The Real Problem with Return of the Jedi were not the Ewoks

Ewoks i can handle and the same with jabba and palpatine. However this is not true for all. I have met people who say that Jabba and the ewoks wierded them out and caused them to dislike the film and therefore the saga. You need to know a lot of backstory to get the film. So if its ur first time, you might get a tad lost. That is the problem in my opinion.

 

That's also what makes him the worst. Without flaws, one can't relate to a character.

 

I think Luke has his share of human frailty. He's whiny for starters. He also shows stubbornness, impatience and petulance at times, not to mention a bit of a quick temper. And he fancies his sister.

Despite the greatness of the scene which reveals it, I think once "I am your father" had been uttered there was never really anywhere to go but downhill. From that point on the Vader character which had been such a dominant force in the saga was no more. From that flowed the Emperors rise as cackling pantomime villain, the whole Luke/Leia sibling thing, incest and then if that wasn't bad enough ... the prequels! Just joking.

 

I agee with this completely. Also, yes, Luke is definitely flawed, but he is clearly the god guy and, better yet, the everyman. The closest thing to a "perfect" character in the OT, in my opinion, is Princess Leia.

 

1) Does Luke Skywalker lie to, or deceive anyone? (Kenobi and Yoda)
2) Does Skywalker manipulate events or people to his advantage? (Jinn and Lando)
3) Does Luke kill/slash defenseless beings? (Anakin)
4) Does Luke join the cause with ulterior motives? (Solo, Akbar)

Well okay, he gives the Gammorean guards a force choke but releases it to gain access.
Skywalker says to Fortuna that he "will be rewarded". And he gets pissed as hell when pops says he's gonna do some bad things to his twin sister.

That's it. Seriously folks?

In ANH he whines, in ESB he follows the noble tradition of stubbornly "doing the right thing" versus "the greater good" - that Lucas set out as a theme since lil' Ani undertakes the pod race and refuses Jinn's order to stay in the Naboo fighter.

But I mean c'mon ... is that all you got on the greatest Star Wars hero off all time?
Luke Skywalker is not a rogue wheeler and dealer, he's not a guy in an ivory tower trying to run the universe, etc ...

He is the Elliot Ness of the saga. Surrounded by a horrible dad, unsavory friends, and a horrible war that killed his family.

Skywalker had every excuse to show some serious flaws and show us an ugly side.

He never did. I still related to him, and I still even look up to him.

 

I have no problems with Return of the Jedi. I love it. I love the Emperor's portrayal.

 

Just throwing something out here... Star Wars is myth, and as such, it's more about archetypes than characters. Luke isn't there to be likable or relateable (though all the better if you think he is - I do).

 

Yes, but archetypes aren't cardboard cutouts. Mythology has a great deal of gray and gray morality and characters change as a result of their experiences. Archetypes are only meant to be guides, not molds. And all guides and conventions work best when they are subverted, deconstructed, or subtly played with, not followed to the hilt. The reason slavishness to archetypes indicates cliche is that whoever created said archetype already took it to its logical extent...well, perhaps they created a codifying example, as Deconstruction often takes ideas to their logical extent to show how screwed up they are. Anyway, without characters that break out of the mold, people can't really hook onto anything in the film. Nothing particularly resonates and the film becomes dull.

 

Vader always served the Emperor in ANH so he was never the most dominant figure in the galaxy. Even Tarkin was ordering him around.

From that flowed the Emperors rise as cackling pantomime villain, the whole Luke/Leia sibling thing, incest and then if that wasn't bad enough .

Yeah, because you never see brother/sister incest in Greek or Norse mythology !

The Vader/Luke/Emperor scenes are my favorite in JEDI and always will be. If you wanted the cliche of Luke killing Vader, TS.

 

He was never the most dominant figure in the galaxy, but he was the most dominant, menacing figure in the films until the end of TESB. The Emperor was mentioned in ANH and Tarkin had a degree of authority over Vader, but in 1977 I don't think many people were having conversations about how badass those characters were. After the father revelation Vader was never the same in terms of his screen presence IMO. He was more obviously a victim and a pawn after that.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the mythologies. Do you mean that because incest is common in mythologies I shouldn't have a problem with it in SW? I don't have a problem with the incest as much as I do with the decision to make Luke and Leia siblings at all, their prior feelings for each other notwithstanding. After the suggestions of a romantic connection between them in the previous films, it just seems like an awkward bit of retro-fitting. Not that that's uncommon in SW.

The Luke / Vader / Emperor interplay at the end of Jedi are by far the best part of the film, I agree. That's not to say that another excellent ending couldn't have been written had the story taken various different turns.

 

In terms of the story in the movies Vader may have lessened but he is still in pop culture a powerful symbol of evil. Look at the guy who robbed a bank today wearing a Vader mask!

 

That is very true!

 

My local newscast prefaced the robbery clip with "The Empire is running low on money."

Good stuff.

Anyways the venom and criticism directed towards Luke Skywalker (the man, not the myth)
seems to have lessened with the current posters here.

To me, the Vader-haters (Tarkin's junkyard dog/Palp's stool pigeon) have way more ammunition to work with in OT than the Luke Skywalker bashers.

But what have you ...

 

Sounds rather dull to me, especially since I find the idea of a politician twisting a sith lord to his will out there even for star wars.

 

That's like saying Sergio Leone could never have topped The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, when in fact he did, with Once Upon a Time in the West.

With a better script, more inspired helmsman, and committed performances, ROTJ could have easily held its own against TESB.

 

Maybe if Sergio Leone was involved.

Once Upon a Time in West Endor...

 

Actually, I would have been fine with George Lucas--provided he cared at that point.

Incidentally, this is primarily why I rank ROTJ dead last in the series. It's paint-by-numbers Star Wars. (Even the dour AOTC took risks.)

 

I'm sad to say that after many years I've reached the same conclusion. Last time I tried to watch it I had to turn it off.

You're right of course. It could've been great in the right hands. The point I was making earlier is that it was going to be a very big challenge to make it so once the Vader character who had so dominated the series and the relationships of other characters to him, had been so dramatically changed. Some would argue that the PT is evidence of this.

 

Perhaps, but even as a PT fan, I'd tell you that the ROTJ Vader did not have to be rendered a slave to the Emperor. Look at what III, IV and V tell us...

ROTS -- Vader loses Padme, blames himself, has nothing to live for, becomes indentured to Palpatine

ANH -- Vader remains indentured to Palpatine, serving as his enforcer

TESB -- Vader discovers Padme had a surviving son, (partially) breaks free from Palpatine, hatches a plot involving his assassination


Now what if instead of reverting back to slave status, Vader instead became more independent than ever? He renounces Palpatine altogether, initiates his plan to dismantle his regime, and offers his son a decidedly more heart-rending temptation for crossing over to the Dark Side.

Darth Vader did not have to be castrated for this story to be resolved.

 

Eh, Vader's character was bound to be one-upped once Palpatine showed up, just by sheer force of personality. ROTJ only fell apart once the marketing brigade took over with the Ewoks. AOTC on the other hand was a combination of second-grade level political dialogue, mindless action, and a love story lifted from Shakespeare and bowdlerized in all its sickening, saccharine glory. Risks or not, ROTJ was the superior film, though it is certainly dead last in the OT.

 

Vader didn't need to be castrated, you're right. He never was number 1 in the chain of command, but that didn't stop him being number one bad guy up until the end of TESB. It would've been good if he could've continued in that role. To me, Palpatine is an inferior villain to Vader. The latter is ambiguous and menacing whereas the former is a caricatured mix of the Grim Reaper and Monty Burns.

Castrated Vader or not though, the problem with ROTJ after "I am your father" was that the key relationships upon which the first two films had been built were irrevocably altered and the challenge was how to move on without drifting into soap opera material and/or be seen to be forever trying to logically explain inconsistencies away. Not only is Darth Vader your father, but Leia is your sister and guess what? The whole saga to date has been a dream and Bobby Ewing isn't dead after all!

 

As opposed to ROTJ, a combination of a second-grade level retread of ANH, mindless action, and a redemption story lifted from Dante and bowdlerized in all its sickening, saccharine glory.

Plus, it's ugly to look at. Is this a Star Wars movie, or a BBC production?

 

Lifted from Dante? No, Dante's work was basically him journeying through the Christian cosmos, atoning for self-perceived sins and making judgment on the sins of past historical figures, many of whom were on the opposite side of the political spectrum from Dante during the 14th century political conflicts between the Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Emperors. It's a poem of self-discovery, not an epic conflict between good and evil. Now, if you were to say that GL lifted portions of ROTJ straight from Paradise Lost by Milton, then I'd say you're onto something. But there's nothing saccharine about a bloodbath in the kingdom of Heaven.

And ROTJ admittedly doesn't have glamorous locales. It goes from a gangster's palace in the middle of a hell-hole desert to an endlessly forested planet to the unfinished halls of Death Star II. There's no glamor because, frankly, these aren't that great to look at anyway. Film shouldn't be eyecandy anyway. I say up the ugliness, and the grittiness.

 

IIRC: That was the real problem with Return of the Jedi, Lucas knew he couldn't pull it off the Wookiees, so he settled on the mini-me version of walking carpets.

 

But then we would have Ewoks in Revenge of the Sith. Imagine the slapstick humor Lucas could have added with Ewoks and the "stupid" battle droids!