Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Tosche_Station, Mar 1, 2016.
We're putting the band back together.
Well, the redemption angle is a separate aspect to my thesis about the origins of the mysterious father character, but I will say that in the Arthurian-style scenario whereby Luke is the 'illegitimate' child of Vader, Annikin imo is no less* tragic than he is in later (from ROTJ on) canon. Following from that, I don't think the 'tragic' factor is the sole compelling reason/factor why Lucas later went the route of making Annikin/Anakin become Vader...but that might be for another discussion.
*if one reads between the lines of Kurtz's take on the 'redemption' angle - with Vader proactively trying to right the wrongs - it might be that in this version of the story, Vader-as-Luke's father would ultimately not get redeemed....which would seem more tragic than what happened in ROTJ.
Since I was tagged and this is an interesting topic.
I did suggest that an alternative where Vader is Luke's father but not Anakin. This would explain why Vader was so sure that Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke the truth. He would not have any way to known what Obi-Wan did/didn't tell Luke.
But as I've also said, it is unlikely that Lucas had any serious plans in this direction.
But assuming that he did go this route, what could be done with this?
It could be used to explain why Vader fell. His affair with Luke's mother could be a genuine thing, that they both really love each other. Her marriage to Anakin could be more of an arranged sort or they did love each other but then she met Vader.
But Anakin finds out and confronts Vader over this, things get out of hand and Vader kills Anakin. This would be his first major step towards the dark side.
Or it could be used to make Vader even more despicable. He fancies Luke's mother but she is married to Anakin. So he murders Anakin to get her for himself. If you really push it he could use the Force to make her submit to him.
Another, really out there idea is this. Vader and Anakin both turn to the dark side, but for different reasons. Say Vader turns and starts to kill Jedi, Anakin is enraged and gives into his hate and goes after Vader with murder in his heart.
They fight and both fall down a lava pit and only one survive but badly burned and unrecognizable. He gets put in the suit and Palpatine either assumes it is Vader, Anakin pretends to be Vader or something. So Obi-Wan and the rest of the galaxy think Anakin is dead and Vader is alive while it is the reverse. This way Obi-Wan doesn't lie to Luke and Vader would know that Obi-Wan couldn't tell Luke the truth.
Yeah it is very cheesy soap opera/comic book/pulp story.
Bye for now.
Well, SW is a soap/space opera so it could work...
An early ESB concept involved a map to Dagobah being in Annikin's lightsaber. This makes me think that Yoda was intended to have been Annikin's master (as well as Obi-Wan's) and therefore Annikin couldn't be the same person as Vader.
Since you and I last discussed it, I've been inclined to think it's more likely than not..or in the very least, more likely than the probability that when TESB was in production that he already had established as canon the ROTJ plot point that Vader used to be Anakin/Anakin turned dark and became Vader.
That last scenario in bold is really good.. Possibly even something that Lucas may have been considering before finally merging Vader with Anakin circa ROTJ. If he didn't consider it, well....that's what we're here for.
The interesting thing about it is that this scenario whereby Yoda was Annikin's master was still in place even in the draft where "I am your father" first appears...
Why would Anakin spontaneously go from being enraged that Jedi are being killed to being a Jedi killer himself?
That's strong evidence for "Luke Skywalker is really Luke Vader" having been the plan at one point. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason that GL ultimately made Vader and Anakin the same person was to avoid bringing up adultery in a PG film.
"Black ops" a.k.a. he's 'pretending' to be Vader* (Emperor doesn't know)....or he just 'helped' the Empire kill them?
*and 'lets' Obi-Wan live in exile on Tatooine? maybe they all went into 'exile'..and Obi-Wan only believes/thinks that 'Vader' destroyed/helped the Empire destroy the Jedi
I think you found something there....
For the same reason why Luke would go from rebel to Palpatine's servant in RotJ if he had killed his father. That film made it clear, if you murder in hate, you turn and apparently it didn't matter that Luke would hate Palpatine and Palpatien had nothing Luke wanted. If he killed in hate, he would become Palpatine's slave.
So if Anakin flew into a rage and went after Vader with hate fueling his actions, then by what the OT shows, he would have turned to the dark side. Once he did that, the emperor could then get him to do his bidding.
Alternative, Anakin wanted to kill the emperor/bring down the empire but he was too well guarded. So he thought "I'll pretend to fall to the dark side and join his side. Then I can get close to him and kill him and bring down the whole empire." But he didn't realize that turning to the darks side isn't something that you can undo with ease. And Palpatine was able to break his will and make him into his willing servant because he had given into his hate.
Bye for now.
I'm more inclined to think that it was a bit of a no-go zone all along, and he had to dance around the more obvious 'adultery' plotline (reminiscent of the Arthurian myth) with other developments, despite the story constantly pushing him in that direction.
Point being, I don't think it actually existed at any stage, although it probably occurred to GL repeatedly - whether it was an illicit affair between Darth Vader & Mother Skywalker (even rape?), or Obi-Wan Kenobi & Mother Skywalker. I don't think he ever intended to take matters that far for a film he might well have sold to Disney, such scenarios would most likely have set off alarm bells in his head before they got to the page.
As a result, you'd have to discount the notion of such 'R-rated' concepts (adultery, rape, even children born out of wedlock) having any bearing upon what ended up in any script drafts. Such concepts still haven't cropped up specifically in any SW film (although they might yet - we don't know if Han & Leia were 'married' when Ben Organa-Solo/Kylo Ren was conceived, and Force-only knows who Rey's parents were).
I guess GL didn't really change, did he? "I can't have adultery in SW since I might want to sell this franchise to Disney" in 1980; "I can't have nudity in SW since I want to maximize the box office" in 1976. No wonder the prequels are so creatively bankrupt: he was always looking ahead to the safe course.
A couple of things:
1. TESB shook-up things a bit by this line on it's own, with both Luke - AND the audience - not knowing what to make of it. Would Luke automatically assume that Vader is saying that he's the same guy that Ben had told him about in the first film? The "memory" of Luke's father circa SW, wasn't technically of someone that Luke remembered, but was a person as described by Ben, of whom he had been misled about by Uncle Owen up until this point in his life.
2. There's inherent drama in the scenario that I allude to above. Here, Luke can choose to follow in the footsteps of the man that Ben recalls - a man whom he should emulate regardless of whether he's Luke's dad or not, versus Vader, whoever he might turn out to be under the mask. If it turns out that Luke is actually related to Vader in some way (whether as son, younger brother, etc.) raises the question of whether Luke could follow in his footsteps, rather than Skywalker Sr. (Annikin/Anakin).
(sorry for the bolded post)
edit to add:
Torib, I believe that all of the bolded parts above could have still been the case for a (alternate) sequel to TESB but one with the 'Luke-as-son-of-Vader-but-not-a-Skywalker' scenario. Besides, I'm not at all certain that all of that texture and grayness of the Jedi that you allude to was really worth it, when it came at the price of Obi-Wan's whole "certain point of view" mess.
Tosche_Station Admittedly, the"certain point of view" speech is a bit painful. But having to explain the theoretical backstory behind Vader being Luke's illegitimate father might also be quite a challenge to do in an elegant way, especially for what are essentially kid's movies.
It's true that there would still be plenty of room for drama either way. But I feel like there is a stronger, purer, more mythological feel to the story when Vader straight-up IS Luke's father in every sense of the word, rather than there being a case of divided loyalties with Luke having grown up as an adopted member of Anakin's family while having the biological connection to Vader. But this is of course just my preference, and having grown up with these movies as they are from a young age, I admit I am naturally biased toward the way things were done. And it is true that a hero being an illegitimate son of a god or something is a pretty common trope in mythology, like Hercules being the son of Zeus. But still, sometimes Star Wars feels a bit like trashy soap opera with all the family reveals, and Vader as illegitimate father would be even more that way.
Something just occurred to me about this issue that tends to be overlooked when Uncle Owen's now-notorious "That's what I'm afraid of" line is brought up as evidence of something sinister or complex regarding Luke's father - Aunt Beru's delivery of the line which Owen is responding to:
"Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him."
OK, taken as read, there's not much there, but when Beru speaks this line, she's smiling (albeit somewhat sadly), and delivers it with a fondness that seems to be as much about Luke's father as it is about Luke himself. If this father she's referring to was the monster that was, or became, Darth Vader, it doesn't work at all. It kind of slips through in the eventual context (even though it doesn't hold up), but it definitely doesn't fit in a storyline where Luke is the bastard offspring of a Darth Vader separate to the hero Annikin Skywalker.
Owen's response works on a number of levels, simply because he's a hardened, somewhat bitter person. It works for the 'Father Vader' context - he's afraid that Luke could turn evil - but it also works for the earlier context where Luke's father was simply a hero who went and got himself killed, because Owen's worried, bitter and miserable about everything. He expresses his disapproval, fear, irritation, frustration etc in the same way.
In the Luke as 'bastard offspring of Darth Vader' scenario, most of the characters of the story were unaware of Luke's true parentage. This would include Beru and Owen. Now, one could say that this would demonstrate the 'liability'* - if you will - of the 'bastard offspring' scenario: nothing in SW (the first film) explicitly or even implicitly falsifies this alternate story, if one keeps in mind that in the floated alternate story, only Vader knew the truth (and perhaps, Annikin and Luke's mother, who are both deceased at this point).
*or the 'beauty' of the theory, depending on how one looks at it
Yeah, Annikin not being Luke's real father is definitely something that would have been kept secret by all the characters involved (Annikin, Ben Kenobi, etc). Rather like how Leia Organa is treated as the blood offspring of Bail and Breha in post-PT canon.
Of course, it's likely that GL had more than one possible answer to the "who is Vader" question up his sleeve (besides the obvious, "well, he's Vader" non-answer). And in those scenarios -- say, if Vader were Luke's older brother, a symbolic evil twin of sorts -- then the question of who knows about Luke's true paternity doesn't arise.
Are we certain Beru knows that Anakin became Darth? Owen knows for sure. Has it ever been specified whether Obi Wan told them both, or just Owen?
Per the conversation that they have: they both know.
What do you base this on?
And how does them knowing make any sense?
Beru talks about Luke's father with a slight smile on her face. That does not fit with her knowing that he became the second most evil man in the galaxy.
And Owen, he doesn't want to loose Luke, partly because he needs him but I also believe that he cares about him and doesn't want him to get himself killed.
What he says fits very well with them thinking that Anakin was killed in the war or in the Jedi purge.
If Owen thinks that Luke is the spawn of Evil, wouldn't he want him gone as soon as possible?
And how could they know?
The only way they could know is if Obi-Wan told them. And why would he do a stupid thing like that?
Secrecy was vital to him and Yoda so telling two people that he doesn't know the truth about Anakin is very risky. They could tell Luke or let something slip and Luke would find out. And Obi-Wan doesn't want that. Also telling them that this kid is the son of an evil overlord wouldn't help the chances of them accepting the child.
Obi-Wan has shown that he isn't beyond omitting the truth or lying so why would he be so honest here?
Telling them a white lie that Anakin is dead and here is his son, that makes sense.
Telling them everything is senseless and risky.
Also, at the point that Obi-Wan handed over baby Luke, wouldn't he think that Anakin really was dead? So again why bring up the whole "he became evil" bit?
And if he didn't then, if he then found out that Anakin was still alive, why tell Owen and Beru?
Serves no purpose.
So no, I don't think they knew and there is no logical reason why they would know and their actions and dialogue doesn't fit them knowing.
Bye for now.
"He has too much of his father in him."
"That's what I'm afraid of."
How does it not?
"Doesn't fit"?! Well, a kind and compassionate boy doesn't fit with the second most evil man in the galaxy, but newsflash: they are one and the same.
She is obviously talking about the person Anakin was before he fell, while Owen is reminding her of what he became. Did I really need to explain this?
Which works just as well if not better with;
"Luke's father was adventurous and idealistic and left Tatooine and got himself killed."
It fits with how Luke is, it fits with Beru talking about Luke's father with a slight smile and it fits with Owen being afraid of this because he does not want Luke to throw his life away.
It does not work very well with;
"Luke's father is an evil monster that betrayed his friends."
Because Beru has no reason to think fondly of this evil creep and Owen would be more afraid of having this spawn of evil in his home and would want him gone as soon as possible.
I explained how in my post, did you not read it?
Owen and Beru could only know the truth if Obi-Wan told them.
And since secrecy was vital to Obi-Wan/Yoda it makes no sense for him to tell them this because a) it runs the risk of them telling Luke this and b) it runs the risk of them refusing to take this child of evil into their home.
So Obi-Wan has no reason to tell them and plenty of reason not to.
Since the fall of the Jedi is big news, it will probably reach even Owen and Beru. So all Obi-Wan has to do is to say "This is the son of Anakin and Padme, they are both dead, please take care of him."
Newsflash, when ANH was made Luke's father and Vader were NOT one and the same.
When Lucas ret-conned Vader into being father Skywalker, the question became how this fits with what is said in ANH.
What Obi-Wan said are basically lies/twisting of the truth because he doesn't feel that Luke is ready plus his "certain point of view" spiel.
Owen and Beru? The question is, do they know the truth?
Since none of the films directly show them being told what exactly happened to Anakin, it is not 100% sure if they did know or not.
To me, them not knowing and instead thinking that Anakin died in the war/Jedi purge along with Padme makes a lot more sense than them knowing he became evil.
First because, as I've said, the only way they could know is if Obi-Wan told them and it makes no sense for him to do so. And second, what they say and the way they speak of Luke's father does not fit with them knowing that he is Darth Vader.
Yeah you kind of do since this is your interpretation of the scene and you have no direct evidence that they do know or that Beru is talking about the good person Anakin was and Owen is talking about the evil monster he now is.
I've shown an alternative explanation above.
Which imho fits better.
Owen, despite being gruff and quite terse with Luke, does care about him and he doesn't want to him to die in a pointless way, like his father did.
To sum up, no direct film evidence exists that proves that Owen and Beru knew the truth.
Since the dialogue they spoke was written with Luke's father being very separate from Vader, it does not prove that they knew. You can interpret it that way but to me that interpretation is flawed.
I know that people have interpreted Obi-Wan's pause before telling Luke about his father in ANH as evidence that Vader was Luke's father when ANH was made. Again that interpretation is also flawed imho.
What they say is flexible enough that we can say that they didn't know the full truth, they, like Luke, were lied to by Obi-Wan.
Personally, I think ANH implied a closer relationship between Owen/Beru and Luke's father than what the PT showed. They met they guy for maybe a day, not enough time to really get to know him.
Bye for now.
Subjective and irrelevant to what I was replying to.
Then again, that was never stated.
Beru had many reasons to think fondly of Anakin, not the "evil creep" that he became.
"Spawn of evil"?! "Would want him gone"?! What the...
You provided no valid explanation. Your premiss is that someone can't think fondly of a person before said person turned bad, which is a fallacy because said premiss is not necessarily true.
Obi-Wan had to tell them because a) they were the ones who were going to adopt Luke and b) since they were going to adopt Luke, they needed to know the truth to take every necessary precaution during his upbringing.
If Obi-Wan didn't trust them with the truth, they it wouldn't make sense for him to give them a kid who's true identity would put his life at risk. Why would they reveal the truth when it would put their nephew's life at risk?
Obi-Wan had plenty of reason to tell them and no valid reason not to.
Baseless speculation. The Empire eventually occupied Tatooine, all the more reason to tell them the truth so that they could prevent any unnecessary accidents.
No, that's not all he had to say if they were going to raise him. Precautions would need to be taken.
No, they weren't. But that has nothing to do with the question I was replying to. As the story is now, they both know that Anakin fell otherwise there would be nothing to fear on Owen's part.
Considering Owen's apprehension and fear about Luke being similar to his father (as established in the OT) and the fact that they were the ones chosen to raise and take care of Luke, I'm sure they do know.
No, very relevant as you interpret Owen's line of "That is what I am afraid of" as meaning "His father became evil and Luke could as well."
This is the basis for you assuming that Owen and Beru knows that Luke's father is Vader.
I gave an alternative explanation that fits just as well with that line.
And since the line was written with Luke's father NOT being Vader, you have very little basis to assume that it means this.
You argue that Owen and Beru know the truth, that Luke's father turned evil and helped destroy the Jedi and ensure the rise of the Empire.
She met the guy for at most a day so she barely knows him.
She has been told about him by Shmi and now she is told by Obi-Wan that he turned evil and betrayed all his friends.
Not much reason to smile about this evil guy she barely knows.
I provided several, secrecy, that Obi-Wan has no reason to tell them, that Beru barely knows Anakin and thus her thinking that he died a good man makes more sense than her knowing that he became evil.
What precautions? Change his name, they didn't do that.
Lie about who his father was? That Owen lied about Luke's father being just a navigator sure didn't seem to be Obi-Wans idea.
Obi-Wan wanted to give Luke his fathers light sabre but Owen opposed it.
That if they did something bad while raising him he would turn evil?
This is very much baseless speculation.
If Obi-Wan trusts them and think they can raise Luke well, it makes no sense that he would tell them to walk on eggshells with Luke and not to do anything that could cause him to turn evil.
And Owen and Beru sure don't seem to treat Luke with any extra special care nor do they seem afraid of doing something that could upset him.
And no, Obi-Wan didn't have to tell them that Luke's father turned evil.
It would be enough to say that Luke is the son of a Jedi and that the Jedi are now hunted by the empire.
Obi-Wan didn't trust Luke with the truth so he obviously has no qualms about lying.
They know that Luke's father was a Jedi and Obi-Wan most likely told him that his parents were killed by the empire. So they could take some precautions.
Yet they didn't change his name and while Owen stalled Luke's application, he didn't outright forbid it.
No, again, the more people that know about a secret, the greater the chance that the truth gets out.
And Obi-Wan didn't know Owen or Beru when he handed Luke over so he had no way to know if they could be trusted with this secret or that they might let it slip.
Plus, when he gave them Luke, wouldn't he think that Anakin was dead?
If so, why tell them this? Anakin is dead anyway so no point.
Him telling them serves no purpose at all and only increases the risk that Luke finds out, which Obi-Wan doesn't want.
They can raise Luke even without them knowing exactly what happened to his father. In fact, it would probably be better if they didn't know as knowing could cause them to treat Luke like some walking time bomb. Which could backfire badly.
Again what precautions?
And what accidents?
THIS is baseless speculation on your part.
They didn't change Luke's name and if they knew that Luke's father turned evil and is still out there, working for the empire, they would have even more reason to do so.
All they need to know is that Luke's parents are dead and since they know that Anakin was a Jedi and news about the Jedi purge would probably reach even them, he could tell them that they were killed by the empire.
That will do. No need to tell them that Luke's father turned to the dark side or anything like that.
It has everything to do with it. The line was written when Luke's father was NOT Vader and had in fact been murdered by him. So the line was about Owen being worried about Luke leaving Tatooine and getting himself killed. Which is what happened to his father. He left with Obi-Wan, got himself killed and Owen was left with Luke. And Owen doesn't want the same thing to happen to Luke.
And the line works just fine even with the PT.
Owen and Beru knows that Anakin left Tatooine and became a Jedi and probably that he eventually got himself killed. Owen cares about Luke and doesn't want him to die. This explains his worry.
That Luke wants to leave and go out into the galaxy and get himself killed.
Considering that line was about Owen being worried about Luke being adventurous and idealistic like his father and how those things eventually got Luke's father killed and he doesn't want that to happen to Luke, I don't agree with your assumption.
Owen's fear was for Luke being similar to his father, who was still separate from Vader and thus his fears had nothing to do with turning evil.
Bye for now.
TESB was written knowing what was said in ANH. So once it was established that Vader and Anakin were one and the same, what we interpreted with Owen's line in ANH changed because what we thought we knew to be true, wasn't anymore.
a) She met him.
b) She spent years with his mother who surely told what Anakin was like and what he did.
She knows more about Anakin than Vader. She never met Vader, but she met and knew Anakin, so it's perfectly reasonable for her to associate Luke's behaviour with Anakin's.
Yes, under a false premiss.
They didn't need to change his name, they needed to change/hide his parentage (which they did).
Perhaps it was Owen's idea after learning the truth.
He wanted to give him when he was old enough. And yes, Owen wouldn't allow it (all the more reason to assume he knows the truth).
How does the ability to raise Luke well makes it unnecessary to have precautions about someone who shouldn't exist?
Another false premiss.
"Seem"? Oh, subjective percetion with no evidence to support it.
Assuming Owen and Beru are not to be trusted. But they are, hence why he gave them Luke for adoption.
The Jedi know Owen and Beru enough to trust them with Luke.
We don't know what he thinks. And again, he would tell the truth for them to take any precautions during his upbringing. Luke is not some average Joe. The Force runs strong with him.
And then the sequel was written and what was said in ANH had to be compatible with what the actual story was. And it is compatible, the meaning of the line has changed.
Owen's line does not have to be reinterpreted as the films don't establish that Owen knew that Luke's father became Vader.
Luke thought his father was dead because he had been lied to.
The same works for Owen, Obi-Wan didn't tell him everything and he just knows that Luke's parents are dead.
And there are lines that don't match up,
Obi-Wan saying "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough.."
That is a total lie on Obi-Wan's part as Anakin never says any such thing.
This was a ret-con and Lucas could get away with it but not all dialogue matches.
Nothing in the films even remotely implies she knows anything about Vader or has even heard the name.
So to hide Luke's parentage they do NOT change his name?
How does this make sense?
If they want to hide his parentage, changing his name would be the first thing they would do and it would be both easy and makes sense.
Esp if they know that a turned evil Anakin is out there, who could very well react to hearing about a Skywalker from Tatooine.
Again no, Owen fears that Luke will leave and get himself killed and he doesn't want that.
What is a false premiss is you insisting that Owen and Beru must know the truth, otherwise they won't be able to raise Luke.
FACT, in ANH they raised him just fine with just knowing that his father had gotten himself killed.
So your assumption of "They must know or else bad things will happen." is unfounded.
Don't pretend that your assumptions and perceptions aren't just that.
You ASSUME, with no direct evidence I might add, that Owen and Beru knows the truth.
Your basis is a line that wasn't written to mean what you want it to mean.
You further assume that Owen and Beru can't properly raise Luke if they just think his father was a good man who got himself killed. No they have to know that he became evil and turned against all his friends.
You still haven't provided anything to back up this claim.
I on the other hand have secrecy, which Obi-Wan was very keen about and he kept Luke in the dark as long as possible. If either of Owen or Beru had let something slip, all that work would be ruined.
Tell me, does Obi-Wan trust Luke?
Not enough to be honest with him. He kept the truth from him and Luke had to learn from Vader.
Obi-Wan has never met Owen or Beru before.
ANH seemed to imply that Anakin left Tatooine with Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan thus had a chance to meet Owen and Beru then.
But given the PT, Obi-Wan has never met them and knows next to nothing about them.
And the issue is the risk of them letting something slip and Luke finds out his father is a evil monster.
Something that Obi-Wan desperately wanted to avoid happening.
He was so against telling Luke this that even when it was clear that Luke was leaving and would come face to face with his evil father, he still didn't tell him.
Since he left a dismembered Anakin to burn to death, I'd say it is very likely that he doesn't think he is still alive.
As for Luke being Force sensitive, yes that is clear by his father being a Jedi. Owen and Beru would know this just from that. No need at all to bring up the whole "fell to the dark side" too.
Also, given the PT and midi testing and all that. Jedi are taken in very young. But I would assume that some parents turn the offer down and keep their children. So they raise them themselves.
So these parents raise children, knowing that they are Force sensitive so clearly parents are quite able to raise children with latent force powers.
Does you reasoning apply here too?
That these parents must know about turning to the dark side, despite this not happening to the child's parents otherwise they would not be able to raise their children?
What about people outside of the republic that have Force sensitive children?
Suppose they don't know this, will that cause the child to become an evil monster?
Take Shmi, she might not know exactly that Anakin has Force powers but she is aware that he has special abilities. Was she told about this "turn to the dark side" bit? No.
And yet she raised him quite well all things considered.
Your argument of, "people that raise children must know both that the child is force-sensitive and about turning to the dark side or else "accidents will happen".". I don't think it holds any water.
There must be people that raise their children without knowing they are Force sensitive and yet they don't become evil. Parents that do know and yet their children don't become evil.
You keep insisting this but that doesn't make it true.
Luke said in ANH that his father was dead. In ANH that was the truth.
With the ret con, Luke believes it to be true because he has been lied to.
No need to alter what Luke says or thinks.
Same with Owen and Beru, they have been lied to in order to protect them and Luke.
Bye for now.