PT The Phantom Menace - Is It Racist?

The East Indian Trading Company dealt in tea, spices & various produce. The Trade Fed in the movies was associated with technology & robotics. Japanese industry is famous for technology, electronics & robotics. The average moviegoer is more likely to make that association & would probably no nothing of the East Indian Trading Company.

The Neimoidians, esp Nute Gunray speak with an obvious "Engrish" accent.

If you can't see below the two classic features that are always used with offensive Asian stereotypes (flat face & slanted eyes) then I can't help you.


Anyway we don't need to debate whether the Neimoidians were based on the Japanese & East Asians. Following the movies Lucasfilm all but confirmed it. In TCW & the EU they named their language "Pak Pak". Their planets & cities are called Kato, Deko, Koru & Koto-Si. Can you get more Japanese than that? What more do you want? They are clearly & deliberately based on the Japanese. The only explanation is that LFL didn't believe it was racist or creating a negative stereotype to do so. I think they got this wrong.

 

The United States of America is also famous for its technology and electronics. Michael Dell and Bill Gates are both of Caucasian descent. Does that mean the TF are Americans? Chinese, Japanese, Korean, American: "Moviegoers" cannot agree which nationality the Trade Federation is meant to represent. Any stereotyping of their supposed ethnicity is so ambiguous as to be a complete failure.

You keep using that slur, "Engrish". But at no time does any member of the TF use an "r" in place of an "l". Your naming of it as "obvious" is not an opinion that is shared by anyone else here. Thus as a racial stereotype it utterly fails.

You've cherry-picked an image that is not in the films of a Neimoidian with his brows furrowed in anger, making his eyes appear slanted or narrow in this single still image. In the movies as they existed in the theater and exist now on DVD/BRD, the characters under discussion never look like that. Not in a single frame. Their eyes are rounded rectangles, shaped like dominoes if you will, not narrow or slanted. Their faces are not flat but rather horse-like and prognathic. These are not traits associated with Asian stereotypes.

This is entirely untrue. Lucas himself said that he intended the characters to be more reminiscent of Transylvanians, a nation-state that once belonged to Hungary and is now part of Romania. There has been no confirmation or admission by LFL that the TF are based on Asians. You're entitled to your opinion, but LFL has never agreed with it in any sense.

Star Wars is a cultural pastiche. It derives mythic resonance from visual and thematic similarities to existing Earth cultures. Luke is kind of like an American farmboy. Han is kind of like an Old West gunslinger. The Wookiees' treehouses are based on southeastern Asian designs. (They're good guys, BTW.) The Jedi have an Asian Buddhist aesthetic. The Imperials are similar to Nazis, and so forth. There are only so many cultures on Earth to draw from. There are certainly Asian influences in the costume designs of the Neimoidians, but also in the Jedi's robes, Queen Amidala's kabuki make-up and dresses, and in the homes of the Wookiees. To pick one single villainous race out of all the rest and say "this is an insensitive and offensive racist stereotype" is to ignore all the other ways in which similar iconography is used for the heroic characters.

Snap.

 

*sigh*

 

Where? As I recall, this is what we see:

Amidala: "Jar Jar Binks"
Jar Jar: "Meesa, your Highness?"
Amidala: "Yes. I need your help."

CUT TO:

Obi-Wan: "Jar Jar is on his way to the Gungan city, Master."

Again, at no point do we see him get told to do anything of the sort. You also seem to entirely dismiss the possibility of any ulterior motive on Jar Jar's part in revealing to Amidala that the Gungans have an army in the first place. Purely speculation, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

He had already come to terms with the off-screen decision to return and face the other Gungans by that point, remember. And that's another thing; nobody forces Jar Jar to reveal the Gungans secret location. He does so willingly, clearly trying to help. That's certainly his own initiative.

Again, I stress, this is all separate to the original point I was making. Whether Jar Jar gets persuaded, ordered, or does any of these things of his own accord is secondary to the point that his character proves useful and makes a profound difference to the course of events.. and this was the point you initially took issue with.

 

"On second thought, no, not really no"
"No?!"
"Ah!"

And yea, even your example:
"I need your help!"
"Me?"
"Fo sho"

cut to him helping lmao.

He gets told, and does, what's so difficult about it.

You're grasping at straws.

1) Still displays no fear of death at any point. Except at the beginning of the movie, where he gets persuaded quite easily.
2) So how he acts in the 2nd phase doesn't count cause it was just a continuation of 1st phase, but the initiative in 2nd phase counts despite just being a mere continuation?

"No one's there"
"They've disappeared??"
"Nah, they've gone to location B"

Pretty sure I took issue with "he's useful (and noble) as a person", not "his presence is of use".

 

Yeah -- he does sound slightly bitter that Maul has about three lines and then gets cut in half, doesn't he? I notice how he mentions Terence Stamp. Stamp plays another character with a handful of lines who is metaphorically cut in half (by Palpatine). A lot of prequel criticism strikes me as sour grapes. Stamp even admitted that he was hoping to meet Natalie Portman; but she was substituted for the day (she was studying at the time) by a stick.

What's interesting is, while the main actors have made critical comments here and there, none of them has ever knocked Star Wars for being racist, or personally attacked Lucas in any tangible way. Much the opposite (before anyone cites mere expedience): they might have despaired at Lucas' basic directorial style, but several have also expressed a kind of playful affection for the man himself and seem to have loved working with him.

Yet fringe actors (with regard to TPM at least), like Hugh Quarshie, Ralph Brown, Terence Stamp, Peter Serafinowitcz, have all been rather rude. Not to say that all the fringe actors have gone this way, however. Temuera Morrison seems genuinely proud to have been cast and contributed his talents; and there was also that nice interview recently posted with Andy Secombe. What is it with those TPM particulars, though? You know, I think it's got something to do with the mismatch, or interplay, between their very small roles and the gargantuan hype and popularity of the film itself. I think something really rubs them about it; and they didn't really get to interact with Lucas enough to know his mind or his heart.

The Jawas??????

What's next? Ewoks are racist against teddy bears?????? R2-D2 is offensive to short people with an irascible streak??????

I've got a fault with my headphones. It's a little painful to listen to videos right now (they've been on their way out a while). Sounds like I'd be in even more pain if I dared to bother, though. The Pegg/Serafinowicz connection explains a lot. I'm tired of these B-grade celebrities and their two-bit attention-whoring opinions.

Does it also strike anyone that they come across as ignorant man-children? TPM was the "most racist" film of the 20th Century??????? Good Lord. Can they see anything above their secret mountain stash of Captain Tarpals figures?

The stupid is so strong, it hurts.

Germanic or Teutonic. I'd say you have a healthy take on it. There is all kinds of stereotyped encoding; but as you say, it's quite apart from something being "racist", per se. If these people had any self-awareness at all, they might realize that their own careers profit enormously from a hetero-normative, white, male, Anglo-Supremacist hegemonic global culture. In other words, if you're heterosexual (or not openly gay), Caucasian, male, and speak fluent English, you have an immense advantage over every other type of human being in the world today.

Instead of isolating their own privilege, these half-wits project onto Lucas, using laughably cherry-picked examples, and make the most egregiously bigoted and offensive statements like TPM is the "most racist" film of the 20th Century; and they're only able to issue these utterances because of the dominant hegemony. The media values their voices over other nationalities, genders, sexualities, phenotypes, and the unheard multitudes of the dispossessed. But they don't seem to notice the irony. Just surreal.

Sheer brilliance!!!!

Before my headphones (almost completely) cut out, I heard him say, about the criticism of Jar Jar, "that was cowards talking trash". Yes!!!!

Because, as he also says in-context, Jar Jar is a hero in the film, who valiantly leads the Gungans into battle. So much for that silly reddit thesis: Jar Jar is prepared to die for his planet and for his people.

Which should also put the lie to the notion being promulgated, yet again, in here, that Jar Jar is a worthless creature who does everything in a mindless, bestial way. No, occasionally, actually, he displays incredible fortitude and werewithal, rising above his own instincts.

And his smaller acts of kindness shouldn't be overlooked, either. Like his affectionate glances and comments to people in distress (e.g., Amidala on Coruscant) or not in the highest station in life (e.g., Anakin and his mother).

As for the Neimoidians being a terrible "Asian" caricature...

I don't quite understand where people come up with this stuff. Their accents are a bit chintzy, in that "B-movie/Saturday matinee/action-adventure serial" way, and that's it. It's hardly scandalous of Lucas to have knitted together a few trashier elements. That's Star Wars: space trash. Did everyone miss all the scavenging and trash themes in the original movie?

Their clothing is a mix of Chinese and African designs; as are the battle droids (African art). Japan might be famous for robotics and microelectronics, but battle droids only tick the first box and have a non-Asian aesthetic. I've never seen the TF as analogous to Japanese imperialism or anything like that. But I also fail to see what would be quite so offensive if they were. The whole saga is a satire of imperialism; chiefly, British imperialism. The opening march is a riff on British marching themes; the scrolling text could be from an old western-power newsreel.

And the films, of course, convey powerful themes of collectivism tempered by individualism. No-one is above a bit of sending up in the series. And there is an underlying call for tolerance, activism, co-operation, and justice. Respect for difference is emphasized in characters like Jar Jar and Yoda who actively tests Luke's patience. The Rebel Alliance highlights different groups and genders coming together to overthrow an immense bureaucracy populated by minimal droids and absolutely zero women, different races, and non-human species.

Strange how no-one notices clever details like Jar Jar being the only non-human on the landing platform on the human-dominated Coruscant (and seat of the Galactic Republic). Or how Anakin, the slave, and Jar Jar, the exile, are barred from Palpatine's main apartment. Or how, yes, it's Jar Jar who confides in Amidala, and Amidala who places trust in Jar Jar, in order to reclaim Naboo. The final reel of the film shows a conditional, four-tiled action sequence in which different cultures, creeds, and nationalities work together to drive back evil.

But, hey... those Neimoidians! Darn racist!!!! Personally, I can't stop looking at their strange, insectoid, ruby-red, mirrored eyes: a basic match with Padme's "third eye" gemstone in her Royal Red queen costume. Or how their mottled, reptilian faces anticipate Palpatine's exotic transformation in ROTS; moments before he gives Anakin orders to wipe the TF Neimoidians out.

At the end of the day, Star Wars is such a spectacular odyssey into forms, colours, and repeating patterns, that it's virtually impossible for me to read straight-up racism into any micro-constituent. The Neimoidians talking with Sidious scales up to my eyes as: "creepy aliens plotting with creepy guy in robe". I'm not thinking about some tardy insult, intended or otherwise, to some ethnic group, tribe, or nation. Plainly, that strikes me as absurd.

I think the adult brain constantly looks for slights and put-downs and clumsy swipes at others that often aren't there. Children have a more pure -- and, often times, more honest -- way of seeing the world. And I think it's the open, malleable mind of a child we should adopt when watching Star Wars. Not the close-minded, accusatory mind of offence-seeking and offence-taking adults.

Just my 0.02 cents.

 

It's pretty weird that Asians are the least offended group in regards to the Neimoidians and whites are the most offended.

 

Please provide your source including your extensive polling of the Asian population.

When does it stop being considered "cherry picking"? No matter how many images we post he's never not going to have a flat face & slanted eyes. (Apologies to anyone who finds this talk offensive).

Are these Transylvanian sounding names, Hungarian or Japanese: Kato, Deko, Koru & Koto-Si ? How about Pak-Pak as a language? Sound Asian or Eastern European to you?

"Engrish" is a term for when a Western actor tries on a dodgy Asian accent. That's what happened in the case of the Neimoidians. Most of the dialogue came via Nute Gunray. Lucas directed the actor Silas Carson to imitate a Thai accent. He even brought in a Thai person to say the lines & have Carson repeat them in that accent:

"George and Rick listened to all kinds of different actors from different countries voicing the words that I had spoken on the set, and eventually they decided on a Thai accent. It was very strange, because I could see all the scenes that I was in, but with this Thai actor speaking the lines I had spoken, trying to do my intonations with a heavy Thai accent--and then I had to learn his accent and re-record it. It was the most bizarre process."
http://web.archive.org/web/20080305140705/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/profile/f20020530/indexp4.html

If you don't think that's in poor taste given all of the other similarities then...that's up to you.

Fact is it's very easy to go through each of these elements & identify grey areas & doubt. That's what the people who do use ethnic stereotypes always do. Any one of these points on their own can be argued against. Even a couple of them together. It's the combination of about 6 factors that creates the overwhelming case IMO. They are:

- Speaking with "Engrish" accents, deliberately decided on using a Thai acting coach.
- Allusions to East Asian robes & clothing.
- The East Asian stereotype of corporations, commerce & technology.
- Language is called "Pak Pak" !
- Japanese sounding planets & locations like Kato, Deko, Koru & Koto-Si.
- Having long held stereotypically Asian facial features like those shown above.

All of which may be almost excusable if they were positive & admirable characters. But they're not. They're callous, cruel, greedy & cowardly.

Fact is the way you look at it & interpret it would make it very very easy for people to get away with racial stereotypes. If your view were the rules we all judged these things by true racists who engaged in this kind of thing would have a field day. No stereotype is exact, that's how some people let others get away with it.

For the record though I'm not saying anyone at LFL has been deliberately racist or intended to offend. I do however think that in one or two cases they're guilty of ignorance & poor taste.
Anyway, I'm done talking about this. This isn't what I come to a SW forum to discuss. My opinion is on the record. It's a sensitive topic & everyone has the right to their own view.

 

The burden of proof rests with you: you're the one claiming something rather outsized and immodest (about the Neimoidians being an offensive caricature generally).

It doesn't rest with the people not making the claim.

But, for the record, I'm friends with a young Filipina (woman) who loves Star Wars. Including Jar Jar. I've never heard her utter one word of complaint. She's very smart, too.

I've also had Japanese people in my home (students who lodged there for a while at a previous address). And I know some Chinese people -- albeit, rather loosely -- through my brother. His current and former girlfriend are Chinese by birth and nationality.

Admittedly, I don't know if the latter groups have ever actually watched Star Wars. I couldn't imagine them getting offended (knowing them in the small capacity I have and do). But I can't say for certain, of course.

I think it's wearying, more than offensive.

But I'm not impugning your motives or your passion.

It's a shame that you see it this way, though, in my opinion. I love those designs and think the Neimoidians are an excellent fantasy race.

I'll offer another point of view:

Real racism is normally either unconscious or hidden from view (and that's what makes it so pernicious).

Silly cheese-cake villains in a B-movie-inspired space opera (with plenty of anti-racist themes) hardly compare.

That said, if it's what you see, it's what you see. And no-one can take that away from you.

 

Outer space is racist.

 

I'll concede there is a canted quality to Nute Gunray's eyes, consisting mainly in tthe squiggly line that runs through the middle. But they aren't "narrow" as you earlier asserted; that was a feature of the single still pic you posted upthread, showing a Neimoidean with a furrowed brow. And Gunray is the only one with even slightly canted eyes. If the Neimoidians as a race or a species are supposed to be Asian stereotypes, why is Gunray the only one exhibiting that feature? It doesn't add up.

Pak-Pak evokes Pakistan, and doesn't sound Japanese in the slightest. Are the Neimoideans also Muslim stereotypes? Cato was a Roman politician (and the name is spelled this way, not with a 'K' as you've written it). Are the Neimodeans also Roman stereotypes? Deko has a vaguely Asian sound, but then again the word deco is French/Latin in origin (short for decoratif), and koru is a Maori word for "loop". (Yes, I have google.) Are the Neimodeans also Maori stereotypes? French? At what point do you realize and acknowledge that these are invented sounds meant to invoke an ambiguously exotic flavor, not to denigrate a specific nationality?

Yes, it's easy to introduce doubt into it because it's unsupportable nonsense. The rest of this drivel accusing me of racism (or somehow facilitating the racism of others) for pointing out your logical flaws is not worth the time it would take to refute it. Suffice to say: No.

Yawn.

 

No, the claim was that "Asians are the least offended group". I did not make that claim, so why would I need to prove or disprove it? Ken has made a broad statistical claim. One that seemingly includes knowing the racial background of each of us here discussing this issue & offering some concern about it.

Hogarth Wrightson speaking of cherry picking, you ignored the part about them not using Asian accents even though Lucas brought in a Thai actor & asked Carson to imitate him. Any thoughts?

 

Sure. First, cherry-picking is pulling out specific data points to support a position while ignoring those data points that falsify it. It doesn't mean "neglecting to respond to each of your interlocutor's arguments". You're using the term incorrectly in an apparent attempt to poison the well, IE to make me look foolish or untrustworthy, rather than addressing my specific points.

Second, can you cite a reference for that claim? I've never heard or read it, and I doubt its truth value.

 

Yes. But read the part I placed in parentheses.

That's the broader claim. And you haven't substantiated it. If a portrayal is said to offend a certain subset of people, there should be some data that said group of people are actually, y'know, offended by it.

Or this is just white people talking about it and getting mad on their behalf: a slightly racist notion in itself.

And I think that's what KenW meant. White people seem disproportionately mad about this.

 

The post included the link for the interview with Carson.

Also Pak Pak doesn't remotely sound like anything Pakistani that I've heard of. Could you give some examples? Unless you're just taking the first 3 letters of "Pakistan" & running with that logic?
It sounded Indonesian to me, & sure enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakpak_people

 

I love villains with accents.

 

Yes, I was running with the initial phoneme, which isn't Japanese. So... now the Neimoideans are Indonesian stereotypes (whatever that may be, exactly) and not Japanese. Based on this single invented word. Which isn't mentioned in TPM. Ignoring all other words, including Cato which is the name of a Roman politician, and Neimodia which evokes Leonard Nimoy, who was of Russian Jewish ancestry. Remind me what the complaint is, again?

 

Where have I made any claims about how many people did or did not find this offensive? If no such claim has been made why would I need to prove that point? I've been clear this is my own opinion. I thought this was a discussion forum where we give our opinions ?

If you're interested though there are plenty of articles & discussion online about this issue, including about the Neimoidians as an example.

Finally the suggestion that "white people" shouldn't look inward & discuss & evaluate themselves & how they refer to other races in movies & art is a very poor one IMO. Surprised to hear it coming from you Cryo.

"Kato" is famously Japanese. So on top of all of the other points you'd give someone a pass bcs they changed the letter "k" with "c" which produces the same sound when pronounced! How about Deko, Koru & Koto-Si. They Asian sounding enough?
Also part of the old Western method of Asian stereotypes was to bundle in elements from various East Asian cultures. That's part of the ignorance. But you're going to argue that bcs some elements are Japanese, some are Indonesian & they deliberately used a Thai accent that's all ok? Not specific enough? There's no such thing as a general Asian stereotype? That's like saying negative African stereotypes are ok if you borrow from Nigerian, Zulu, Zaire & Kenyan culture & bundle it all together. Many people would actually find that more offensive.

No one would ever be guilty of racial stereotypes with your way of interpreting things. You'd make it far too easy. It would be open season.

 

"George and Rick listened to all kinds of different actors from different countries voicing the words that I had spoken on the set, and eventually they decided on a Thai accent. It was very strange, because I could see all the scenes that I was in, but with this Thai actor speaking the lines I had spoken, trying to do my intonations with a heavy Thai accent--and then I had to learn his accent and re-record it. It was the most bizarre process."
http://web.archive.org/web/20080305140705/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/profile/f20020530/indexp4.html

NOTE: This quote was not in the post when I initially hit the Reply button.

Okay, so through Carson's description we see there are Thai elements to the Neimodeans (Gunray's accent). There are also Indonesian elements ("Pak-Pak"). Also Roman ("Cato"). Also Maori ("koru"). Also Russian Jewish ("Nimoy"). Also possibly French ("deco"). None of those is Japanese, which upthread was the firm conviction of Darth Downunder.

Instead we have a generic foreign flavor which is ambiguously Asian/Mediterranean/Russian and is likely intended to evoke an exotic feel in a largely Western (meaning Euro-American)-themed fantasy story. Moreover, the criticism of this Asian influence in the Neimoideans ignores the Asian influences in Amidala's costume and make-up, in the Wookiees' treehouses, in the Jedi robes and general timbre of their philosophies, and in the Asian-American Naboo pilot -- all of which are heroic characters, not villains or bad people, but positive role models showing exemplary ethics and morals, and admirable traits such as compassion and courage. In a series that is openly about loyalty, friendship, familial love, forgiveness and unity. Could someone remind me what the problem is again?

 

Ha! Ok, there's no Asian inference at all in these characters with their dodgy Asian accents & all of the other things. Let's leave it at that. This isn't something we should badger each other about.
Agree to disagree

 

Excuse me? Where did I say that? Please don't condescend or put words in my mouth.

A process of "looking inward" -- indeed, in seriously evaluating anything, really -- should always be accompanied by data and appropriate evidence.

The Neimoidian issue, to me, looks more like white people speaking on behalf of Asian people, and getting a little ahead of themselves.

And even more, of firing back at TPM and George Lucas after the fact, in order to explain away their frustration and disappointment, and in signalling to others that they "get" how uncool/shameful it is to like the prequels; or to have given their emotions and money away when they were younger and more ignorant.

Your mileage may vary.

 

Your comments such as "this is just white people talking about it and getting mad on their behalf: a slightly racist notion in itself" implied to me that it's less appropriate for "white people" to present a view about this. I don't know how else to read your comment. You even suggest that a "white person" taking exception to a perceived racial stereotype of another race is somehow racist itself!

Apologies if I've misunderstood you.

Not if someone's giving an individual opinion & not suggesting it's anything more than that. Everyone who has given an opinion here on either side has done that. We don't need data & evidence to prove that this is what we think. Do we?

Speaking of opinions, I think this one is reasonable: http://www.thenation.com/article/racial-ventriloquism/

 

Do you have an Australian accent, and if so, would you be adverse to voicing a Star Wars villain?

 

No offence Ken, but your arguments on this particular topic are simplistic & child-like.

 

Getting offended on behalf of others, and not even checking to see if they're offended, has always seemed a little weird, to me: a soft fascism.

People aren't operating on evidence, but on ideology. And that's problematic, to me.

Opinions aren't all created equal. Evidence should support an opinion where possible. Especially on a sociological topic, in my view.

Also, strangely, you are happy to go trawling for evidence to support your own contentions, and have adduced various pieces of data in service of that. But not on the critical matter of what other people -- Asian people -- actually think about these allegedly offensive creations.

Further, you wrote in brackets, at the end of a reply, "apologies to anyone who finds this talk offensive", as if people are so thin-skinned, and the issue of racism in TPM so hurtful, that you had to qualify your remarks and your presence in this conversation.

And people find all sorts of things offensive. So what? How about establishing proof, first of all, of actual offence. And second, of actual harm. Because I haven't even seen good evidence for the former, let alone the latter, yet.