placed to be restored for a single day - and with the Galactic Alliance restored to march on Exegol; it’s over before it’s begun.

    But do I consider that these selfsame worlds secede to join the Fel Empire in response to the Ossus Project? Why not.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 24, 2013
    Makes me wonder if the Sith the Vong sought as potential allies against the Jedi actually were the Sith Eternal of which the Vong had knowledge but the galaxy not yet at that time. And given ties between One Sith and Exegol, Second Imperium Holopalpatine and Exegol and maybe Lumiya and Vergere and Exegol, there is an entirely different side to the machinations of Exegol during and with the Vong Invasion.

    Exegol may have had Vong encounters thx to nearby Chiss dealing with advanced forces of them in the Unknown Regions and had to consider if they are a threat to the reborn Emperors plans or if not and useful to weaken the galaxy. While they initially probably did not think them a threat larger than the Nagai and Tof had been, this miscalculation became evident only too late when they decided to get involved, even if not openly. Lumiya was probably activated due to experience with extragalactic invading forces and manipulating them. Hence her meeting Vergere and sending two morons to the Vong that the Strike Team encountered in Star by Star when the invasion got out of hand even for Exegols taste.

    Vergere realized how compromised the Jedi are and not up to their old glory yet, which is why she could not confide in them fully and needed only few ready knights she could train like Jacen. Had the Jedi learned of the Sith or Exegol they'd shift focus and loose the invasion. So Vergere tried to manipulate Vong, Jedi and Sith best as she could using each factions specialties against them and in a way that benefited them as she was not intent on destruction but saving each in her own way. A way that encompassed what she learned from Palpatine as much as the Potentium Heresy her Jedi Master Thracia Cho Leem had introduced her to, as well as classic Jedi teachings and others she discovered herself along with the Yuzzhan Vong's own lore and spirituality.

    Meanwhile the Sith gathered dark side cults as defense forces against the Vong as the Jedi protected the civilized galaxy. This kinda is what strengthened Exegol also as many darksiders and cults got pulled in and united into the Sith Eternal that grew significantly from a smaller circle to the size seen in the arena in Episode IX.

    Before Exegol was ready to save the galaxy from the invasion though, the Jedi ended the war in a surprising peace and redemption for the Vong thx to Zonama Sekot, another entity worrying the reborn Emperor due to its power. The Bothan Ark'kai also was in part manipulated by the Sith who needed Zonama Sekot found and taken out, but the Jedi hid them well.
    In the aftermath many positions emptied due to the invasions death toll were filled by Sith Eternal spies that otherwise shaped the galaxy's recovery in their favor. Jacen's absence on a sojourn was useful for Exegol as he was prime on their threat list. Even Daala had been positioned as a war hero and savior of many who did either not know or care about her imperial crimes so that she could be a political figure later on, slowly rising behind the scenes of the GA politics and Remnant politics. Her anti-Jedi stance was useful to Exegol, even if they did not reveal their support directly as they feared her anti-Jedi stance may turn anti-Sith too.

    When the Chiss-Killik operation turned volatile though, Jacen reemerged on the scene and Exegol's plans were reevaluated that would lead to the opportunity of getting to him and through him so many more. Nobody would know though how close Exegol came to reveal themselves during LOTF, which was averted in the last few minutes before the broadcast only most likely as Jacen had been killed by his sister. This reset some plans and another setback in the form of Abeloth pushed Exegols plans a bit further down the timeline. Had Jacen lived, the Dark Man might have revealed himself and his white Eyes to the galaxy, summoning him to Exegol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2021
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  22. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I very much consider that Jacen becoming the Dark Man threw a few spanners in the works for everyone.

    Thus White Eyes asking Krayt to intervene...
     
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  23. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Holy cow.
    Everything just fits together seamlessly.
     
  24. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I had a LOT of fun with this.
     
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  25. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 24, 2013
    After an interesting discussion on discord, I do wonder what is the deal with the Massassi in canon?

    Especially their connection to the Ordu Aspectu and Rur. And how this history predating Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun on Yavin IV may tie back to their temples that may have then thus also predated Freedon Nadd, who maybe just added more to Yavin IV!?!?

    Dryden Voss had a desk made from stone with an Exar Kun inscription in black obsidian like his Yavin IV temple.

    I advocated the Sith being a culture more than a species for ages. Especially pre 25000BBY. With one species of said culture, the red Sith, prevailing over all others in the long run. Massassi may be one of them separate from the red Sith, yet inbreeding between species muddied the waters as to who is Massassi or Red Sith or both. That'd also tie into the caste system evolving between different species maybe and with crossbreeding getting muddied and less distinct. Same with their interbreeding with human Sith Lords later!

    While one could retcon other species into being part of that Sith culture once, not all should be. But it'd be interesting to consider the option. Zeffo, Rakata and others are not Sith, but were they in part following the way older Sith culture, or even if famous under their own names, by some only considered to be Sith as they "act like Sith and adopted some culture values"?

    The Rakata backstory has them clash with the Sith species giving us a clear distinction between both, but that may be just from a historians pov later on. The Rakatan rise is still a mystery and could well have involved other cultures and Sith like ones. Not just Gree, Kwa, etc. As the ur-kittat Old Tongue as common language/script precurser shows there was a kind of unifying theme to Force Temples of old that at least linguistically is a precurser to the Sith kittat. If that connection is just linguistic though or involved also their culture or species is interesting.

    Another interesting notion is that for some time it was confusing if the Sith species is mammal, reptilian, insectoid or else with various authors interpreting it different. That'd also be resolved if we assume a multi species culture before one got dominantly remembered under that name. With Sith Alchemy allowing crossbreeding maybe where biology might not. Given the different depictions of Massassi in old Marvel (Nightbeast) and other sources, maybe even the Massassi are a multispecies culture and not as singular as one thought. Were the Massassi part of the Sith culture or the Sith part of the Massassi culture? Are the ur-kittat Old Tongue thus Sith originated... or adopted only from the Massassi to the Sith?