PT The Phantom Menace - Is It Racist?

Let's get more nuanced. Would you be against Jackie Chan voicing a Star Wars villain?

 

Like I said, any one or two of that list taken alone isn't a big deal. It's the combination. If the Chan villain had all of those other elements it would be pretty ordinary - but that's just my opinion. You're free to disagree.

Wow. I haven't come across many who argue that you need to be part of the racial group that you consider to be slighted to find it offensive. If you find it offensive you're not being offended "on behalf" of anyone. You're offended for yourself. Because of your own standards & what you believe in. We really are screwed if we just leave taking up causes to those who are directly affected.

That said I haven't suggested that this particular issue is anywhere near that extreme. I specifically said this isn't a case of deliberate racism or purposefully offensive stereotyping. I said there are some examples of poor decisions & poor taste, & I stand by that. I don't need to prove that's my opinion. I'm free to offer it, especially in a discussion thread that is asking us that very question.

 

You can be offended by the lights of your own standards. I haven't said otherwise.

What seems a bit ornery, though, is the presumption that others share your offence. Which always accompanies topics like these.

And I said before that you were entitled to your view.

The issue -- for me -- lies in the implicit notion that others must share your offence in some way; in order for a statement like "X is offensive to Y" to be truly valid.

 

You can't outright accuse something of being racist and then backpedal with the "well that's my opinion" reasoning. Either there's solid evidence or there isn't. With only feelings and opinions to go off of, we have this lynch mob mentality that it's okay to outright accuse these movies with pretty heinous accusations with literally no evidence. I'm sorry, but racism is a real issue still alive in the world today, and trivializing it with petty accusations about a fantasy film kind of irks me.

 

Implicit notion? The thread asks a question. People have answered based on their own interpretation & have given their reasons. You're free to disagree which you have. I'm not seeing a problem.

The problem is the evidence can be interpreted differently. Is there ever something iron clad & black & white someone can point to with these issues? I've given the best explanation for my opinion as I could & have gone into some detail. I also clearly said from the start that I don't consider this intentional racism.

If opinions on both sides aren't welcome then why have the thread question?

 

Well, I don't want to come across as overly dogmatic, either.

So I'll leave you to your opinion. People are clearly never going to drop this issue.

 

I've read this entire thread and have participated as well. I feel like I don't want to believe that TPM contains a few racially insensitive moments, but the evidence could be sufficient to confirm that it does.
I never thought it did, although many people I know criticised the portrayal of the Neimoidians and Binks at the time of release.
It seems we've all agreed that nothing was done intentionally and that we all perceive things differently.
I respect both points of view and appreciate most of what everyone has been saying . It's ok to disagree.

 

Agreed, I've tried to not shove my opinion down anyone's throat. If I have I apologize.

 

Respectful end.

 

I've also read the last few pages. I have to admit that the Neimoidians are a bit on the nose. Getting Silas Carson to mimic an Asian accent wasn't a great call. I think with all of the other Asian allusions they should have gone with non-Asian accents. I think that's what has pushed this close to or over the line. But...to answer the thread I'd still say "no". Not quite but very close.

 

Yes. The accent is what makes me question their judgement. Why even include anything that could be an issue?
Palp Fiction

 

For the record, all they ever said on the topic was they wanted him to speak like a foreigner speaking English. Never referred to as an Asian accent, which I'm not even sure is a proper term.

 

SlashMan
What does the accent sound like to most listeners?

 

Agreed. "First world problems" in every sense of the term.

 

No they got a Thai actor in & Carson was asked to mimic his Asian accent:
"George and Rick listened to all kinds of different actors from different countries voicing the words that I had spoken on the set, and eventually they decided on a Thai accent. It was very strange, because I could see all the scenes that I was in, but with this Thai actor speaking the lines I had spoken, trying to do my intonations with a heavy Thai accent - and then I had to learn his accent and re-record it. It was the most bizarre process."
http://web.archive.org/web/20080305...episode-ii/bts/profile/f20020530/indexp4.html

 

Good research then.

 

Seems they deliberately based these guys on Asians. They must just think the Niemoidians don't constitute a negative stereotype.

 

That they all just sound bitter because they got cut short, is just your fan fantasy.

You're talking about main actors being nicer... could it be that they were in a more cordial relationship with Lucas, you know, being main actors, have been treated nicer, or maybe feel a greaer responsibility not be NOPE? The "jealousy" explanation may be the most satisfying to you, but it's not the only one - perhaps even the worst.

Stamp wasn't paid for a pick-up and got a very, very lame present, so he makes fun of that.
Serafinowicz is friends with Simon Pegg, and they all are from that subculture / with that mindset that the prequels didn't appeal to them at all. He's also probably somewhat of a social liberal, or he wouldn't be saying that stuff - and, to his credit, he expressed that mindset of his with lightness and humor, to entertain his audience, and not some bitter condemnation.
In that environment where he said that, everyone agrees that this is racist, treats it as a given - so jokes about it are funny to them.

Wow that's a lot of salt.
Pegg is doing fine for himself, very fine - if you don't like the idea of an anti-prequeler doing fine, then that's on you.
David Tennant, another broke actor you can see around food stamps on occasion, what a prick for having an opinion.

Well you seem to be the same type as Serafinowicz, why are you even arguing with him.
I'm sure all those famous black and gay and female actors benefit from this anti-black, anti-gay, anti-female culture while being the top superstars of the world - if only they had any self-awareness.

LMAOFAOFAFAOFAOLMAOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOROFLMFAO, really? You're really going with this?
The media doesn't value their voices more than others when it comes to espousing social liberal / progressive talking points - in fact, the prevailing meme in that area is that those with the "disprivilege" have a more relevant voice, and the privileged listen.

Not everyone finds TPM uplifting - apparently, those people in the podcast don't.
It's 2/3rds detached and stoic, and 1/3rd loud and childish - not everyone is into that. The latter, I'm not into - I don't find "yapeeeee!" uplifting.

Sheer brilliance!!!!
[/QUOTE]
It's as brilliant as those posts above trying to paint him as some kind of moral role model or whatever, when he's really just a sympathetic halfwit and that's that.

Lol he doesn't lead the Gungans valiantly into battle.

To call his clumsy, hyperactive nature "bestial" or "instinctual", doesn't seem to fit - but he only has like one scene where he stops being those things.

Don't seem to remember the latter.

Lol he's not the only non-human senator.

Yea, I'm sure this has to do with slave and exile. When you're not let in the room where the president and prime minister discuss politics, I'm sure it's because you're a TFNer.

LMAO that's noe the tone they went with. And Amidala trusts in the other Gungans, not him.

And here you are!

WOW YOU'RE CORNY - no wonder you like Jar Jar LOL!
Children can be as petty and petulant as adults, and I don't need to adopt any childish mindset in order to avoid being a liberal zealot looking for bigotry everywhere (it suits them), like you.

Well, you're opting to punish the innocents so the guilty can't get away; I'm opting for more enlightened principles, to each their own

Also keep in mind that people like, insisting on taking these things more seriously, also give those racists more power - but don't let that stop you from feeling self-righteous and upstanding or anything.

I can do that better than you.

Yea, but in this case if it doesn't offend those, it's not an issue at all.
And even if it does.

Cause they're not all cowards catering to the demands of hysterical people?

 

Why are you bringing politics into this?

At least Darth Downunder and I can disagree in a relatively civil manner. You could learn a thing or two from him.

 

Cryogenic you know better than to get into a debate with some wet behind the ears Youngling

 

This thread is full of greedy squabbling delegates.

 

That line is from the start of the movie. It has nothing to do with the specific section we're talking about. But well done anyhow, because all you have done is cite another moment where Jar Jar proves useful and does help the protagonists (without, I might add, being "forced").

At what point does "I need your help" constitute an order? Did Amidala say "Give me your help"? Do I really need to explain the difference?

Even if Amidala had said "give me your help", he's still not forced to comply.

It might have served you well to remember the actual lines of dialogue:

JAR JAR : Dare-sa nobody dare. Some kinda fight, meesa tink.
CAPT. PANAKA : Do you think they have been taken to camps?
OBI-WAN : More likely they were wiped out.
JAR JAR : Mesa no tink so. When in trouble, Gungans go to sacred
place.
QUI-GON : Do you know where they are, Jar Jar?
JAR-JAR: Come on, meesa show you.

It's really not a continuation. If Jar Jar was acting against his own will, at what point in the scene is he forced to relay a) that the gungans have a place where they can hide, and b) that he knows where said place actually is.

I never said or implied he was "noble". I actually referred to him as an idiot:

You replied:

Who's grasping at straws now?

 

1) At the beginning, he "helps" after being persuaded to.
He brings up the city completely on the fly, without any discernable motivation to "help".

I thought we were talking about the whole movie.

2) I was talking about persuasion, not sure why you're talking about orders.

3) Wow you're just strawmanning at this point - his liberty / knowledge were never questioned.
Your excerpt proves my point: he's agreed to look for the tribe, so now looking for the other place they might be is the continuation. He responds to the dialogue, hardly "initiative".

4) I said his presence is useful, not him as an individual.
He knows basic things like where his home is.

 

I appreciate your willingness to let the argument lie, but the bolded sentence is begging for clarification. I acknowledged the Asian influences in the Neimoideans in the post right above yours (see bolded portions below). However, you're continuing to ignore and neglecting to address their other, non-Asian influences and you're ignoring the Asian influences in the heroic characters. Why?

 

The only way I can think of a character not being of any use but their presence being of use were if that character's body were to be used merely as some sort of human shield. Jar Jar is far more than that. He provides knowledge and insight and is able to act as a link which helps to bring two disparate species together. We have cited many examples of where he does this, not merely by only being present.

I'm still unsure as to why you think the motivations for Jar Jar's assistance matter all that much with regards to the original point, but even then, I think we have proven claims that he is "easily persuaded" to do the things he does are unfounded. Respectfully, I think we're probably better off leaving this where it is before it becomes tiresome and repetitive (if it hasn't already).