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Saga The Origins of Luke's father - Annikin Starkiller, Anakin Skywalker, or Darth Vader?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Tosche_Station, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Knight star 2

    Feb 9, 2015
    Technically speaking, the mysterious or secret identity comes into play in between the third and fourth drafts.
    oierem likes this.
  2. patbuddha

    patbuddha Jedi Master

    Feb 3, 2002
    This is an interesting wrinkle. I took a look at it. Also in that same scene just prior is this:
    "They enter a small gloomy chamber where Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith, is sitting. Vader speaks in an oddly filtered voice through his complex breathing mask."

    It doesn't mention him lifting the mask prior to the bit where he takes the drink. So either the idea of Vader's hidden identity was being worked out in the middle of the draft or it was imagined that he would be able to drink through the mask.

    Good spot. I'm trying to compile and analyze all the counterarguments for a video I want to make on the subject.
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    In the fourth draft, a cup floats into Vader's hand in the DS conference scene.
    So even there he could apparently drink.
    This is in the revised fourth draft, the cup is not mentioned in the public version of the fourth draft but that draft also has the ep IV subtitle which wasn't added to the film until a 1979 re-release. So the draft was apparently altered after the fact.

    Also in the fourth draft, Obi-Wan says this;

    So Vader is called a "boy" and just young Jedi, not Jedi Knight like Obi-Wan and Luke's father.
    Also, Obi-Wan said that he hasn't gone by the name Obi-Wan since before Luke was born.
    Why would he need to hide his name? Most likely because the empire was now hunting Jedi down and Vader has now turned evil. If Vader is Luke's father and has turned evil before Luke was even born.
    How could he tell Obi-Wan that he wanted Luke to have his lightsaber if Luke was not born yet and by now he has turned evil?

    There is also Owen and Beru, both are somewhat old, the actors were in their 50's I believe.
    They clearly knew Luke's father and Beru could see how Luke is much like his father.
    So that to me implies that Luke's father should be of an age as them, maybe a few years younger.
    Doesn't really fit with the implied younger age for Vader.

    Some other things;
    Does the third draft say that Vader killed Luke's father?
    Luke's father was killed at the battle of Condawn, where Darth Vader took the Kiber crystal but I don't recall that Vader was mentioned as having killed Luke's father.
    Also Luke clearly knew his father and heard lots of stories from him. So his father might have been dead for maybe 10 years.

    So Vader was the pupil of Obi-Wan but earlier Obi-Wan also said that he had never met Luke before.
    And Luke was with his father for several years.
    How does that work?
    Luke's father trains under Obi-Wan, has Luke and yet Luke and Obi-Wan never met?

    Except this makes no sense.
    If Lucas was on fence about going with Vader as the father, why have a scene that directly contradicts it?
    If Lucas had planned for Vader as the father, why didn't he mention that to Brackett?
    That was why he hired her, to write the script. And they did have script meetings.
    So talk it over with her, get some feedback.
    Why let her write a scene that totally changes his plans for Vader?
    Even if he is not sure, just tell Brackett to not include Luke's father, simple.

    In closing, I think what happened between the drafts is Lucas trying to cut down the number of characters and make the story shorter.
    Having both father and son plus several bothers, lots of characters. So make it just Luke.
    In the third draft there were several Sith Lords, later just Vader.
    With ESB, the father in the first draft serves no real purpose and is a bit redudant.
    Most likely Lucas figured this out when he read it and he wasn't happy with the script overall.
    But when he contacted Brackett to start to work on a second draft, she was ill and could not work.
    So Lucas was left with a script he didn't like and no writer. So he had to work at himself.
    And I think here he got inspired, the father character was not needed so why not combine Vader and the father. Kill two birds with one stone.

    So from everything I have read and heard, I think Vader became Luke's father with the second draft of ESB.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Tosche_Station and oierem like this.
  4. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2009
    Good luck with the video! But just as a bit of advice, keep in mind that what you are proposing is a theory, a valid one, but one that you can't prove. Offering arguments to back up a theory is great, but don't make the mistake (like many do) of convincing yourself that your theory is the only valid one.

    The (sad) truth is none of us can be 100% sure about when Vader became Luke's father, and we will (most probably) never get to know the answer to that question.

    This is probably the biggest argument against the idea that Vader was already Luke's father. The wording of the scene doesn't really make any sense if Vader and Anakin are meant to be one and the same.

    No. If I remember correctly, the revised fourth draft is the first draft that mentions it.
    Samuel Vimes likes this.
  5. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 14, 2018
    The third draft does say, however, that Luke's father died in the Battle of Condawn, where the last of the Jedi were defeated because Darth Vader betrayed them. (And "Condawn" sounds like it could be the name of a fiery planet in the vein of Mustafar.)
    Tosche_Station and Iron_lord like this.
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 5X Wacky Wednesday Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Sep 2, 2012
    We know the idea that Obi-Wan and Vader duelled somewhere volcanic, goes right back to 1977:

    Published November 1977 by Galaxy Publications. Text writers Jon Trux, John May, Michael Marten.

    As on earth where we have White and Black Magic, so the Force has its dark side and Vader, for reasons that are unclear, became consumed by it. It led him to that fateful day when, in a fierce battle, he killed Luke Skywalker's father.

    What is less well known is that Vader himself was then almost killed by Ben Kenobi, who was understandably enraged at his disciple's fall from grace. Vader's life might have ended then and there with a quick stab of a light saber; instead, during the fight, Vader stumbled backwards and fell into a volcanic pit where he was nearly fried alive. What remained was dragged out and preserved by encasing it in an outsized black metal suit - virtually a walking iron lung.
    BlackRanger likes this.
  7. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 14, 2018
    And Vader defeating the last remaining Jedi at the same time as he was horrifically burnt would make a sensible explanation for why he might build a castle on that same lava planet.

    Also, third-draft Ben Kenobi didn't come out of the Clone Wars entirely unscathed either - he has a skilfully disguised prosthetic right hand like Luke's in ROTJ.
    Tosche_Station and Iron_lord like this.
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Obi-Wan having cyborg parts is likely from the first draft, where the father, Kane, had cyborg parts.

    And to me, the third draft implied that Vader betrayed the Jedi at the battle of Condawn and stole the Kiber crystal. So it sounds like he got away.
    It did not sound like he was horribly burned there.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  9. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Knight star 2

    Feb 9, 2015
    Have to agree with the above.

    I respectfully disagree. Vader being a pupil of Ben doesn't rule out him being a father to Luke anymore than than Ben being Annikin's "commander" (per the Third Draft?) would rule out Annikin being Luke's father*.

    *Or even the scenario of Lucas' (type-written) draft of the subsequent film (TESB), where Ben is said to have trained Luke's father (in addition to Vader).

    To be fair, the argument in this thread isn't that Vader and Anakin* were meant to be one and the same as far back as the first film, only that Vader under the mask would later (in later films/books) be revealed to be a relative to Luke in some fashion - whether as older brother, uncle, or father.

    *If Anakin or Annikin is assumed to be the name of the Jedi friend/father character that Ben spoke of in the first film
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    And I don't agree with you.
    My argument was about the use of titles, that Obi-Wan and Luke's father were both Jedi Knights while Vader was just "young jedi."
    Ex, say instead of Jedi you have;
    "Yes I was once a Medical Doctor same as your father....a young med student named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil."

    To me the difference in titles, "Medical Doctor" and "med student" are an indication that these are different people.

    Luke's father could have been trained by Obi-Wan sure. In ANH we hear about him following Obi-Wan on some foolish crusade. So Obi-Wan could have found Luke's father, convinced him to leave Tatooine, trained him as a Jedi, Luke's father completing it and becoming a Jedi Knight, like Obi-Wan.
    Then Obi-Wan starts to train Vader, who was younger than Obi-Wan and Luke's father, but Vader turns to evil before his training was complete. Which Vader himself hints at in ANH.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  11. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Nov 5, 2001
    Wait, what?? I read Rinzler's Making of Star Wars book and I can't recall anything like that. Although the R-rated Star Wars does have a certain appeal I admit [face_laugh]
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  12. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 27, 2016
    I love everything about OT unused ideas