The Proliferation of 'pocket' Super Star Destroyers - thoughts on the implications of recent canon

Probably because they no longer exist.

 

"The ship was colloquially known as a "Super Star Destroyer" because the Imperial Navy listed it as a "Super-class Star Destroyer" in budget requests to hide its true nature from the Imperial Senate. Even the ship's size was reported incorrectly to conceal its role from oversight committees. Although the official designation was changed by the time the Executor was operational, the phrase "Super Star Destroyer" stuck, and it was even applied to later vessels such as the Sovereign-class and Eclipse-class." - WOTC's Starship Battles Preview 1
Apparently the Executors were officially designated "Super-class" during the early days of its existence, changed sometime before the Executor launched - so the usage of the term isn't incorrect, just out of date. "Super Star Destroyer" is the colloquism.

 

The lack of SSD at those battles is precisely what got people thinking that either the Defiant or the Stalwart was the SSD - we know the Empire *has* one, but it didn't show up here. I think the first speculation about one of these ships being an SSD was here, and though it was immediately refuted there, it soon came back and just kind of snowballed. (That thread also includes quite a bit of contemporary speculation on where that SSD came from, and what happened to it. It was a fun discussion at the time, and a good look at the state-of-the-Super-Star-Destroyer thought from half a decade ago.)

 

As I said, given the state the Remnant was in the best explanation for both the DW SSD and the one in Invincible that gets annihilated in the Battle of Roche is that the Empire reactivated some old Mandator-class ships from the Clone Wars era. The one at Bastion seems to be only in use as an orbit-docked receiving ship and and the Dominion, IIRC, was primarily used to transport the Imperial invasion force. Sort of like how in WWI and WWII the combatants hauled out obsolete battlewagons for use as bombardment ships for amphibious landings.

I have to admit, part of that explanation is because I want to minimize how many 19-kilometer Executor-class ships get completely punked in battle. We have enough trouble explaining how Lusankya, Iron Fist, and Knight Hammer got taken down.

 

Examining the quote from Destiny's Way:
"Their destination wasn't the planet at all but a Super Star Destroyer that stretched a full four kilometers left and right from the docking port, and which carried a crew larger than the population of cities."
And shortly after:
"They're trying to show us what valuable allies they'd make. Troops galore, a Super Star Destroyer, precious metals plating the furniture..."
My analysis would be that the SSD wasn't in regular usage as an orbiting transit station, but trotted out specifically to show to Leia and Han as a bargaining tool.

Reading back through Remnant, either (a) the SSD could've been destroyed at the battle of Bastion as the losses were 'heavy' or (b) the SSD could've been at Yaga Minor with the rest of the surviving fleet.
Going to check to see if TUF has anything.

 

One is understaffed, buried for almost a decade and not maintained, one is maintained but has to share minimal facilities with thousands of other warships, then destroyed by a fleet sent to hunt down its commander, and one is blown up by interal detonation of TIB Bombers due to sabotage. It's not that bad, the rest of the class are usually done in by fleets or similar-sized warships.

 

Read through TUF and Remnant again; Luceno doesn't mention anything about it in his "let's bring all the ships together" lists. With its non-appearance in Remnant as well, I'd assume that the ship was destroyed (or badly damaged enough that it couldn't participate in the final battles)

 

I would have thought that if the ship had survived, it would likely have been Pellaeon's preferred new flagship instead of the old ISD-I Right to Rule. The fact that the Bastion SSD, if present, didn't respond effectively (while floating in the bacta tank Pellaeon recalls that Chimaera and her crew were the only forces that fought effectively) and wasn't Pellaeon's chosen flagship suggests that it wasn't a new-build SSD or even an Executor. Tenuous logic, true, but it might indicate the ship was a Mandator that, although still powerful, wasn't up-to-date enough to make an effective command ship or rate a first-rank crew.

And yeah, at present we can say that the Lusankya, Iron Fist, and Knight Hammer had extenuating circumstances that may account for their defeats (and in the case of the latter two, I'm talking more about their inability to outright crush a lone Mon Cal star cruiser). I'd just rather avoid designating the Bastion SSD and the Dominion as Executor-class ships because their combat performance seemingly isn't up to par with the capabilities of the design.

 

Perhaps the SSD the Empire had was a complete bust against the Vong. I say this because of Pellaeon's desire to steer toward building smaller Star Destroyers as of Revelation.

There are still so many stories left to be told during the NJO.

 

Maybe Mon Calamari Star Cruisers are just of really, really, really high quality? Considering Mon Remonda engaged Iron Fist quite often, without ever being damaged bad enough to return to a shipyards for repair, Mon Remonda couldn't have been outclassed by Iron Fist too badly. It was enough to take out Iron Fist's shields, I think, but also its not like Mon Remonda was easily destroyed or anything by Iron Fist. Of course, most of the time Zsinj was running away, which doesn't really make Iron Fist look all that powerful... but I think that can be chalked up to Zsinj knowing that even if he stays around to blow up Mon Remonda, then Solo will bring in enough ships to pound on Iron Fist and blow it up. Or one could say that that was already the beginning of the philosophy of the New Republic making their ships more powerful rather than just making them bigger like the Empire did.

Although it still doesn't really make sense for the Remnant to bring out an old Clone Wars era ship, if just for the sake of having a big ship there. As Leia said, it was a show of force, to show how nice allies the Imperials would make, and as allies, they would want a share of the rewards. So for a true classic Imperial formation, best to have an Executor-class Super Star Destroyer there, rather than something that predates the Empire.

On the Mon Remonda thing, hm, come to think of it, Mon Remonda usually wasn't alone, but even alone, Mon Remonda usually wasn't blown to pieces in seconds in direct engagements with Iron Fist, so it was pretty formidable itself. Not on par with a star dreadnought of course, but still pretty powerful.

 

If we believe the stats, Mon Remonda was a 1200-meter Star Cruiser with the same armament but heavier shields and more efficient battery placement than the Rebellion-vintage ships. Galactic Voyager was about on a par with an ISD armament-wise, but they still should both have been slagged outright in a one-on-one shootout. About the only explanations there are a) low combat effectiveness due to poor crew or maintenance for the SSDs and/or b) the Star Cruisers were jinking and juking all over the map and were tough to hit. Iron Fist also had issues with trying to cover the near-helpless Razor's Kiss, trying to escape rather than win a standing fight, and fending off a mass starfighter attack.

It's not that farfetched that a Mandator would still be in operation. If you believe Curtis Saxton's figures, he estimates a Mandator-II was the most powerful combatant of the Clone Wars, and it's likely that it was a smaller granddaddy to the Executor (maybe even the source of that bloody 8-km size figure). Sixty years is not an unheard-of service life both within and without the GFFA, especially when you have a platform that's not much older than a VSD or early-mark ISD and supposedly has the raw firepower and weapons battery to take on multiple smaller warships.

 

The novel says nothing about it being an Executor-class vessel, nor is such needed for a brief display of power. This is a technologically stagnant galaxy, and has been so for 25,000 years. Even a ship from 30 to 20 years past would be almost brand-new given this circumstance. The Imperial-class is also a pre-Empire design, and they get showcased all the time.
Apparantly, the ship in the book is 8km long and not identified with any known Executors. It's up for grabs what class it is. =)

It, along with the also sparcely produced MC90s might be the direct precursors to the Nebula-class and Scythe-class, two compact warships that, due to their power requirements, are extremely expensive to produce, and therefore not often seen.

Well, given the author's own estimates for different ship types on his own site, the Mandator was likely to be larger than a 8km ship rather than exactly that size. There's a 10km Grade III battlestation mentioned in the same book, after all. And since the Starship Battles Preview 1 says the Executor's class was changed and its designation changed from a 19km Star Dreadnaught to an 8km Star Destroyer (eclipsing all other known Star Destroyer designs of the time), I assume the then-historic use of the former term was for ships bigger than 8km in length. The ruse wouldn't work if people were already aquainted with 8km Star Dreadnaughts.

We'd have this scenario:
Oversight Committee member: "Gee, it's 8km long. Wasn't that the size of the old Star Dreadnaughts? What are you up to?"
Instead of the one intended by the Navy:
Oversight Committee member: "Well, it's big for a Star Destroyer, and in peace time no less, but at least it's not the size of the old Star Dreadnaughts. Approved."

 

Doh, you're right, I forgot about that time on Coruscant. Although didn't the Wraith assassination occur in book 6? And then Mon Remonda went into drydock at the beginning of book seven, and then Piggy was injured, and then they brought Piggy along with them when they left.

I'm only a minor novice Fleet Junkie, but given the stats, shouldn't something like the Iron Fist be able to take out a Mon Calamari cruiser's shields pretty fast? A broadside from the Lusankya wrecked half the Freedom in Bacta War, and then another broadside took out the other half of the Freedom. Although it could be argued that the Lusankya wasn't at full capacity, perhaps undercrewed or something.

And what do you mean by "under its guns"? Or do you just mean that Mon Remonda was facing both Razor's Kiss and Iron Fist head-on, instead of being above or below a Star Destroyer? I remember someone, Melvar maybe, that noted that due to the angles, Mon Remonda had more guns to shoot at them then either Star Destroyer, which could only use whatever guns could swivel far enough forward to shoot Mon Remonda. Even then Iron Fist was able to take out Mon Remonda's engines relatively quickly. Though I think that kind of problem was cited in the Pellaeon class' design, that the different hull design was meant to get around that problem (of some guns only being able to swivel so far).

Honestly, still no idea about that SSD in Destiny's Way. Although given how bad shape the Remnant was in the Force Heretic trilogy, maybe the SSD was just lost in the early Yuuzhan Vong onslaught, considering they lost their capital planet pretty quickly.

 

A lot of the problems facing Executors, is that they often have so many weapons-systems buried throughout trenches, superstructure etc. The guns we see hit an X-wing and an A-wing in ROTJ, are positioned deep inside the "cityscape" of the Executor. We see them fire up into the space inbetween the high-rise buildings, barely enough leeway to do so. With lots of these positions being barred from hitting ships even to each side of the vessel, that takes away some of their potential. Unless enemy ships go above an Ex, they only have to contend with trench guns, projectile launchers and ventral batteries, which seem to be mostly geared towards point-defense outside the hangar bays.

 

Here's a theory for you about the Destiny's Way SSD. It's not actually a fully operational ship.

Think about it, if someone thinking about attacking a planet sees what seems to be a SSD in orbit, they'll think twice. Plus, it makes a nice show of force for potential allies.

They'd probably fully outfit the receiving area and have shields and some guns on it, but there'd be no need for engines if it's just used as a symbol. If it started out as an operational SSD, they could have used components from it as spare parts and the like.

If it wasn't mobile, that would explain why it wasn't mentioned as Pellaeon's flagship or as a major loss. Sure, it's still a big ship, but if it couldn't move and had a skeleton crew, it wouldn't be much more than a more intimidating Golan station.

 

That's an interesting theory, Ultima, it's possible. However, my belief is that it was a fully crewed and operational SSD, but the Empire was taken off-guard by the attack at Bastion. Also, we don't know how much fighting had ocurred before Luke and Mara arrived, for all we know, they had been fighting for days, and the casualties had already piled up, that's my thoughts.

 

That, or one of the Cardan-class military stations. They were good for defense, but of course couldn't be moved like a starship.

 

Could that SSD actually have been the Megador when it was under construction? The outer hull and key systems could have already been completed with much work left to do as of Destiny's Way. I can't remember if Megador's length was covered in DN or LOTF.

 

No, Megador has been pretty sparse on the details. But someone else did point out to me that its first appearance was actually in the GFFA Navy, not the Remnant - something I hadn't noticed over Pellaeon commanding the vessel. However, since Megador has exclusively appeared in Denning's writings, it's probable we'll see more of it in the FotJ series. (considering the description of having "five times the firepower of an ISD-II" - a slight alteration on a familiar phrase - suggests to me that it's a Ex-II or something like that, but that's supposition on my end).

 

The Executor-class has 100 times the power generation of an ISD, according to Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Trilogy (either the ISD Mk.I or II, and the relative difference between them, was little over 20%, according to Cracken's Threat Dossier). I hardly doubt it's anywhere near a second generation of Executor-class ship. As warships, they can transfer almost all their power to the heavy guns, after all. (ROTS:ICS)
This thing is definitely not an Executor, if the 16 engines wasn't reason enough.
A much smaller design for sure.

 

Yeah, all references to the Megador have been to it as being part of the GA Navy. Either as Admiral Pellaeon's flagship or as part of Admiral Bwua'tu's combined fleet at Kuat during the Second Galactic Civil War.

Given the fact that Kuat seems to be the GA's #2 shipbuilder, it is very probable that it is a design that was first concieved during the Yuuzhan Vong War.

--Adm. Nick

 

I could see that - maybe something like the Sovereign design, minus the axial superlaser. (Or those mysterious KDY capital ships from the YJK series that the NR were building! )
Unfortunately the NJO series didn't really mention any new KDY capital ships for comparison that I could find... although a case for the Rejuvenator-class Star Destroyer is strong.

 

Theory:

In the aftermath of the Black Fleet Crisis the New Republic decided that the construction of a number of Star Dreadnought scale vessels was required to counter the periodic arrival of Imperial Executor-class vessels. The Viso**** Star Defender was developed as a direct counter to the former Imperial Flagships.

However, the New Class vessels and the construction of the 5th Fleet had reawakened the Fiscal Hawks within the Republic Senate. Deriding the notion of a major, Palaptinist arms build-up, they demanded the Republic find cheaper avenues of increasing the strength of the fleet, without Star Defenders filling the space-lanes.

Conclusion?
The navy pulled up the old intelligence files on the Super-class Star Destroyer and began to rework the design. The result was a new force of "Super Star Destroyers," that actually serve as pocket-Dreadnougths. Armed to parity with 5 Imperial-II Star Destroyers (250 HTL & 250 LTL), and given more engines to improve one of the more serious design flaws (slow impulse speed), the new class of vessels saw a limited run that actually cost the Republic less than a proposed Star Defender build-up.

Both sets of Hawks, Navy and Budget, were satisifed, and the new vessels began to see deployments in heavy combat regions.

Megador then is a modified Super-class Star Destroyer, operating under a "Republic-fied" class designation, like Star Rover or some such.



Back to reality:
The Executor does have ~100times the power generation of the Imperial-II, however it apparently is not worth 100 ImpStarDueces. Given that the Executor herself was killed by a small number of Star Cruises lead (possibly) by a pair of pocket-Star Battlecruisers, the RPG numbers might actually be correct.

The Executor is actually worth ~40 ISDIIs in offensive capability (making it an Oversector-level asset, which makes sense), but can be overpowered by a smaller force if heavy enough fire is concentrated in certain areas.

At range an Executor is deadly...closer in 5,000 Turbolasers don't help when you can only bring 50 to bear...